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Old
03-30-2013, 04:45 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
All I want to know is why does it matter that Nash is a more complete offensive player than Gaborik - better stick handler, better danger, stronger etc... If those atributes do not reflect on the stat sheet? If these qualities led to him beig better shouldn't his gpg and ppg be higher? Puck possession and control and such don't mean much if you don't use it to convert on opportunities. Nash is certainly a more dynamic and exciting player to Gaborik but a better player throughout their careers? No way.
They certainly seem to. Just look at this season.

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03-30-2013, 04:46 PM
  #252
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All I want to know is why does it matter that Nash is a more complete offensive player than Gaborik - better stick handler, better danger, stronger etc... If those atributes do not reflect on the stat sheet? If these qualities led to him beig better shouldn't his gpg and ppg be higher? Puck possession and control and such don't mean much if you don't use it to convert on opportunities. Nash is certainly a more dynamic and exciting player to Gaborik but a better player throughout their careers? No way.
Don't be results oriented off of small samples. If you replace the word "last year" with "this year" in what you just said then it just favors Gaborik instead of Nash which indicates that point probably isn't too good

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03-30-2013, 04:49 PM
  #253
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It's wonderful that Gaborik was so good last year. It doesn't seem to be trickling in this season.

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03-30-2013, 05:15 PM
  #254
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Gaborik has 19 points in 33 games this year.
Nash had 20 points in 33 games last year from Nov 21 to Feb 3. (and now 28 in 29 this year)
Ovechkin had 22 in 31 last year from Oct 8 to Dec 17 (and now 32 in 33 this year)
Kovalchuk had 18 in 34 points two years ago from Oct 8 to Dec 26 (83 in 77 the year after)
Pat Kane had 19 in 33 games last year from Dec 26 to Mar 6 (42 in 33 this year)
Getzlaf had 19 in 32 games last year from Dec 10 to Feb 21 (38 in 34 this year)
Eric Staal had 20 in 36 last year from Oct 7 to Dec 27 (36 in 32 this year)
Perry had 20 in 30 from Dec 2 to Feb 10 last year (28 in 30 this year)
Elias had 24 in 36 games from Oct 8 to Dec 31 two years ago (78 in 81 the year after)
Hossa had 18 in 31 games from Oct 20 to Feb 9 (injuries in the middle) two years ago (77 in 81 the year after)

Small samples. You can always find subsets of data in a large dataset to show something like that. Just so happens Gaboriks poor start is at the beginning of a year and in a short year so the numbers aren't masked by previously good numbers. These are pretty much all guys who have been consistent 70+ point guys (almost with the exception of Nash even)

This is nothing new and not anything that hasn't happened lots of times before.

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03-30-2013, 05:20 PM
  #255
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My point is, Gaborik chose the wrong time to have a mediocre slump with numbers akin to the above players. Also, it matters than Nash is more complete because I believe it makes him the better player. Gaborik is obviously the better goal scorer but that's about it.

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03-30-2013, 05:23 PM
  #256
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And it even though it was nothing spectacular, Gaborik has had much more to work with in his career than Nash has had.

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03-30-2013, 05:26 PM
  #257
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You say it like Gaborik chose to have a slump. I just showed this is something that happens to players who are 70-80 point guys. It's math. It's statistics. It's essentially impossible to go 82 games with exactly 1 point each so they get bunched up into streaks. If you're a 100+ type guy you won't notice them as much because during your bad streaks you are still like a PPG player.

But what is Nash more complete at? It's not like he's a great defender. I can see someone like Marian Hossa still being really valuable during his scoring drought because he's great defensively so he's obviously contributing there. Why is Nash more complete simply because he plays a different type of style than Gaborik if that style isn't any more conducive to producing offense than Gaboriks?

What I am saying is, and is shown above, is just because you go through a situation like this certainly doesn't mean you're a bad player and done or anything - look at all of them - they all seem to have bounced back nicely and are right back to being around their regular games.

I mean if I wanted I could make the small sample even smaller and be like "Wow..Gaborik had 5 goals and 8 points in his first 7 games this year! What an amazing player. Nash with 1 goal and 6 points..meh..he controls the puck but really isn't able to put it in" Obviously this wouldn't be meaningful in anyway whatsoever but it's just a way you can make the data say what you want it to.

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And it even though it was nothing spectacular, Gaborik has had much more to work with in his career than Nash has had.
Cannot deny this.

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03-30-2013, 05:32 PM
  #258
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I don't expect Gabby to put points up in every game. His career is one big streaky jumble. I'd say Nash is more complete because he will throw down a check, he'll drop the gloves to defend himself, he can carry the puck in the offensive zone by himself. He draws opposing defensive schemes to him and opens up the ice for his line mates. He's just more dynamic. Hell, according to half this board, Gaborik can't even tie his own skates if he is playing on the LW as opposed to RW. (Hyperbole as I think its asinine too, but you get the jist).

