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03-30-2013, 09:17 PM
  #26
DeuceNine
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Goaltending morons

Everyone claiming Halak isn't good enough are playing right into the stereotype of the average coach or beer league player not knowing diddly about the position. Thanks for reinforcing the point.

If anyone did any research (but why bother when emotion and perception are good enough) they'd see where shots are coming from from the opposition. Last game, LA took something like 25 shots from within 35 feet. Of course I expect absolutely no one here to know anything about physics, but that means even at at a pedestrian 80MPH that shot takes less than a quarter-second to reach the goaltender. You cannot allow chances like that consistently and expect amazing results.

Allen has more team support. He's a rookie, the team knows that and plays like there's no goalie back there. Sure, he's played capably and you could certainly make the case that he's our goalie of the future. But, I doubt that anyone in Blues management thinks that any more than Ottawa thinks Bishop is their future stud.

Point is, it's the team first, then the goaltender. Halak has his chance. Thing is, we've gone too long blaming the goalie and forgetting everyone else. When the team bought in last year, you saw results in net.

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03-30-2013, 09:28 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by DeuceNine View Post
Everyone claiming Halak isn't good enough are playing right into the stereotype of the average coach or beer league player not knowing diddly about the position. Thanks for reinforcing the point.

If anyone did any research (but why bother when emotion and perception are good enough) they'd see where shots are coming from from the opposition. Last game, LA took something like 25 shots from within 35 feet. Of course I expect absolutely no one here to know anything about physics, but that means even at at a pedestrian 80MPH that shot takes less than a quarter-second to reach the goaltender. You cannot allow chances like that consistently and expect amazing results.

Allen has more team support. He's a rookie, the team knows that and plays like there's no goalie back there. Sure, he's played capably and you could certainly make the case that he's our goalie of the future. But, I doubt that anyone in Blues management thinks that any more than Ottawa thinks Bishop is their future stud.

Point is, it's the team first, then the goaltender. Halak has his chance. Thing is, we've gone too long blaming the goalie and forgetting everyone else. When the team bought in last year, you saw results in net.
Ah yes, the "you have to play the position to understand" argument. Always a classic.

Quit with the "Allen has more team support" argument. You people act like we leave Halak out to dry every single game and play amazing for Allen with no breakaways given up or scoring chances allowed or anything. That is simply false. The team has been consistently playing inconsistent in front of every netminder this season. I'm sick of hearing these excuses to make it seem like they prefer one or the other. We heard the exact same thing last year about how the team felt more comfortable with Elliott in net. Well then what happened to him this season? The point is, the team has been shaky all year for the most part, and pretty much all the goalies have as well (Allen to a lesser extent, and when he was shaky, he's a rookie so nothing less should be expected).

Halak is an average goalie at best. He lets the puck hit him, he has no elite goaltending skills (playing the puck, glove, rebound control, lateral movement, etc). Go ahead and use your argument about the shots though, which makes no sense because if anything Halak does better when he faces more shots. He's had plenty of games where he faced less than 20 shots and let in at least 3 goals. Yeah the team doesn't do well against the Kings but Halak still needs to be better. Two out of the 3 goals he let in were not "80 mph shots from 25 feet out". They were extremely weak tap-ins in the crease that he should have stopped. Put down the box score and just watch. Your argument is poor.

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03-30-2013, 09:29 PM
  #28
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Please. The laws of physics mean Halak is a good goaltender? Now I've heard everything. I'm not sure when it became controversial that harder shots to stop are harder shots to stop. It's a tautology. But if you look around the NHL in the aggregate over all games you find that about 2/3 of the goals are scored from the slot below the hashmarks. So any NHL goaltender to be good relative to other NHL goaltenders is going to have to be good stopping those kind of shots.

I do agree that the team plays more protectively in front of Allen, and in some ways that's what was needed instead of all this rushing and pinching from #27.

