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Calgary - Detroit

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Old
03-30-2013, 09:58 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
His skill set is perfect for Detroit. He moves the puck incredibly well, he's great in transition and he's big and hard to move off the puck. You dont get that in to many guys. It's one reason everyone was all over Dekeyser. He has some of the same skill set. Detroit's puck possession style fits these skill sets more than any other team in the league if you look at their players.
Bouwmeester moves the puck well, but certainly not incredibly well. Elite puck-movers don't perennially score in the 20-30 point range (as a minor point, they also don't log five giveaways for every takeaway---yes, that is Bouwmeester's ratio this season) so I can only conclude that you are either exaggerating or not in possession of a full understanding of his capabilities.

Note also that Detroit is no longer the only team in the league to play a puck-possession game. Finally, even if Detroit is the best fit for him, that doesn't mean that he's the best fit for Detroit.

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The Wings have also been linked to him since last summer after losing out on Suter. Go back and look.
The Wings have allegedly shown interest in him. That is vastly different from ardent pursuit of him.

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Lastly, you have no idea what Detroit is willing to give up for him. You might not want to but your not Ken Holland and the Wings have shown they're willing to move picks to make their team better. So at around 15-19 who you gonna get? Josh Morrissey? Someone like that. A player that might be ready in 3 years? The Wings would move that pick in a trade with Calgary if it meant they add Bouwmeester. Not a doubt in my mind.
Then we disagree. Given KH's focus on the farm as the team's future, I really doubt that he'll be trading away a pick in such a deep draft. And for the record, 2012 was the first time since 2004 (for Robert Lang) that Holland had traded away a 1st-round draft pick in exchange for a player. In every other year since 2004, he has only traded away his 1st in exchange for other picks in the draft.

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03-30-2013, 10:27 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Bouwmeester moves the puck well, but certainly not incredibly well. Elite puck-movers don't perennially score in the 20-30 point range (as a minor point, they also don't log five giveaways for every takeaway---yes, that is Bouwmeester's ratio this season) so I can only conclude that you are either exaggerating or not in possession of a full understanding of his capabilities.

Note also that Detroit is no longer the only team in the league to play a puck-possession game. Finally, even if Detroit is the best fit for him, that doesn't mean that he's the best fit for Detroit.



The Wings have allegedly shown interest in him. That is vastly different from ardent pursuit of him.



Then we disagree. Given KH's focus on the farm as the team's future, I really doubt that he'll be trading away a pick in such a deep draft. And for the record, 2012 was the first time since 2004 (for Robert Lang) that Holland had traded away a 1st-round draft pick in exchange for a player. In every other year since 2004, he has only traded away his 1st in exchange for other picks in the draft.
Nobody said "ardent pursuit of him" and guys that move the puck "extremely" well arent always point producers. See Brad Stuart.

As for other teams playing puck possession. That is absolutely true. At least they try more than in years past. It's the hybrid type players the Wings have that still sets their style apart. He fits with that style. Very well rounded type players. Two way players who play just as well with or without the puck.

I'd go out on a limb and say by this time next year, he'd not only be one of the most liked players in Detroit, but people would be shaking their heads on how little they gave up to get him.

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03-30-2013, 10:37 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
Nobody said "ardent pursuit of him" and guys that move the puck "extremely" well arent always point producers. See Brad Stuart.
You said "heavy interest." I paraphrased.

Brad Stuart does not move the puck "extremely well." Nobody on the planet has ever called him an exceptional puck-mover.

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As for other teams playing puck possession. That is absolutely true. At least they try more than in years past. It's the hybrid type players the Wings have that still sets their style apart. He fits with that style. Very well rounded type players. Two way players who play just as well with or without the puck.
He is not what anyone would call a very well-rounded player. He is somewhat capable on one end of the ice and very average on the other. And anyway, complete players fit in everywhere, so your point does not have much merit.

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I'd go out on a limb and say by this time next year, he'd not only be one of the most liked players in Detroit, but people would be shaking their heads on how little they gave up to get him.
I find that unlikely, given what I've seen of his play and the fact that his career has gone so far downhill in the past several seasons.

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03-30-2013, 10:44 PM
  #79
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Too much fail in this thread.

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03-30-2013, 10:47 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
You said "heavy interest." I paraphrased.

Brad Stuart does not move the puck "extremely well." Nobody on the planet has ever called him an exceptional puck-mover.



He is not what anyone would call a very well-rounded player. He is somewhat capable on one end of the ice and very average on the other. And anyway, complete players fit in everywhere, so your point does not have much merit.



