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Old
03-30-2013, 03:40 PM
  #176
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by VL55 View Post
I agree that Pollock had the right idea and I hope Bergevin follows his lead.

But I would tone done the expectections. Bergevin said he believed it was very hard to immediately improved your team through trade. Nowadays, in the long run, trades end up pretty even (you win some, you lose some) and only drafting with proper development generate sustainable value for your team.

See, There is more parity amongst GM too.

I know most of us think Snow or Feaster are complete idiot, for example, but even they would never have accepted the deal that brought Lafleur to Montreal.

Little history lesson:

The Golden Seals were a bottom feeder team who had just finished the 69-70 season with 58 points in 78 games (tied for bottom 2). The Habs at the time were between dynasties and had finished with 92 points in 78 games, somehwat low for the era but still tied for 4th.

The deal went: Seals's 1st pick in the 71 draft + François Lacombe

for

Canadiens 1st pick + Ernie Hicke

Ernie Hicke was an okay prospect, I guess, but he had yet to play a single game in the NHL when the deal went down. In his last year of Junior as a 20 year old, he put up 109 points in 55 games. But in 69-70 he was a 22-23 year old playing for Salt Lake Eagle and busy not destroying the league.

When the deal went down, Lafleur had already put up 170 points in 56 games in the prevois year. Dionne did 132 points in 54. That's ONE YEAR BEFORE THEY WERE DRAFT ELIGIBLE! That's two years younger than Hicke when he put up his best junior stats.

So... It did not even take a scouting department to know this could turn very ugly. You just had to look up their stats.

There were some TRULY clueless GM back then. Do any of you believe that early next year we can get the first pick of the flames in 2014 + a fringe NLHer against our first and Patrick Holland? Because that's pretty much what happened in that deal!
I really think a good GM could've gotten Calagary's first this year from Feaster with Cammaleri. They liked Cammy and hated Bourque. There are always pigeons out there, guys who are desperate for 8th who make stupid moves just to get a chance to make the postseason. Those are the teams you target. And a good strategy with those clubs is to trade for future 1sts so they don't pay it right away but it happens in a year or two.

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Old
03-30-2013, 03:42 PM
  #177
BaseballCoach
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You know why you waited 20 years? Because we made short term moves at the expense of long term success. I'd prefer we not do this again now. And Ryan Clowe isn't going to take us anywhere dude, we're better off with the roster we have now.

The team is just starting the gel now. Leave it be this year and see how they do. It's a super deep draft, let's take advanatage of it and see what we can get. We can always trade picks and prospects next year. There's no hurry to do it now.
We can afford to move some roster players or mid-level prospects. We can also afford to deal one pick, seeing as we just got one in the Ryder deal.

Also, don't forget, we are at 46 contracts, plus 1 for next year, plus two in Europe. If we are going to bring in 9 new picks, we will NEED to let a couple of Hamilton or Montreal players go.

We can be creative. For example, what of trading Travis Moen, who still has some value in this league and over 3 years remaining on his somewhat affordable contract, for two assets: one depth rental, like a 6th D type going UFA, PLUS a 3rd or 4th round pick.

We get some help in a position we need immediate help at more than forward, in case we make a run this year, we clear a 3 year contract off the cap, and we get a mid-round pick.

There are a ton more smallish but significant moves we can make if creative and willing to give up something to get something. What I am totally opposed to is mortgaging our future (like St. Louis just did to rent Jordan Leopold???), dealing our first-round pick or any one-time first-rounder or great seconds or any young full-time roster player. That means no trading any of:
Price, Eller, Pacioretty, Subban, Kristo, Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, nor
Gallagher, Diaz or Emelin.


Last edited by BaseballCoach: 03-30-2013 at 03:52 PM.
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Old
03-30-2013, 04:03 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I really think a good GM could've gotten Calagary's first this year from Feaster with Cammaleri. They liked Cammy and hated Bourque. There are always pigeons out there, guys who are desperate for 8th who make stupid moves just to get a chance to make the postseason. Those are the teams you target. And a good strategy with those clubs is to trade for future 1sts so they don't pay it right away but it happens in a year or two.
A real good GM could have gotten us Crosby, Malkin and a 1st for Cole. Right?... Right??!

