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Trade Targets (Part II)

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Old
03-30-2013, 06:08 PM
  #401
SJeasy
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
Without Boyle on D and JT up front this team is garbage. But everyone seems to want that soo....
Look, JT could open a bakery with playing turnover hockey like he is currently doing. Or, he could do a Santa Claus gig with all the gifts he gives to the other team. That is how he is playing now. Boyle is on a par with Matt Carle at his current level. It could be injuries, but it does not speak well to their aging well.

As of the Detroit game, Marleau/Couture was the #1 line, Pavs/Clowe was the #2. JT was #3. JT and Boyle are the critical factors on the PP and since just after the outset of the season, it is a bottomfeeder PP. That doesn't speak well to either of them as PP success is notoriously dependent on the play of the QBs no matter which team.

If they turn it around, they are critical, but even in the recent resurgence, their A game has been blatantly absent. I would put the recent resurgence on Pavs, Wingels and Couture and speaks well as to how the Sharks would compete with the complete absence of JT and Boyle.

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03-30-2013, 06:09 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
Meh. If he's the difference between Leblanc + 2nd and Koko + 1st, I'd probably let him go.
Freddie Hamilton is just as good as either of those prospects.

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03-30-2013, 06:09 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
For every "trade everyone, we don't want to be like Calgary." There should be a "look at Philly" counter argument.

Yes they got good pieces back for trading Carter and Richards, but honestly...they're a mess.
Perhaps the growing pains I mentioned? However, are they well set up for the future? Absolutely, at least up front. Not to mention that if not for all their injuries on D they may not be struggling at all.

Edit: Jux makes good points too.

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03-30-2013, 06:11 PM
  #404
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Perhaps the growing pains I mentioned? However, are they well set up for the future? Absolutely, at least up front. Not to mention that if not for all their injuries on D they may not be struggling at all.
One of the issues to any team is filling key positions with 82 game players. Philly blew it on defense. Being an 82gamer is frequently what separates the wheat from the chaff.

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03-30-2013, 06:12 PM
  #405
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Freddie Hamilton is just as good as either of those prospects.
Really? I don't follow other teams' prospects much. That really bums me out about Leblanc and Koko then. I thought they were both blue chippers.

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03-30-2013, 06:15 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Look, JT could open a bakery with playing turnover hockey like he is currently doing. Or, he could do a Santa Claus gig with all the gifts he gives to the other team. That is how he is playing now. Boyle is on a par with Matt Carle at his current level. It could be injuries, but it does not speak well to their aging well.

As of the Detroit game, Marleau/Couture was the #1 line, Pavs/Clowe was the #2. JT was #3. JT and Boyle are the critical factors on the PP and since just after the outset of the season, it is a bottomfeeder PP. That doesn't speak well to either of them as PP success is notoriously dependent on the play of the QBs no matter which team.

If they turn it around, they are critical, but even in the recent resurgence, their A game has been blatantly absent. I would put the recent resurgence on Pavs, Wingels and Couture and speaks well as to how the Sharks would compete with the complete absence of JT and Boyle.
or he could be playing the grinch with how much he takes the puck away also.

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03-30-2013, 06:17 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
They're a mess because they traded JVR for Luke "Pylon" Schenn, let Matt Carle go, and let Jagr go. The Richards and Carter trades worked out splendidly for them.
I'm not sure I would use that word to describe it. Jury is still out. And as of now they are a bottom feeder team whose two players they traded away are thriving elsewhere.

Plus they probably wouldn't have moved JVR had they not picked up the guys they did from the Richards/Carter deal. Luke Schenn was supposed to replace Carle. So its all a domino effect.

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03-30-2013, 06:19 PM
  #408
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or he could be playing the grinch with how much he takes the puck away also.
His takeaways have taken a hit in his downturn. I admit that he may be injured, but he really is not moving his feet like he does when he plays well and it affects his game on both sides of the puck.

I am getting tired of the age well argument which you have thankfully avoided. The comment was more for Mafoofoo and PWG.

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03-30-2013, 06:22 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
Really? I don't follow other teams' prospects much. That really bums me out about Leblanc and Koko then. I thought they were both blue chippers.
Nah, we're just being homers. Both are better prospects than Freddie, I just like Freddie too damn much to trade him for futures.