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03-30-2013, 05:33 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Bob Richards View Post
And it even though it was nothing spectacular, Gaborik has had much more to work with in his career than Nash has had.
Not really. Nash had Carter and Prospal as his best linemates. Gaborik had Demitra and Brunette. Pretty much a wash.

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03-30-2013, 05:34 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Not really. Nash had Carter and Prospal as his best linemates. Gaborik had Demitra and Brunette. Pretty much a wash.
Carter was terrible in Columbus. If that was his best line mate, then I should set a charity event for him.

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03-30-2013, 05:35 PM
  #261
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Carter was terrible in Columbus. If that was his best line mate, then I should set a charity event for him.
Nash was terrible his last year in Columbus too. Pretty much that whole team was terrible besides Prospal.

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03-30-2013, 05:36 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Bob Richards View Post
I don't expect Gabby to put points up in every game. His career is one big streaky jumble. I'd say Nash is more complete because he will throw down a check, he'll drop the gloves to defend himself, he can carry the puck in the offensive zone by himself. He draws opposing defensive schemes to him and opens up the ice for his line mates. He's just more dynamic. Hell, according to half this board, Gaborik can't even tie his own skates if he is playing on the LW as opposed to RW. (Hyperbole as I think its asinine too, but you get the jist).
But what I want to know is what does that do? If he opens up ice for his linemates shouldn't we be seeing him racking up an incredible amounts of assists? Or is the team just going to get lots of goals with him on the ice that he doesn't get points on (Could compute this but I doubt it's tracked and it would take a lot of time to come up with). He most certainly is more dynamic and is clearly more exciting to watch but I just don't see all that stuff actually leading to more goals. By drop the gloves I assume you mean just push people around post whistle and such? Because I have no clue if he's fought before but him fighting would be a huge net negative to the team.

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03-30-2013, 05:36 PM
  #263
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And ****, I don't even know what I'm doing right now. I love Gaborik. He might be my favorite forward on the team but Christ, he needs to get his **** together.

I still believe that his shoulder surgery greatly effects him.

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03-30-2013, 05:37 PM
  #264
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4th line represents rock bottom for a goal poacher of his quality. Hopefully he gets some chances on the 2nd PP unit, that should be sporting Richards and Zucarello tonight.

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03-30-2013, 05:37 PM
  #265
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With the exception of last season, a majority of which we all know, Gaborik played with Stepan. Most of his 41 came from that.

Neither player were on particularly good teams. Minnesota had the better coaching of the two, and in such a strict defensive system, Gaborik still managed to carry (key word, carry) their offense and score 40-40-80 in it.

He also scored 40 here with Erik waiver wire Christensen and Vinny one leg Prospal.

The better linemates argument doesnt hold up well at all between the two. Nash had a great team in 2008-09 himself.

Gaborik's centers primarily in Minnesota were Walz and Brunette. The vast majority of his time here. He and Demitra were on and off between Rolston and Radivojevic.

The big goal scorers of the early 2000s (Nash, Gaborik, Kovalchuk) all were the sole offensive threats and cogs for their teams, however, Kovalchuk and Gaborik were far better and more talented in comparison to Nash.

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03-30-2013, 05:38 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Bob Richards View Post
And ****, I don't even know what I'm doing right now. I love Gaborik. He might be my favorite forward on the team but Christ, he needs to get his **** together.

I still believe that his shoulder surgery greatly effects him.

Amen.

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03-30-2013, 05:38 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
But what I want to know is what does that do? If he opens up ice for his linemates shouldn't we be seeing him racking up an incredible amounts of assists? Or is the team just going to get lots of goals with him on the ice that he doesn't get points on (Could compute this but I doubt it's tracked and it would take a lot of time to come up with). He most certainly is more dynamic and is clearly more exciting to watch but I just don't see all that stuff actually leading to more goals. By drop the gloves I assume you mean just push people around post whistle and such? Because I have no clue if he's fought before but him fighting would be a huge net negative to the team.
He can fight. I've seen it. It's nothing spectacular but I find it to be a bit of an incentive in a sense. I don't think you'll see others reap the benefits from his style as much this season because he gets paired with Richards and Gaborik a lot. Hagelin and Stepan seemed to gel nicely but then again, you do have a solid point with sample sizes.

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03-30-2013, 05:41 PM
  #268
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Well I hope he doesn't fight...def don't want him in the box for 5 minutes combined with the chance of an injury. Didn't know he's done so before.

