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Old
03-29-2013, 09:41 PM
  #301
Ski
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Uhh, I like what Murray has done w/the farm..

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Old
03-29-2013, 09:45 PM
  #302
DarrenPuppa4Prez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
If BM had been fired 18 months ago, it would have been deserved.

I have always given him his due credit for the things that he is good at. Bumping this thread serves what purpose? To be an "in your face" jerk fest now that BM has ridden a pretty long hot streak?

Now isn't 18 months ago. Today's reality doesn't erase anything.

Learn to admit when you're wrong. Textbook fairweather fan, Johnson.

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03-29-2013, 09:45 PM
  #303
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We are the only team with a player who hasn't scored 10 goals this season. Fire Murray.

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Old
03-29-2013, 10:00 PM
  #304
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That was a painful read.

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Old
03-29-2013, 10:05 PM
  #305
John Holmes*
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If I was wrong, I would admit it.

The coaching carousel, getting beat up in almost every trade, missing the playoffs 2 out of 3 years.

Yeah there was no reason for BM to get canned.

By the way, the team is still very much a work in progress. Maybe you should wait a while before busting out the victory dances.

Many GM's have been fired for less.

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Old
03-29-2013, 10:11 PM
  #306
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I always wondered why you guys changed your usernames so often.

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Old
03-29-2013, 10:14 PM
  #307
Do Make Say Think
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
If I was wrong, I would admit it.

The coaching carousel, getting beat up in almost every trade, missing the playoffs 2 out of 3 years.

Yeah there was no reason for BM to get canned.

By the way, the team is still very much a work in progress. Maybe you should wait a while before busting out the victory dances.

Many GM's have been fired for less.
I agree with him

Things we're looking bad back then, real bad.

After Murray went into rebuild mode at the trade deadline in 2011 things have looked good: Murray has a plan and he's sticking to it.

Back then he was just doing everything he could to keep the boat afloat and it wasn't working, it felt very scatterbrain whereas the whole organization seems much more focused now; well everyone except the owner that is!

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Old
03-29-2013, 10:38 PM
  #308
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A GM's effect on a team is a hysteresis. You can't judge it immediately. So it's really funny to see John Holmes defend his position on firing Murray 18 months ago by saying that Murray had earned more respect since then.

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Old
03-29-2013, 10:52 PM
  #309
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Fire Murray? Murray's on fire.

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Old
03-29-2013, 10:57 PM
  #310
costermonger
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I always thought the "Murray took a contender and wrecked it" argument was total bull**** and regularly argued against it. That crap started here in early 2008 and persisted pretty much continually.

But if you'd asked me in January or February of 2011, I'd have said Murray's days were numbered. Melnyk didn't see it that way though and that summer Murray hired Maclean.

I'm sure glad he wasn't fired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Back then he was just doing everything he could to keep the boat afloat and it wasn't working
This is very true, and while we all know with the benefit of hindsight it might've been the best option, but imagine Murray had blown the team up and started a rebuild in 2008-2009? As it was many fans were plugging their ears and yelling "nah nah nah can't hear you" about the state of the farm system. He'd have been crucified.


Last edited by costermonger: 03-29-2013 at 11:03 PM.
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Old
03-29-2013, 11:07 PM
  #311
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They certainly are playing the way CC wants them to. They ARE sticking to a system out there. Its just a terrible system.

I dont buy that players are great on other teams, and then garbage here just because. Thats on CC. Kovalev is suddenly useless on the PP? Yeah right. Gonchar is suddenly useless on the PP? Yeah right. Michalek cant produce anything anymore? Yeah right.

The system works great if you are RKN, but thats about it. The team had a boost when CC was hired because it was a change. That has long since worn off. When EVERYONE is underproducing something is wrong.


I still say Murray wasnt allowed to do what he wanted until Melnyk caved, and then we saw Fisher and company go. He didnt want to keep poushing a team he knew wasnt good enough, but Melnyk did. The turnaround was too fast. We heard Melnyk approved the rebuild and within a few days Murray had made a number of deals. He knew what he wanted to do, but was being pushed by Melnyk to be a contender. Kovalev is a prime example of this. Everyone and their mother knows that was a Melnyk signing, not Murray.