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Old
03-30-2013, 04:48 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
We can afford to move some roster players or mid-level prospects. We can also afford to deal one pick, seeing as we just got one in the Ryder deal.

Also, don't forget, we are at 46 contracts, plus 1 for next year, plus two in Europe. If we are going to bring in 9 new picks, we will NEED to let a couple of Hamilton or Montreal players go.

We can be creative. For example, what of trading Travis Moen, who still has some value in this league and over 3 years remaining on his somewhat affordable contract, for two assets: one depth rental, like a 6th D type going UFA, PLUS a 3rd or 4th round pick.

We get some help in a position we need immediate help at more than forward, in case we make a run this year, we clear a 3 year contract off the cap, and we get a mid-round pick.

There are a ton more smallish but significant moves we can make if creative and willing to give up something to get something. What I am totally opposed to is mortgaging our future (like St. Louis just did to rent Jordan Leopold???), dealing our first-round pick or any one-time first-rounder or great seconds or any young full-time roster player. That means no trading any of:
Price, Eller, Pacioretty, Subban, Kristo, Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, nor
Gallagher, Diaz or Emelin.
I'd rather we trade for prospects than rentals.

Just leave it be and let the club show what it can do. This is supposed to be an awesome draft. Let Timmins make his pick. This whole philosophy of 'we have to do it now' is flawed. The best years of this team are ahead of us. We aren't the Vancouver Canucks who are nearing the end of their window...
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
A real good magician could have gotten us Crosby, Malkin and a 1st for Cole. Right?... Right??!
Fixed.

Somehow I think there's a slight difference between what I said and what you wrote here...

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Old
03-30-2013, 09:01 PM
  #180
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So to you a D to be dominant needs to do more than almost 1 point per game? Jee then there hasn't been a dominant since Raymond Bourque.
Has nothing to do with points, PK still makes a lot of foolish mistakes. Most of them are caused by youthful exuberance, once he learns less is more he will become dominant. Two areas he is still immature in are seeing his teammates when he rushes the puck and when to make the big hit. When he cost us the game against the Sabres is a good example of a bad attempt of a hit.

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03-30-2013, 09:14 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by CHwest View Post
Has nothing to do with points, PK still makes a lot of foolish mistakes. Most of them are caused by youthful exuberance, once he learns less is more he will become dominant. Two areas he is still immature in are seeing his teammates when he rushes the puck and when to make the big hit. When he cost us the game against the Sabres is a good example of a bad attempt of a hit.
You mean on a phantom call that wasn't even a high stick? It never ends with PK I guess.

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03-30-2013, 09:46 PM
  #182
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Clowe has 0 goals in 28 games. Regardless of what he brings to the physicality of a team, that's a very worrisome and massive dropoff in production.

Perry is re-signed by Anaheim, Iggy went to Pittsburgh... honestly there's nothing terribly attractive out there right now unless there's something brewing that nobody in the hockey media world knows about (think of the Stewart-Shattenkirk/Eric Johnson trade).

I certainly wouldn't part with a 1st Rd pick, or a Tinordi-caliber prospect for anybody conceivably available now.


Thankfully, the Pens went all-in in a big way. We can't top that, or even match that, but then Boston missed out as well. Should the Pens flame out in the 1st or 2nd Round (which is possible given the potential injury and goalie issues that team could find itself in), we're as well-situated as any other team in the East to go on a good run, imo.


At this point, stand pat is probably the way to go. I'd be fine if we gave up marginal futures for Jagr or Clowe, but I wouldn't pay a major price for either.

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Old
03-30-2013, 10:04 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Noob616 View Post
You mean on a phantom call that wasn't even a high stick? It never ends with PK I guess.
Penalty or not it was a foolish play at that point of the game, PK's is not God he still has a lot to learn.

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Old
03-30-2013, 10:06 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by habsfan88 View Post
I normally don't want to trade any future, but I feel like we were so gifted with Gally and Chuck that we can afford to take that chance this time around. I think our time is veryyy soon boys and girls
I don't want a two month rental though. And, I don't want anyone over 30.