I find that unlikely, given what I've seen of his play and the fact that his career has gone so far downhill in the past several seasons.
You're honestly not being fair or even giving Bouwmeester the credit for the player he is. We'll disagree on that. Is he overpaid? That's an absolute. Like I said earlier, if he made $4.5 million, fans would be all over what a great buy he is. The fact is, the Wings have some extra room, there is literally nobody in the UFA market, the guy can play 25 minutes a game and he's hovering around 30. I say he fits them to a tee. You disagree. That's cool and I can respect that. We shall see how it plays out.

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03-30-2013, 10:53 PM
  #81
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I would much, much rather the Wings pay big for Gaborik than Bouwmeester. At least Gaborik is good...

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03-30-2013, 10:54 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
You're honestly not being fair or even giving Bouwmeester the credit for the player he is. We'll disagree on that. Is he overpaid? That's an absolute. Like I said earlier, if he made $4.5 million, fans would be all over what a great buy he is. The fact is, the Wings have some extra room, there is literally nobody in the UFA market, the guy can play 25 minutes a game and he's hovering around 30. I say he fits them to a tee. You disagree. That's cool and I can respect that. We shall see how it plays out.
Is he worth what Feaster would demand for him? No, and I find the argument that we should pick him up simply because he's the only upper-tier defenseman available to be an empty one. That really shouldn't what recommends him.

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03-30-2013, 11:13 PM
  #83
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Is he worth what Feaster would demand for him? No, and I find the argument that we should pick him up simply because he's the only upper-tier defenseman available to be an empty one. That really shouldn't what recommends him.
You play this game to win Championships... Adding a Jay Bouwmeester to a really good core, gets you closer to that goal. He's a top pairing guy. He allows forwards not to work as hard to get to the puck. Much like Brad Stuart did by the way. Dont believe me, Im sure Babcock or Holland have discussed how good Stuart was in moving the puck out of his zone. First of all, they're rarely available. Secondly, the Wings have a deep pool of talent compared to most teams in the league. Acquiring him wont set their future back at all. The chance one or two of their D prospects reach his level is pretty low.

Like I said, we shall see.

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03-30-2013, 11:17 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
I would much, much rather the Wings pay big for Gaborik than Bouwmeester. At least Gaborik is good...
No need to be ignorant. If you would prefer to go after Gaborik that is fine, but to call Bouwmeester a bad hockey player is laughable, and extremely shortsighted. He would instantly make your team much better and would play on your top pairing.

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03-30-2013, 11:31 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
You play this game to win Championships... Adding a Jay Bouwmeester to a really good core, gets you closer to that goal. He's a top pairing guy. He allows forwards not to work as hard to get to the puck. Much like Brad Stuart did by the way. Dont believe me, Im sure Babcock or Holland have discussed how good Stuart was in moving the puck out of his zone. First of all, they're rarely available. Secondly, the Wings have a deep pool of talent compared to most teams in the league. Acquiring him wont set their future back at all. The chance one or two of their D prospects reach his level is pretty low.

Like I said, we shall see.
Except we aren't close to being a championship quality team. If you try to make a run every single year you end up like Toronto of old or Calgary of the now. You could do it before the salary cap because we, the wings, could buy anyone we want. In a salary cap world you have to pick your spots, go for it when your window is open stock up on picks/prospects when it's not.

We're a top 6 winger, a top 4, preferably top 2, dman away from competing for the cup. We're a playoff team but not a contender. Giving up the assets for Jbo doesn't make sense for the Wings.

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03-30-2013, 11:37 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
We're a top 6 winger, a top 4, preferably top 2, dman away from competing for the cup. We're a playoff team but not a contender. Giving up the assets for Jbo doesn't make sense for the Wings.
So using your logic it does make sense to trade assets for JBo if we also acquire a top 6 winger.

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03-30-2013, 11:43 PM
  #87
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Bouwmeester really is a great fit in Detroit. Some of the reactions from Red Wing fans in this thread are confusing. Bouwmeester wouldn't be here to make the defense better, he'd be here to make the offense better. He facilitates offense in a way that can't be measured by stats, and his stats in Calgary(no offense, I rooted for you guys this year) shouldn't be taken too seriously anyways. Watching Bouwmeester it's obvious he has elite skills in his skill set.

I think Bouwmeester would have an impact similar to the one Rafalski did, for what it's worth. That COULD be really valuable. Unfortunately I have zero faith in the Red Wings coaching and management at the moment, so I don't know if it'd be worth it to bring in a piece like Bouwmeester, until the Red Wings stop making decisions on the teams future from the bermuda triangle.