But there are several dimensions to this discussion that too often get conflated. Two different dimensions are: Is Halak good enough to be the Blues #1 if they're going to contend for a Cup and is Halak a better option than Allen? A third, related but different dimension is, what's the ripple effect on the team when X/Y/Z goalie is in net? Lots of times in discussion here I see a poster discussing one of these dimensions and someone else leap to a conclusion about another dimension.

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03-30-2013, 09:36 PM
  #29
CarvinSigX
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When was the last time a goalie under 6' was a great/elite goaltender?

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03-30-2013, 09:37 PM
  #30
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Lost his job 2/3 years he's been with us. He lost his job to Brian Elliott, who everyone claimed to be a terrible pick up, and Jake Allen, who literally has only played NHL games this year. The only reason he didn't lose it his first year and play less games was because our backup was Ty Conklin.

He's not bad but he's not a game stealer. He lets in too many weak goals, some games he looks amazing but every player has those games. His rebound control is one of the worst in the league, he honestly looks like a pinball machine. His glove hand isn't anywhere near the level of Elliott's or Allen's. I wouldn't say his lateral movement is that bad but it certainly isn't anything to WOW about. Not to mention he is a huge flopper.

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03-30-2013, 11:28 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
Lost his job 2/3 years he's been with us. He lost his job to Brian Elliott, who everyone claimed to be a terrible pick up, and Jake Allen, who literally has only played NHL games this year. The only reason he didn't lose it his first year and play less games was because our backup was Ty Conklin.

He's not bad but he's not a game stealer. He lets in too many weak goals, some games he looks amazing but every player has those games. His rebound control is one of the worst in the league, he honestly looks like a pinball machine. His glove hand isn't anywhere near the level of Elliott's or Allen's. I wouldn't say his lateral movement is that bad but it certainly isn't anything to WOW about. Not to mention he is a huge flopper.
Actually, that is exactly what Halak is. A game stealer.

Say what you want about his consistency, or his ability to handle a full seasons work load as a bonafide #1. Mention his weak glove hand, or his poor shoot-out record.

But to say his isn't a game stealer?

There is a reason he is tied with Glenn "Mr. Goalie" Hall for most shutouts in a Blues uniform, a reason he helped carry Montreal deep into the playoffs, and a reason he helped Slovakia to a best ever fourth place finish in the 2010 Olympics including a 36 saves on 37 shots against Russia.

If Halak should be kept going forward, if he is overpaid, if he is whiny, if he is good enough to win a Cup, etc. are all up for debate. But the guy can steal a game fairly often.

Its the games between those games you gotta watch out for.

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03-30-2013, 11:32 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
When was the last time a goalie under 6' was a great/elite goaltender?
Does Tim Thomas count? He didn't do it for a long period of time, but still 2 Vezina's, a Cup and a Conn Smythe has to count for something.

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03-30-2013, 11:46 PM
  #33
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More bashing Halak I see. Has he given up weak goals this year and in the past? Yeah, but what goalie doesn't? You name me one goalie that doesn't give up weak goals and I'll kiss your ass.

Maybe it's time to start bashing the defense? Our defense doesn't get guys out of the crease, they constantly let them get 2nd and 3rd opportunities when they have a chance to put a player on his ass or clear the puck.

A goalie is only as good as the players in front of him. When the team in front of him plays good, the goalie normally plays good. When the team in front of him plays bad, the goalie normally doesn't play very good.

And the comments about needing to see more shots by Halak, as a former goalie, I can tell you that I definitely played better when I had 25-30 shots compared to when I had 15-20. It's easier to stay sharp and in the game when you see more shots compared to being bored out of your ass standing there so long and getting a shot every couple minutes. It's just getting in a rhythm/groove when you start to face more shots. It may seem weird, but I would say most goalies would rather face 25-30 shots than 15-20 shots a game.

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03-30-2013, 11:54 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by diehardbluesfan View Post
More bashing Halak I see. Has he given up weak goals this year and in the past? Yeah, but what goalie doesn't? You name me one goalie that doesn't give up weak goals and I'll kiss your ass.

Maybe it's time to start bashing the defense? Our defense doesn't get guys out of the crease, they constantly let them get 2nd and 3rd opportunities when they have a chance to put a player on his ass or clear the puck.