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Old
03-30-2013, 10:09 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by CHwest View Post
Penalty or not it was a foolish play at that point of the game, PK's is not God he still has a lot to learn.
Of course but he is not only our best D man on the ice he's our best player too

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Old
03-30-2013, 10:39 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You know why you waited 20 years? Because we made short term moves at the expense of long term success. I'd prefer we not do this again now. And Ryan Clowe isn't going to take us anywhere dude, we're better off with the roster we have now.

The team is just starting the gel now. Leave it be this year and see how they do. It's a super deep draft, let's take advanatage of it and see what we can get. We can always trade picks and prospects next year. There's no hurry to do it now.
What's another 20 years, right?

A physical DMan and an upgrade in size for one forward. That is all this team needs.

For those looking to next year as possibly "the year". We saw an example of that tonight. The New York Rangers. Remember the season that they had last year? Awesome team. And all they did on trade deadline day was get John Scott.

Here we are, one year later. You think the Rangers are pondering their fantastic future and how they will win a Cup? Hell no.

Fortunes can change so quickly in professional sports. From bad to good as easily as from good to bad.

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Old
03-30-2013, 10:55 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
What's another 20 years, right?

A physical DMan and an upgrade in size for one forward. That is all this team needs.

For those looking to next year as possibly "the year". We saw an example of that tonight. The New York Rangers. Remember the season that they had last year? Awesome team. And all they did on trade deadline day was get John Scott.

Here we are, one year later. You think the Rangers are pondering their fantastic future and how they will win a Cup? Hell no.

Fortunes can change so quickly in professional sports. From bad to good as easily as from good to bad.
The Rangers are a team that continually makes huge moves and goes up and down... you want to emulate them?

Slow and steady wins the race. We're a young team, no reason for us to mess things up now. Deep draft, see what we get... we can always make big moves next year. Besides, who's out there right now?

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03-30-2013, 11:01 PM
  #188
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The Rangers are a team that continually makes huge moves and goes up and down... you want to emulate them?

Slow and steady wins the race. We're a young team, no reason for us to mess things up now. Deep draft, see what we get... we can always make big moves next year. Besides, who's out there right now?
John Scott at the deadline was not a huge move. Sorry. He is huge but that was not a move to improve the team.

Regardless, they did not trade away prospects or picks to improve their chances in the playoffs.

How are those picks and prospects helping now? And the end result will be getting a new coach for their efforts. A Cup winning coach at that.

Who? Clowe and Smid.

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03-30-2013, 11:11 PM
  #189
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Too many people are overlooking Clowe because "he has no goals" this season.

Right now, Clowe is 5th on the Sharks team with 62 shots. He has two shots so far this evening. For comparison sake, Armstrong has 30 and White has 13. Our 5th ranked shot taker is Gallagher with 81.

He is not a no-talent plug. He is just having terrible luck this season.

He is averaging 16 minutes + of TOI and has over 65 minutes of PP time. Clowe is the forward that will create space on our PP.

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Old
03-30-2013, 11:15 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The Rangers are a team that continually makes huge moves and goes up and down... you want to emulate them?

Slow and steady wins the race. We're a young team, no reason for us to mess things up now. Deep draft, see what we get... we can always make big moves next year. Besides, who's out there right now?
The Rangers are way better than their record.... team is trying to get Torts canned.... lose another couple like tonight and Ruff will be their coach... that'll be the best trade deadline deal. Beware the good team in the playoffs that had an average year.... I wouldn't want to play them if Ruff gets ahold of them.

As for us. I like the team, but I don't think we've got the horses to go far into the playoffs. Nothing is really on the market to make us that much better.... to survive in the playoffs we need another big body up front and another on D..... those don't grow on trees and the best ones have been gobbled up by Pitt.

JBow is attractive... but the guy has never, ever been a + player.... not even in JR..... that has to mean something more than bad luck. No thx, not for more than a 3rd, and after Iginlia, Feaster ain't taking that.

Who else... is out there... Whitney... not a difference maker for us.

Clowe is also an interesting proposition, and given how badly he's sucked this year we might be able to get him for **** all.... but I doubt it.

Bottom line... keep the steady course... we're more than a couple spare parts from a cup run. To get there we'll need tons of luck...not

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Old
03-30-2013, 11:24 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Regardless, they did not trade away prospects or picks to improve their chances in the playoffs.