I would have happily given up a first and a top prospect around the time Rafalski retired. But the Red Wings are a disaster right now, and I don't see the point in bringing in another piece until things sort themselves out. Unless Calgary was interested in Franzen or any other number of mediocre forwards.

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03-30-2013, 11:47 PM
  #88
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Detroit is coming into a few, low, building years...thats inevitable. The question is, is it worth tacking on a couple more years of rebuild for a shot at a cup or two first.

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03-30-2013, 11:49 PM
  #89
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Is Bouwmeester a good player? Yes
Is he the missing link for THIS Detroit team? Doubtful

It's not the player, so much as it's the reported asking price that's got many here up in arms. Could Jaybo help this team? Yeah, more than likely. As I said above, I doubt he's the missing link that will push us to a cup. IMO we've got bigger holes that need to be addressed. As a team in transition we can't afford to be giving up 1st + top 5 prospect + etc, for someone with a skillset we have in almost every defenseman on our current roster.

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03-30-2013, 11:51 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Flames rebuilder View Post
Detroit is coming into a few, low, building years...thats inevitable. The question is, is it worth tacking on a couple more years of rebuild for a shot at a cup or two first.

I don't think the Wings are in that position. The problem isn't 3-6 years down the line. They have a solid talent pool. The problem is right now, and it's a big enough problem that it's not worth sacrificing that talent pool for someone who wouldn't be enough to change the fact that the current roster is in disarray.

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03-30-2013, 11:52 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Flames rebuilder View Post
Detroit is coming into a few, low, building years...thats inevitable. The question is, is it worth tacking on a couple more years of rebuild for a shot at a cup or two first.
Personally, i'm perfectly content with where the Wings are right now even though I know they aren't cup contenders. There is no deadline deal that is going to put this team over the top as a true SC contender.

The only way I want the Wings to trade significant assets (prospects or picks) is if it is for a young player with extremely high upside who can be with the Wings long term. Other than than I just don't see the point of making a move this deadline.

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03-30-2013, 11:57 PM
  #92
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Personally, i'm perfectly content with where the Wings are right now even though I know they aren't cup contenders. There is no deadline deal that is going to put this team over the top as a true SC contender.

The only way I want the Wings to trade significant assets (prospects or picks) is if it is for a young player with extremely high upside who can be with the Wings long term. Other than than I just don't see the point of making a move this deadline.
To be fair, with that logic, you might as well trade Kronwall, Datsyuk and Zetterberg then. The Wings are more than fine with prospects. In fact they actually have to many NHL caliber prospects. Bouwmeester is not an old player. He would be there tomorrow, next year and in 5 years when all these prospects are making NHL impact. It's not like their selling the farm for an Iginla.

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03-31-2013, 12:06 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obey86 View Post
Personally, i'm perfectly content with where the Wings are right now even though I know they aren't cup contenders. There is no deadline deal that is going to put this team over the top as a true SC contender.

The only way I want the Wings to trade significant assets (prospects or picks) is if it is for a young player with extremely high upside who can be with the Wings long term. Other than than I just don't see the point of making a move this deadline.
Pretty much what I'm feeling as well. Granted, Jaybo is only 29, so there IS potential for a long tenure with us...but again, I don't see Jaybo as the gamebreaker for us.

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03-31-2013, 12:22 AM
  #94
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Pretty much what I'm feeling as well. Granted, Jaybo is only 29, so there IS potential for a long tenure with us...but again, I don't see Jaybo as the gamebreaker for us.
Totally agree. Wings fans are excited about their prospects. Perhaps they overrate them, but I'm sure they are just excited to finally have a decent prospect pool for the first time in 20 years.

Honestly, I think Flames can get more from a team that is in the "win now" mode. Wings are a decent team, but they need more than Boumeester to be an over the top team.

As for trading Kronwall, Zetterberg and Datsuyk. Those three guys were drafted by the Wings and the fans take great pride in them. They help keep this team slightly above average and sell tickets. I see no point in trading them. I'm sure Illitch enjoys the ticket sales, especially in the Playoffs.

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03-31-2013, 12:24 AM
  #95
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To be fair, with that logic, you might as well trade Kronwall, Datsyuk and Zetterberg then. The Wings are more than fine with prospects. In fact they actually have to many NHL caliber prospects. Bouwmeester is not an old player. He would be there tomorrow, next year and in 5 years when all these prospects are making NHL impact. It's not like their selling the farm for an Iginla.
As far as that goes..

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"We're trying to make the playoffs but at the same time rebuild the team," Holland said. "I like our depth up front. We're set in goal. We're younger on defense. We have to be patient."
They are trying to do the near impossible basically. Rebuild the team into long term contention with youth and not bottom out with high draft picks and bad records. Very rarely is that successful. We'll see what happens. But right or wrong, stupid or smart, the Wings don't operate in a way that would mean trading away Datsyuk, Z, etc.