A goalie is only as good as the players in front of him. When the team in front of him plays good, the goalie normally plays good. When the team in front of him plays bad, the goalie normally doesn't play very good.

And the comments about needing to see more shots by Halak, as a former goalie, I can tell you that I definitely played better when I had 25-30 shots compared to when I had 15-20. It's easier to stay sharp and in the game when you see more shots compared to being bored out of your ass standing there so long and getting a shot every couple minutes. It's just getting in a rhythm/groove when you start to face more shots. It may seem weird, but I would say most goalies would rather face 25-30 shots than 15-20 shots a game.
Sweet, I guess our defense should play worse then and allow more shots...

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03-30-2013, 11:59 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by BlueDream View Post
Sweet, I guess our defense should play worse then and allow more shots...
Can't get much worse than has been this season. Our defense leaves our goalies out to dry so much it's not even funny. I know goalies have to make the tough saves every now and then, but when you expect them to make the tough saves 3-4 times a game, you need to start blaming the defense.

The Blues don't give up a lot of shots per game, but it'd be interesting to see how many quality opportunities they give up per game.

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03-31-2013, 12:00 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by diehardbluesfan View Post
Can't get much worse than has been this season. Our defense leaves our goalies out to dry so much it's not even funny. I know goalies have to make the tough saves every now and then, but when you expect them to make the tough saves 3-4 times a game, you need to start blaming the defense.

The Blues don't give up a lot of shots per game, but it'd be interesting to see how many quality opportunities they give up per game.
I don't disagree, the goaltending and defense have both been a huge issue this season.

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03-31-2013, 12:04 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BlueDream View Post
Yep. Halak lets the puck hit him. He has no elite goaltending skills and many times does not even know where the puck is.


Ok, who suggested going with Allen/Elliott?
This is extremely inaccurate.

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03-31-2013, 12:04 AM
  #38
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Actually, that is exactly what Halak is. A game stealer.

Say what you want about his consistency, or his ability to handle a full seasons work load as a bonafide #1. Mention his weak glove hand, or his poor shoot-out record.

But to say his isn't a game stealer?

There is a reason he is tied with Glenn "Mr. Goalie" Hall for most shutouts in a Blues uniform, a reason he helped carry Montreal deep into the playoffs, and a reason he helped Slovakia to a best ever fourth place finish in the 2010 Olympics including a 36 saves on 37 shots against Russia.

If Halak should be kept going forward, if he is overpaid, if he is whiny, if he is good enough to win a Cup, etc. are all up for debate. But the guy can steal a game fairly often.

Its the games between those games you gotta watch out for.
Name the last game you have thought "Wow we wouldn't have won had not Halak played like he had." Wasn't this season. And he didn't play in the playoffs.

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03-31-2013, 12:09 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by mizzoublues29 View Post
This is extremely inaccurate.
It really isn't. You should actually make an argument though instead of just repeating what another poster says.

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03-31-2013, 12:09 AM
  #40
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I don't disagree, the goaltending and defense have both been a huge issue this season.
Halak hasn't played as good as he should be playing, but the lock out is hard on goalies as they weren't able to play during the lock out. I know it shouldn't be an excuse, but look at how many top goalies are struggling compared to last year and in years past.

It's just funny how for the most part everyone just likes to blame the goalie, but don't hold the defense accountable (besides Petro this year). I know people are down on Petro (me included), but Shattenkirk hasn't been the player people are hyping him up to be either.

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03-31-2013, 12:14 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by diehardbluesfan View Post
Halak hasn't played as good as he should be playing, but the lock out is hard on goalies as they weren't able to play during the lock out. I know it shouldn't be an excuse, but look at how many top goalies are struggling compared to last year and in years past.