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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
I'm not sure I would use that word to describe it. Jury is still out. And as of now they are a bottom feeder team whose two players they traded away are thriving elsewhere.

Plus they probably wouldn't have moved JVR had they not picked up the guys they did from the Richards/Carter deal. Luke Schenn was supposed to replace Carle. So its all a domino effect.
Couturier is an elite defensive forward. Voracek is over a PPG. Those two are the Flyers' 2nd and 3rd best forwards. They killed it in the Carter trade.

Simmonds has outscored Richards since the trade, and then Brayden Schenn is looking like an absolute beast

Then you consider that you got four top-6 forwards for the same price as Carter and Richards and you make that trade every time. I'd do Thornton and Marleau for those four kids in a heartbeat.

The Luke Schenn trade and letting Carle go were the mistakes, not the Carter and Richards moves. Carter and Richards had lockerroom issues, so that's an even bigger win.

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03-30-2013, 06:24 PM
  #410
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Thornton is still 28-25 in GvA/TkA. Vlasic leads the dmen with 26.

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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Carter and Richards had lockerroom issues, so that's an even bigger win.
You don't know that.

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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I would put the recent resurgence on Pavs, Wingels and Couture and speaks well as to how the Sharks would compete with the complete absence of JT and Boyle.
Small sample size. Where were they during the losing streak (Couture excluded)?

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03-30-2013, 06:27 PM
  #411
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You don't know that.
Look, I understand that as a Flyers fan you were rather attached to those two, watching them grow up with the team you love and then leave, and that you're frustrated with the Flyers current woes, but this state of denial is a little much, even for you.

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03-30-2013, 06:28 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Nah, we're just being homers. Both are better prospects than Freddie, I just like Freddie too damn much to trade him for futures.



Couturier is an elite defensive forward. Voracek is over a PPG. Those two are the Flyers' 2nd and 3rd best forwards. They killed it in the Carter trade.

Simmonds has outscored Richards since the trade, and then Brayden Schenn is looking like an absolute beast

Then you consider that you got four top-6 forwards for the same price as Carter and Richards and you make that trade every time. I'd do Thornton and Marleau for those four kids in a heartbeat.

The Luke Schenn trade and letting Carle go were the mistakes, not the Carter and Richards moves. Carter and Richards had lockerroom issues, so that's an even bigger win.
I'm not arguing the VALUE they got for their trade. I'm talking about the position they are in now as opposed to where they were when they traded their star players. That's what we are talking about in this thread, trading the Sharks star players.

My whole point is basically the "be careful what you wish for" scenario.

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03-30-2013, 06:29 PM
  #413
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fearthefin 3:16pm via Web Sharks director of pro scouting John Ferguson Jr. has reportedly been at the Bruins and Habs games. Busy day.

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03-30-2013, 06:30 PM
  #414
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Seriously, do you have any actual proof rather than random rumors of Carter banging everyone's wives and Richards having a run-in with Pronger? LA doesn't seem to have any problems in the locker room and they're both playing there.

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03-30-2013, 06:30 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
I'm not arguing the VALUE they got for their trade. I'm talking about the position they are in now as opposed to where they were when they traded their star players. That's what we are talking about in this thread, trading the Sharks star players.

My whole point is basically the "be careful what you wish for" scenario.
Agree to disagree.

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fearthefin 3:16pm via Web Sharks director of pro scouting John Ferguson Jr. has reportedly been at the Bruins and Habs games. Busy day.
Bruins played Flyers, Habs playing Rangers.

My wishlist starts with Brendan Gallagher. Get it done DW.

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03-30-2013, 06:37 PM
  #416
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The Carter/Richards drama is just as big of BS as the Semin stuff. It was a good couple trades for Philly but not because of any hidden value it added to team locker room chemistry.

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03-30-2013, 06:38 PM
  #417
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The Carter/Richards drama is just as big of BS as the Semin stuff. It was a good couple trades for Philly but not because of any hidden value it added to team locker room chemistry.
The Semin stuff is just xenophobic ********. But where Richards and Carter are involved... Where there's smoke, there's fire. And I've heard some really bad stuff.