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Old
03-29-2013, 11:08 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
If I was wrong, I would admit it.

The coaching carousel, getting beat up in almost every trade, missing the playoffs 2 out of 3 years.

Yeah there was no reason for BM to get canned.

By the way, the team is still very much a work in progress. Maybe you should wait a while before busting out the victory dances.

Many GM's have been fired for less.
And many fans could see the good, and the amazing base he was building.

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Old
03-29-2013, 11:10 PM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
I agree with him

Things we're looking bad back then, real bad.

After Murray went into rebuild mode at the trade deadline in 2011 things have looked good: Murray has a plan and he's sticking to it.

Back then he was just doing everything he could to keep the boat afloat and it wasn't working, it felt very scatterbrain whereas the whole organization seems much more focused now; well everyone except the owner that is!
Quote:
Originally Posted by costermonger View Post
I always thought the "Murray took a contender and wrecked it" argument was total bull**** and regularly argued against it. That crap started here in early 2008 and persisted pretty much continually.

But if you'd asked me in January or February of 2011, I'd have said Murray's days were numbered. Melnyk didn't see it that way though and that summer Murray hired Maclean.

I'm sure glad he wasn't fired.



This is very true, and while we all know with the benefit of hindsight it might've been the best option, but imagine Murray had blown the team up and started a rebuild in 2008-2009? As it was many fans were plugging their ears and yelling "nah nah nah can't hear you" about the state of the farm system. He'd have been crucified.
As I said above, Im CONVINCED Murray wasnt allowed to rebuild. Melnyk pushed for us to get stop gaps and try to keep contending. Murray is way too smart to have wanted that. Ive said it for years, and nothing has come along to change my opinion.

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Old
03-29-2013, 11:45 PM
  #314
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You can draw some interesting parallels between that 07 Ducks team he helped build and our current team.

Built from the net out, elite defense, good mix of youth and vets.

Karlsson is our Niedermayer. Zibanejad and Silfverberg are our Perry/Getzlaf. Anderson is our Giguere. Alfie is our Selanne. Latendresse is our Penner (lol in a few different ways). Smith is our Rob Niedermayer or Sami Paulsson.

The big difference is Murray will get to see this one through. He needs to make his "Pronger" move, something that will put us over the top, the final piece. Instead of that being an elite defenseman, I think it'll be a scorer. He's been patient and stockpiled, the assets and cap space to do so. With the cap coming down, its going to be an opportune time to do so in the offseason.

Big things are on the horizon for this team. Thank you, Bryan, Tim and Pierre.

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Old
03-29-2013, 11:57 PM
  #315
costermonger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
As I said above, Im CONVINCED Murray wasnt allowed to rebuild. Melnyk pushed for us to get stop gaps and try to keep contending. Murray is way too smart to have wanted that. Ive said it for years, and nothing has come along to change my opinion.
Oh, I totally believe that. Melnyk is a fan first and foremost, and fans saw the 2007 run as proof that we were a move or two away. Meanwhile, back in reality, that cup run was basically the result of a bunch of players at their peak at the same time. Check out the stats; the only players who didn't hit their career production peak within a year of the 2007 SCF were MacAmmond & Comrie (before 05-06) and Fisher & Vermette (after 07-08). I'd say that at this point, only Spezza has a chance of ever eclipsing that performance.

And CC flamed out because (among other reasons) he had no plan B. He was successful exactly as long as it took other teams to figure out how to beat his system, and he never, ever adjusted.

That, and the players clearly hated his guts.

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Old
03-30-2013, 03:50 AM
  #316
John Holmes*
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Yeah because Melnyk clearly enjoys writing big fat checks for loser teams.

You guys are delusional. Why is Murray never accountable for any bad decision?

Kovalev? That's Melnyk's fault.
Heatley? His hands were tied.
Leclaire? We couldn't keep Vermette anyway.

Then there was the coaching carousel. Somehow Murray skates on that one too since the 4th time was a charm.

Accountability works both ways.

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Old
03-30-2013, 04:01 AM
  #317
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It's fun revisiting old threads and see all the panicky or overoptimistic posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freerider View Post

Trades that make a difference don't happen anymore...
Anderson & Turris say hi.