It's just funny how for the most part everyone just likes to blame the goalie, but don't hold the defense accountable (besides Petro this year). I know people are down on Petro (me included), but Shattenkirk hasn't been the player people are hyping him up to be either.
What? There are posts blaming the whole team. Almost every poster here is holding the defense accountable. Lol seriously it's not JUST the goaltending, no one here is saying that goaltending is the only problem. We are simply stating that Halak is not a #1 and we can't rely on him to take us to a cup. He is a suitable 1B or backup goaltender and a very good one at that but he is certainly not the answer to the cup.

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03-31-2013, 12:18 AM
  #42
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I'm pretty sure the only guy that hasn't received any flack is Sobotka. Just saying.

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03-31-2013, 12:23 AM
  #43
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What? There are posts blaming the whole team. Almost every poster here is holding the defense accountable. Lol seriously it's not JUST the goaltending, no one here is saying that goaltending is the only problem. We are simply stating that Halak is not a #1 and we can't rely on him to take us to a cup. He is a suitable 1B or backup goaltender and a very good one at that but he is certainly not the answer to the cup.
I don't read every single post on this forum, but from what I read, it's rare where I see people hold the defense accountable besides Petro this year. Shattenkirk has been good for us this year, but he hasn't been as great as people thinks. He makes mistakes quite a bit, especially throwing the puck up the damn middle of the ice, although our defense for some reason likes to do that a lot for some reason.

How do you know he can't take us to a cup? The one and a half games from last playoffs showed you he can't take us to the cup? Or when he took the Habs to the Eastern Conference Finals? I realize that was three years ago, but the point still remains, Halak has the ability to take the Blues to the cup. Will he? We will find out.

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03-31-2013, 12:37 AM
  #44
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It really isn't. You should actually make an argument though instead of just repeating what another poster says.
I would have stated it regardless of what anyone else says.

To suggest that Halak (or any NHL caliber goaltender) has no elite goaltending skills is just asinine and blatant ignorance.

Halak has given the Blues a chance to win nearly every start. The defense (as a whole - forward's d-zone coverage and backchecking...) has been awful this year, just awful.

As for he "lets pucks hit him", well you should familiarize yourself with the modern b-fly goaltending style which utilizes precision positioning/angles and "blocking" as opposed to pure reaction. Is his positioning perfect? No, but it's hardly worse than any other goaltender that he's matched up against every night. He does have a tendency to get beat low-blocker from right handed shots (an against the grain type play) and when shooters change the angle. As do many right-handed blocker tendy's, the level of difficulty on those shots is very, very high.

His glove hand isn't great, but it's not bad either. Its positioning is fine, gap closure looks good. You just won't see him make an inordinate amount of highlight glove saves, and I don't think the majority of glove side goals are actually within glove range because...;

...he will get beat over the shoulders which is more or less the result of a shorter goaltender playing the b-fly. Shots around the ear/shoulders will beat shorter, and taller NHL goalies every. single. night. Blockers and gloves cannot get to that spot when shots come from within the ~25 ft range and closer.

Virtually unbeatable down low, it's been a while since he's given up a bad 5-hole goal (I think). He's not wrong about the play with Redden, I don't know why so many people are so hung up about his comments.

I don't recall him getting beat too often trying the horizontal/vertical post hug...nothing frustrates me more than those goals. Personally I think it's an abomination of modern goaltending, yet it's still taught.

His ability to scramble and recover is among the best in the league, so is his lateral movement.

No, he hasn't been able to steal games this year as compared to his previous performances...but he is hardly this team's issue.

Edit: he is absolutely a #1 NHL goaltender. He may not be a 70 game/year goalie, but he is a very solid #1.

Edit again: His skating and balance is very, very good. While his puck-playing ability isn't great...it's so far down my list of criteria to judge goalies that I consider it irrelevant. Unless you're Marty Brodeur or Turco, it's largely overrated and not at all pertinent.


Last edited by mizzoublues29: 03-31-2013 at 12:45 AM.
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03-31-2013, 12:47 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by mizzoublues29 View Post
I would have stated it regardless of what anyone else says.

To suggest that Halak (or any NHL caliber goaltender) has no elite goaltending skills is just asinine and blatant ignorance.