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03-30-2013, 06:39 PM
  #418
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They're a mess because they traded JVR for Luke "Pylon" Schenn, let Matt Carle go, and let Jagr go. The Richards and Carter trades worked out splendidly for them.
That and Pronger's early retirement didn't help, nor did signing Bryzgalov and having Coburn and Meszaros injured. Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier are definitely better than Richards and Carter. In fact, if you take those four out for Rich and Carter, they're looking even worse.

If we could get those kinds of returns for Joe Thornton and Dan Boyle next draft/off season, I'd probably take them.

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03-30-2013, 06:40 PM
  #419
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That and Pronger's early retirement didn't help, nor did signing Bryzgalov and having Coburn and Meszaros injured. Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier are definitely better than Richards and Carter. In fact, if you take those four out for Rich and Carter, they're looking even worse.

If we could get those kinds of returns for Joe Thornton and Dan Boyle next draft/off season, I'd probably take them.
People need to be realistic about returns for Dan Boyle. Yeah, he's awesome and he's great and everything, but the reality is that Boyle is 37 years old this summer with a big cap hit. Not a whole lot of teams are going to be interested.

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03-30-2013, 06:59 PM
  #420
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If or when this team moves JT and Boyle, Marleau better be gone as well. Joe makes others around him much better, and he'd be the only older guy I'd consider keeping around. If he goes, we might as well clean house at that point IMO.
Joe may make others around him better to some degree but he also is a selfish player when he shrugs his shooting responsibilities. For every assist he gets, there are probably three shots he should have taken and didn't because he's the passer.

The way I see it, Marleau and Havlat both play a game that is more conducive towards how the league is right now even at an advanced age. Their game is also not like Thornton where everyone is looking for him and having the offense run through him in a predictable manner. You don't have to tailor an offense specifically around either of those two like you do Thornton.

Besides, the chances of Thornton waiving his NMC is much better than Marleau. Thornton, if I remember right, has said if he was asked, he'd waive it whereas Marleau has always dodged the issue. Chances are the only way to get rid of Marleau is to let him run out his contract and not offer him a new one. There's no value in letting him go for nothing and if the same held true for Thornton, I'd probably keep him too even with all my issues with him.

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03-30-2013, 07:02 PM
  #421
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KKurzCSN 5:01pm via Twitter for iPhone I can confirm #SJSharks pro scouting director John Ferguson Jr was at Boston game in Phi today. @RenLavoieRDS reports he's in Montreal now.

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03-30-2013, 07:33 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
The Semin stuff is just xenophobic ********. But where Richards and Carter are involved... Where there's smoke, there's fire. And I've heard some really bad stuff.
I didn't really follow either of the "rumors" too closely, but how is Semin's just BS while Carter/Richards' is true? From what I read, all we have is that players from both teams complained about the said players. If you don't believe one, you shouldn't believe the other, and vice versa.

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If we could get those kinds of returns for Joe Thornton and Dan Boyle next draft/off season, I'd probably take them.
I agree, but getting a return like that is close to impossible in my opinion. Carter and Richards didn't have any clauses. And while their contracts are long, some GMs are more willing to give up good assets (like Voracek and Schenn) for them, as opposed to giving up good assets for a player that could leave in the next off-season. Plus they are both younger than the two Sharks, and Philly got really lucky that Couturier dropped so low.

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03-30-2013, 07:37 PM
  #423
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I didn't really follow either of the "rumors" too closely, but how is Semin's just BS while Carter/Richards' is true? From what I read, all we have is that players from both teams complained about the said players. If you don't believe one, you shouldn't believe the other, and vice versa.
You can't have a blanket rule for believing rumors, in my opinion. Some rumors I believe, others I don't.

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03-30-2013, 07:39 PM
  #424
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You can't have a blanket rule for believing rumors, in my opinion. Some rumors I believe, others I don't.
But why is that in this specific example? Because you like Semin but you don't really care for Richards/Carter?

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03-30-2013, 07:42 PM
  #425
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But why is that in this specific example? Because you like Semin but you don't really care for Richards/Carter?
The specificity with regards to things I've heard in the Richards/Carter case from different people, as opposed to the general "Sasha doesn't care, Sasha's lazy" stuff.

Anyway, doesn't really matter, we can agree to disagree. The thing to get out of this was that the Flyers were not screwed by making those two moves.

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