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Old
03-30-2013, 04:15 AM
  #318
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Originally Posted by dennilfloss View Post
It's fun revisiting old threads and see all the panicky or overoptimistic posts.



Anderson & Turris say hi.
+1..

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Old
03-30-2013, 07:04 AM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Yeah because Melnyk clearly enjoys writing big fat checks for loser teams.

You guys are delusional. Why is Murray never accountable for any bad decision?

Kovalev? That's Melnyk's fault.
Heatley? His hands were tied.
Leclaire? We couldn't keep Vermette anyway.

Then there was the coaching carousel. Somehow Murray skates on that one too since the 4th time was a charm.

Accountability works both ways.
those trades weren't bad. whenever we get a pick, our scouting staff goes to work. we won that vermette trade. kovalev was totally on the euge. we got a 30 goal scorer for heatley.

coaches are all on him though. i'm a big murray supporter, but his coaching decisions were really, really bad. glad we have a great one now.

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Old
03-30-2013, 07:52 AM
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATdaisuki View Post
those trades weren't bad. whenever we get a pick, our scouting staff goes to work. we won that vermette trade. kovalev was totally on the euge. we got a 30 goal scorer for heatley.

coaches are all on him though. i'm a big murray supporter, but his coaching decisions were really, really bad. glad we have a great one now.
Just curious, how have we won the Vermette trade? Im sure Lehner will turn out great but at this point right now... We havent won anything... Unless you consider LeClaire's tenure here a "win"

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Old
03-30-2013, 07:54 AM
  #321
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Funny, bringing up the LeClaire trade as a knock on Murray. The second round pick that went our way in that trade ended up being Lehner.

I think Murray has an above average trade record overall. If I was to knock anything it would be his free agent signings, but then again UFA signings almost always involve overpaying for players who are getting old. The drafting has been at an elite level, and that is what will push this team over if it wins the cup in the next 5 years. The selection of coaches has been hit or miss up until now, but I would argue that Murray was exactly correct in identifying what the team needed when he went out and got Paul MacLean. At this point I would consider the overall coaching from the big team all the way down to Bingo to be elite.

So my report card for Murray would be:
Trades: B
FA signings: D
Drafting: A
Coaching: B (overall) but an A+ in the current term

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Old
03-30-2013, 08:00 AM
  #322
costermonger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend Killer View Post
Just curious, how have we won the Vermette trade? Im sure Lehner will turn out great but at this point right now... We havent won anything... Unless you consider LeClaire's tenure here a "win"
Would you trade Lehner for Vermette today?

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Old
03-30-2013, 08:13 AM
  #323
John Holmes*
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Resurrecting this thread was a dumb move. These arguments have been beaten to death. Nobody is changing their minds, and I for one am sitting out the rest of this circle jerk.

Aim carefully.

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Old
03-30-2013, 08:35 AM
  #324
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Nononono


TRADE SPEZZA AND KARLSSON!
I'm glad my sense of humour was still good back then.

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Old
03-30-2013, 10:03 AM
  #325
thinkwild
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It is kind of humorous when many of those calling for Murrays head years ago, presumably in the name of accountability, now don’t see why this thread would be resurrected, and at Easter no less.

I’d think there are very valuable lessons to learn. Why, when after signing most of our stars to their first ufa contracts as his first order of business, did he try he then try to keep team continuity by hiring Paddock, hire from within for Clouston, bring in Jason Smith for character, replace Heatley with Kovalevs two year contract?

Of course it’s easy to say all those were wrong moves, and they didn’t work and claim it is in the name of accountability you wanted him fired. But that would’ve thrown the baby out with the bath water, would’ve been judging a GM by his first two years on the job, and would’ve failed to recognize the necessity of building up from within before the big rebuild will have an effect, and perhaps most importantly, when you can properly evaluate a GM.

Now suggesting Murray should’ve been fired was right even in hindsight per se shows why resurrecting this thread is necessary to me. You still appear to have some learnin to do. Why were you so wrong? Why could you not see the forest for the trees. Why were you unable to recognize an exceptional GM when we had one and were willing to fire him because you were angry, frustrated, and wanted a scape goat and quick answers? Will you continue to be so wrong in the future in a similar situations? Enquiring minds want to know.

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