Halak has given the Blues a chance to win nearly every start. The defense (as a whole - forward's d-zone coverage and backchecking...) has been awful this year, just awful.

As for he "lets pucks hit him", well you should familiarize yourself with the modern b-fly goaltending style which utilizes precision positioning/angles and "blocking" as opposed to pure reaction. Is his positioning perfect? No, but it's hardly worse than any other goaltender that he's matched up against every night. He does have a tendency to get beat low-blocker from right handed shots (an against the grain type play) and when shooters change the angle. As do many right-handed blocker tendy's, the level of difficulty on those shots is very, very high.

His glove hand isn't great, but it's not bad either. Its positioning is fine, gap closure looks good. You just won't see him make an inordinate amount of highlight glove saves, and I don't think the majority of glove side goals are actually within glove range because...;

...he will get beat over the shoulders which is more or less the result of a shorter goaltender playing the b-fly. Shots around the ear/shoulders will beat shorter, and taller NHL goalies every. single. night. Blockers and gloves cannot get to that spot when shots come from within the ~25 ft range and closer.

Virtually unbeatable down low, it's been a while since he's given up a bad 5-hole goal (I think). He's not wrong about the play with Redden, I don't know why so many people are so hung up about his comments.

I don't recall him getting beat too often trying the horizontal/vertical post hug...nothing frustrates me more than those goals. Personally I think it's an abomination of modern goaltending, yet it's still taught.

His ability to scramble and recover is among the best in the league, so is his lateral movement.

No, he hasn't been able to steal games this year as compared to his previous performances...but he is hardly this team's issue.

Edit: he is absolutely a #1 NHL goaltender. He may not be a 70 game/year goalie, but he is a very solid #1.
This post is nearly entirely inaccurate. His ability to scramble and recover is actually one of the worst in the league, it's one of the reasons he let up that goal when Carter pushed the net forward, WHY WAS HE ON HIS STOMACH?!?! His lateral movement is sub-par.

His glove hand is actually pretty bad. Remember last year when he had to switch to a deeper pocket glove because his glove hand wasn't good enough? Yeah, well that hasn't changed.

He's given them a chance to win only to let in a weak one to deflate the team.

Actually I say his style allows him to get beat over the shoulder less because his style is to let pucks hit him and then try to cover them.

Don't recall him getting beat on the post hug? Iginla goal and was why Trevor Lewis got his goal.

I will say he doesn't give up many five hole goals though, certainly not as many as Elliott does.

And again he is NOT a #1. Halak is not a bad goalie, he just isn't great. I've posted it twice now? But a starter doesn't lose his job 2 years in a row to guys who have much less on their resume.

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03-31-2013, 12:57 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by diehardbluesfan View Post
I don't read every single post on this forum, but from what I read, it's rare where I see people hold the defense accountable besides Petro this year. Shattenkirk has been good for us this year, but he hasn't been as great as people thinks. He makes mistakes quite a bit, especially throwing the puck up the damn middle of the ice, although our defense for some reason likes to do that a lot for some reason.

How do you know he can't take us to a cup? The one and a half games from last playoffs showed you he can't take us to the cup? Or when he took the Habs to the Eastern Conference Finals? I realize that was three years ago, but the point still remains, Halak has the ability to take the Blues to the cup. Will he? We will find out.
Just want to point out if you read the trade thread at all, it's mostly hyper-focused on LHD, which means we all understand the defense has a big hole on it.

It's possible for there to be more than one simultaneous problem. Whether he contradicted himself about what he might be doing re: trades, there's no reason to discount Armstrong when talking about leaks springing in several places. One of those places is absolutely the Blues' net. Which implicates Halak since he's the big moneymaker.

Frankly the forwards aren't as good backchecking this year as last, and that's a big problem. It's just that there's not an easy a fix/trade for that aspect of the leaky ship, so it's talked about less.

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03-31-2013, 12:58 AM
  #47
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That Carter goal shouldn't have counted the other night. Carter lifts the net causing Halak's skate to come loose from the post which Richards then scores. I wonder how many times Jackman is going to let Richards just sit there and hack away at the puck.