All I am saying is basically be patient. These things happen and it's really nothing new. You could pick out a stretch of ~30ish games for pretty much any 75ish pt player and you'll find a time they produced like Gaborik is now. Obviously he has to play better but because he hasn't yet doesn't mean that he can't. As I've said before I really just think people are overreacting because of the short season this year so obviously everything is magnified and there's not much time left for him to turn it around. If this was a regular year there'd be another 50 games for him to get everything sorted out. Certainly the shoulder surgery could be a factor but playing him on the wrong side, second power play unit, and with joke linemates (pyatt and newbury...) really isn't going to help the matter.

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03-30-2013, 05:42 PM
  #269
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Hell SA, you don't know how badly I want to eat some crow served up by you and Gaborik if it means he finds his game again. It's just really frustrating watching him out there at times.

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03-30-2013, 05:42 PM
  #270
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Gaborik and Nash are wingers, and their primary objective as wingers is to score, and produce.

Just by watching the two play, their talent levels are similar, but I give the edge to Gaborik for his shot, vision and skating ability. Nash is the superior stickhandler by far, and also superior defensely (albeit not that much).

I still take the 3x 40 goal scorer in determining who is the better player. Gaborik has proven he doesnt need an elite center to play with, which is why I often find it mind-boggling why all the sudden he needs it here to produce?

Bottom line:

Gaborik - GPG - .441, PPG - .882

Nash - GPG - .428, PPG - .818

Its not a massive difference, but enough to determine IMO who is better.

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03-30-2013, 05:43 PM
  #271
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Maybe now we won't have to hear Sam say he's started skating recently countless times tonight

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03-30-2013, 05:44 PM
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyoooo View Post
Gaborik and Nash are wingers, and their primary objective as wingers is to score, and produce.

Just by watching the two play, their talent levels are similar, but I give the edge to Gaborik for his shot, vision and skating ability. Nash is the superior stickhandler by far, and also superior defensely (albeit not that much).

I still take 3x 40 goal scorer in determining who is the better player. Gaborik has proven he doesnt need an elite center to play with, which is why I often find it mind-boggling why all the sudden he needs it here to produce?
I don't think he needs an elite center, just one who can play a competent game of hockey. Putting him with Richards, Boyle and Newbury is just awful for anyone really.

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03-30-2013, 05:46 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Gaborik has 19 points in 33 games this year.
Nash had 20 points in 33 games last year from Nov 21 to Feb 3. (and now 28 in 29 this year)
Ovechkin had 22 in 31 last year from Oct 8 to Dec 17 (and now 32 in 33 this year)
Kovalchuk had 18 in 34 points two years ago from Oct 8 to Dec 26 (83 in 77 the year after)
Pat Kane had 19 in 33 games last year from Dec 26 to Mar 6 (42 in 33 this year)
Getzlaf had 19 in 32 games last year from Dec 10 to Feb 21 (38 in 34 this year)
Eric Staal had 20 in 36 last year from Oct 7 to Dec 27 (36 in 32 this year)
Perry had 20 in 30 from Dec 2 to Feb 10 last year (28 in 30 this year)
Elias had 24 in 36 games from Oct 8 to Dec 31 two years ago (78 in 81 the year after)
Hossa had 18 in 31 games from Oct 20 to Feb 9 (injuries in the middle) two years ago (77 in 81 the year after)

Small samples. You can always find subsets of data in a large dataset to show something like that. Just so happens Gaboriks poor start is at the beginning of a year and in a short year so the numbers aren't masked by previously good numbers. These are pretty much all guys who have been consistent 70+ point guys (almost with the exception of Nash even)

This is nothing new and not anything that hasn't happened lots of times before.

Your use of stats is always pretty cool to see.

Youre like the Elias Sports Bureau with this.

One major caveat however is that Gaborik's points this year are in bunches. Something like 10 games outta 32, if even that.

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03-30-2013, 05:47 PM
  #274
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I don't think he needs an elite center, just one who can play a competent game of hockey. Putting him with Richards, Boyle and Newbury is just awful for anyone really.

I remember the scouting report from Wild fans when we got him in 2009.

They all said he doesnt need an elite center to produce, or heavily rely on one. All Gaborik needs is someone who can keep up with him.

2009-10, Gaborik proved that.

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03-30-2013, 06:00 PM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyoooo View Post
Your use of stats is always pretty cool to see.

Youre like the Elias Sports Bureau with this.

One major caveat however is that Gaborik's points this year are in bunches. Something like 10 games outta 32, if even that.
Not sure if the other guys have done that and I don't feel like looking it up now with the game starting in a few but I remember Gaborik did that same thing with the points in extreme bunches two years ago and then was fine last year.

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