How are those picks and prospects helping now? And the end result will be getting a new coach for their efforts. A Cup winning coach at that.
I think what he was getting at is how the Rangers are always signing the big free agent, in the running for the big trade, or trading away all their picks, prospects, and depth for guys like Nash. Keep in mind Rangers fans thought they were Rick Nash away from a cup.


That being said...
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Who? Clowe and Smid.
I'd be on board for this. Depth is a good thing in a playoff run, and I think we're playing a bit of a dangerous game right now with that. Diaz is a big question mark, and with him back we have an awesome D corps, but we can't count on him getting healthy and nobody getting hurt before/during the playoffs. I'd like to add a guy like Smid to the roster, that way even with an injury we'd still have 6 legit NHLers on D. I'm a little wary of bringing Beaulieu or Tinordi up in the playoffs, I'd rather us have the depth than risk it with rookies.

As for Clowe, I'm not a huge fan but I'd be willing to part with futures for him. I wouldn't want to get rid of anyone off the roster outside of a 4th liner for him, nor anything higher than a 3rd rounder. We do already have Bourque, but like Diaz we can't count on him being healthy. I just want to be careful with throwing those picks away, Gainey loved to spend a 2nd rounder at every deadline and it really makes it hard to draft well. It works with both sides of this argument too, the Penguins were able to throw picks and prospects around like nobody's business precisely because they've been saving picks and drafting well. They had so many prospects in their system that they could make the big move, and I can see us being there with this core for a while. I just don't think Clowe is enough to throw a lot of picks away.

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03-30-2013, 11:47 PM
  #192
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live in the now worry about the future later.

not saying to trade the farm but we could use a vet forward, i don't want White playing for us int he playoffs, and maybe up grade Armstrong with a better PK more physical player

Moen is a warrior, his play has been better in the last couple of games

and if Diaz is not good to go then we need to fill that spot not sure i want Weber or one of the kids in there for such an important run

players i would like for MB to think about these are rentals


RW/LW E.Fehr 6'4 212 29-6-6-12 31hits
W/C Matt Hendricks 6'0 212 34-4-3-7 -3 61hits
D J.Corvo shoots r 26-4-9-13 +7 15 hits
D R.Whitney 6'3 206 25-3-7-10 -7 12 hits
these guys are just rentals Fehr or Hendricks would be better than White and Armstrong

then if we want to go for a guy with some contract after this year
LW C.Glengross 6'1 197 31-14-8-22 -8 38hits 2.5M for the next 2y
RW/C D.Moss 6'4 207 32-4-13-17 +4 49hits 2.1M 1 more year
D R.Klesa 6'3 223 25-1-6-7 -2 25hits 2.9M 1 more year
LW C.Mcleod 6'2 210 34-3-3-6 +4 57hits 77PIM 1.15 for the next 2y
C/LW N.Thompson 6'0 210 34-7-4-11 68hits 6PIM 1.6M 4 more years i can see him as 4line center instead of White

now i realize there is not much big names, i don't think we need the big name, we need to upgrade Armstrong and White and if Diaz insurance

example if healthy

Ryder-Pleks-Gionta
Patch-DD-Bourque
Eller-Gally-Gallagher
Fehr-Halpern/Hendricks-Prust

then on the bench Moen, Halpern/Hendricks and if we get an inj atleast we don't need to use White or Armstrong

Markov-Emelin
Gorges-Subban
Bouillion-Diaz (Corvo or Whitney or any other D with exp)

one thing doing this list i found out there is not much out there

wouldn't mind adding Glencross or Moss if we can handle their cap hit next year

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03-31-2013, 07:21 AM
  #193
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I think we can get Clowe without giving up much that would bother us. Giving a 2nd pick wouldn't hurt.

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03-31-2013, 07:55 AM
  #194
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I think we can get Clowe without giving up much that would bother us. Giving a 2nd pick wouldn't hurt.
If SJ is looking for a Clowe-light that would be under contract for a couple more years, maybe Ryan White for Clowe straight up. Maybe add in a fourth rounder, and get a sixth rounder back.

However, I'm thinking that some desperate GM might just offer a first-rounder and that is too much for a rental of any kind, even Iginla, for a team in the Habs' position.