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03-31-2013, 12:59 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzoublues29 View Post
I would have stated it regardless of what anyone else says.

To suggest that Halak (or any NHL caliber goaltender) has no elite goaltending skills is just asinine and blatant ignorance.

Halak has given the Blues a chance to win nearly every start. The defense (as a whole - forward's d-zone coverage and backchecking...) has been awful this year, just awful.

As for he "lets pucks hit him", well you should familiarize yourself with the modern b-fly goaltending style which utilizes precision positioning/angles and "blocking" as opposed to pure reaction. Is his positioning perfect? No, but it's hardly worse than any other goaltender that he's matched up against every night. He does have a tendency to get beat low-blocker from right handed shots (an against the grain type play) and when shooters change the angle. As do many right-handed blocker tendy's, the level of difficulty on those shots is very, very high.

His glove hand isn't great, but it's not bad either. Its positioning is fine, gap closure looks good. You just won't see him make an inordinate amount of highlight glove saves, and I don't think the majority of glove side goals are actually within glove range because...;

...he will get beat over the shoulders which is more or less the result of a shorter goaltender playing the b-fly. Shots around the ear/shoulders will beat shorter, and taller NHL goalies every. single. night. Blockers and gloves cannot get to that spot when shots come from within the ~25 ft range and closer.

Virtually unbeatable down low, it's been a while since he's given up a bad 5-hole goal (I think). He's not wrong about the play with Redden, I don't know why so many people are so hung up about his comments.

I don't recall him getting beat too often trying the horizontal/vertical post hug...nothing frustrates me more than those goals. Personally I think it's an abomination of modern goaltending, yet it's still taught.

His ability to scramble and recover is among the best in the league, so is his lateral movement.

No, he hasn't been able to steal games this year as compared to his previous performances...but he is hardly this team's issue.

Edit: he is absolutely a #1 NHL goaltender. He may not be a 70 game/year goalie, but he is a very solid #1.

Edit again: His skating and balance is very, very good. While his puck-playing ability isn't great...it's so far down my list of criteria to judge goalies that I consider it irrelevant. Unless you're Marty Brodeur or Turco, it's largely overrated and not at all pertinent.
That was where I stopped reading. Cmon.

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03-31-2013, 01:04 AM
  #49
Bluesman91
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Originally Posted by diehardbluesfan View Post
That Carter goal shouldn't have counted the other night. Carter lifts the net causing Halak's skate to come loose from the post which Richards then scores. I wonder how many times Jackman is going to let Richards just sit there and hack away at the puck.
He lifted the net, shouldn't have counted by that. But it did not push Halak's foot forward. The net didn't come off the mooring's until after the goal. He lifted the net, didn't push the posts forward at all. Even if he didn't it shouldn't be enough force to keep your skate off the post as an NHL goalie. Also he wouldn't have had his foot "pushed" off the post so easily if he hadn't fallen to his stomach and instead stood tall and shifted his weight over to hug the post than putting himself in such a vulnerable position.

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03-31-2013, 01:05 AM
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mizzoublues29
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when Carter pushed the net forward, WHY WAS HE ON HIS STOMACH?!?!

His glove hand is actually pretty bad. Remember last year when he had to switch to a deeper pocket glove because his glove hand wasn't good enough? Yeah, well that hasn't changed.

Don't recall him getting beat on the post hug? Iginla goal and was why Trevor Lewis got his goal.

But a starter doesn't lose his job 2 years in a row to guys who have much less on their resume.
Oh c'mon watch the Richards goal again. He makes a save, pushes to his left to make another save (a very good one at that), and has to stretch out to make that save. Skate on the post, everything is looking good. When the net comes up that pushes his skate off the post as Jackman chases a wide-open Mike Richards to pound it home. The puck goes in through the newly created gap.

As for the Iginla/Lewis goals...that's not even remotely close to what I'm referring to with the post hug.

And goalies will constantly be changing their glove setups (among other pieces of equipment) throughout the course of a season. There was much more ado made about that entire situation.

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