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03-31-2013, 08:13 AM
  #195
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If SJ is looking for a Clowe-light that would be under contract for a couple more years, maybe Ryan White for Clowe straight up.
Ryan White is 'Clowe-light' in the same way that Desharnais is Crosby-light....

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03-31-2013, 10:46 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
John Scott at the deadline was not a huge move. Sorry. He is huge but that was not a move to improve the team.

Regardless, they did not trade away prospects or picks to improve their chances in the playoffs.

How are those picks and prospects helping now? And the end result will be getting a new coach for their efforts. A Cup winning coach at that.

Who? Clowe and Smid.
The Rangers constantly replace their core with high end FAs and players. Rick Nash is the latest... I think you can do this sometimes but I'm not a fan of the huge changes.

Regardless, I think we should just stick with what we've got.
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Originally Posted by habfaninvictoria View Post
The Rangers are way better than their record.... team is trying to get Torts canned.... lose another couple like tonight and Ruff will be their coach... that'll be the best trade deadline deal. Beware the good team in the playoffs that had an average year.... I wouldn't want to play them if Ruff gets ahold of them.
They're underachieving this year but overachieved last year... But they might not even make the playoffs this year.
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Originally Posted by habfaninvictoria View Post
As for us. I like the team, but I don't think we've got the horses to go far into the playoffs. Nothing is really on the market to make us that much better.... to survive in the playoffs we need another big body up front and another on D..... those don't grow on trees and the best ones have been gobbled up by Pitt.

JBow is attractive... but the guy has never, ever been a + player.... not even in JR..... that has to mean something more than bad luck. No thx, not for more than a 3rd, and after Iginlia, Feaster ain't taking that.

Who else... is out there... Whitney... not a difference maker for us.

Clowe is also an interesting proposition, and given how badly he's sucked this year we might be able to get him for **** all.... but I doubt it.

Bottom line... keep the steady course... we're more than a couple spare parts from a cup run. To get there we'll need tons of luck...not
Yup, I agree. Just leave it be and see how we do.

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03-31-2013, 11:47 AM
  #197
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Diaz is not even skating. At this point you have to approach it as if his season is done.

6th D = Weber, Kaberle, Tinordi, Beaulieu, or Pateryn

The 2nd PP unit consists of Bouillon/Gorges (maybe Emelin), but probably going to be Subban/Bouillon down the stretch.

Ryan Whitney might be a good fit but not sure what Edmonton is asking in return though. If Douglas Murray could return two 2nd rounders, the asking price for ANY defenseman may be overkill, but that's the market.

That said, if any of our top 5 D gets injured, which is highly possible, that leaves a gaping hole. Unless MB is willing to allow Kaberle (the only vet) to play in the PO, with an injury, we're currently looking at Weber + 1 of the AHL callups on the starting roster. Suddenly our D depth is not looking good at all.

Beaulieu and Tinordi are untouchable, the former becoming Markov's replacement and the latter becoming a huge upgrade on Bouillon once Bouillon retires/goes to another team. Dietz is untouchable after the season he just had. Any other D prospect, MB needs to be willing to part with since roster spots will be limited ESPECIALLY with a deep draft this year. Problem is their value will be low.

I would consider Dan Boyle or Bouwmeester if the price is right. A 1rst rounder, a 3rd rounder and Dalton Thrower (or maybe Collberg and we ask for a 5th in return). Doubt this will ever get done, but at a 6.6 - 6.8M cap hit, I don't think Boyle or Bouwmeester could return too much more than that. This is not a Now or Never mentality as we could always ship them off next year and get two decent draft picks back.

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03-31-2013, 08:03 PM
  #198
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This is precisely why I said earlier that you go for it when you have a shot. Who cares about Pittsburgh because anything can happen (ie: Crosby gone for a month). Some smaller moves can be made with picks or mid level prospects. You keep beaulieu and Tinordi. Eveyrone else is available.

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03-31-2013, 08:05 PM
  #199
icerocket
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DO NOT TRADE THE FUTURE.

The Habs are not in that position yet.

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03-31-2013, 08:07 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
DO NOT TRADE THE FUTURE.

The Habs are not in that position yet.
You trade the guys that you think you can live without. There are some prospects that are highly touted by Habs fans that look like they won't be anything more than fringe NHLers.

4th in the league and you don't want to take a run at the cup? What?

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