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03-31-2013, 01:57 AM
  #96
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As far as that goes..



They are trying to do the near impossible basically. Rebuild the team into long term contention with youth and not bottom out with high draft picks and bad records. Very rarely is that successful. We'll see what happens. But right or wrong, stupid or smart, the Wings don't operate in a way that would mean trading away Datsyuk, Z, etc.
I understand what Holland is doing. That doesnt mean sit and wait five years for these kids to start really contributing. He was more talking about the younger guys on Defense at the NHL level. You wouldnt move those guys. Prospects and picks he'd move. He proved it last year. Bouwmeester is 29. He's a top pairing guy. The Wings have the organizational depth to make the move and not even blink with the amount of NHL caliber prospects they have.

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03-31-2013, 03:19 AM
  #97
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The only way I want the Wings to trade significant assets (prospects or picks) is if it is for a young player with extremely high upside who can be with the Wings long term. Other than than I just don't see the point of making a move this deadline.
This statement feels like it's saying that the only way the Wings should trade prospects or picks is if they get a better prospect or proven player, but one so young that there's no downside whatsoever of trading the prospect or pick. This is an unreasonable standard by which to judge a trade in my opinion.

Also the idea that we're not cup contenders is problematic because we're in the new NHL... where anyone can be a cup contender. Even an 8 seed with a losing record. Seriously, the same reasons that make it harder for the Wings to maintain a dynastic hold on success... are those that also say you can't rule out almost any team come playoff time.

I still think Bouwmeester as a 29 year old first line D-man with at least 4-5 prime years left in him would be a great pickup. And I'd consider trading any prospect not named Jarnkrok, Sproul or Mrazek or any pick to get him.

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03-31-2013, 03:44 AM
  #98
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This statement feels like it's saying that the only way the Wings should trade prospects or picks is if they get a better prospect or proven player, but one so young that there's no downside whatsoever of trading the prospect or pick. This is an unreasonable standard by which to judge a trade in my opinion.

Also the idea that we're not cup contenders is problematic because we're in the new NHL... where anyone can be a cup contender. Even an 8 seed with a losing record. Seriously, the same reasons that make it harder for the Wings to maintain a dynastic hold on success... are those that also say you can't rule out almost any team come playoff time.

I still think Bouwmeester as a 29 year old first line D-man with at least 4-5 prime years left in him would be a great pickup. And I'd consider trading any prospect not named Jarnkrok, Sproul or Mrazek or any pick to get him.
Well, yeah. Why would you trade prospects if all you can get back is worse prospects or a non-proven player? You might as well just stick with what you have if that's the case.

And no, the Wings are not legit cup contenders. Don't care what happened last year with the 8th seed Kings, etc. Wings just aren't good enough this year.

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03-31-2013, 10:06 AM
  #99
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Well, yeah. Why would you trade prospects if all you can get back is worse prospects or a non-proven player? You might as well just stick with what you have if that's the case.

And no, the Wings are not legit cup contenders. Don't care what happened last year with the 8th seed Kings, etc. Wings just aren't good enough this year.
What really is a "legitimate contender" anymore? Pittsburgh, Chicago, Anaheim? Look at the Ducks recently. Look at Vancouver. It's changing daily. PHX, LA, NJ were all in the Final Four last year. I dont think anyone would've called that mid way through last season. We all knew LA was good but what they did in the playoffs was something special you dont see often. More, PHX and NJ actually had a shot.

A move or two can do wonders for a team. That and the continued emergence from guys like Kindl and Ericsson make the Wings just as formidable as the others.

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03-31-2013, 11:23 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
What really is a "legitimate contender" anymore? Pittsburgh, Chicago, Anaheim? Look at the Ducks recently. Look at Vancouver. It's changing daily. PHX, LA, NJ were all in the Final Four last year. I dont think anyone would've called that mid way through last season. We all knew LA was good but what they did in the playoffs was something special you dont see often. More, PHX and NJ actually had a shot.

A move or two can do wonders for a team. That and the continued emergence from guys like Kindl and Ericsson make the Wings just as formidable as the others.
To me, it's more or less just looking at the Wings roster which is essentially the same as it has been the last 2-3 years except the best players like Franzen, Datsyuk, and Z are older and less dynamic than they used to be and the defense overall is worse than it used to be.

Considering they haven't made it past the 2nd round in 3 years (?) and have looked increasingly worse in the playoffs every year and now have an older and worse roster......no, they are not legit cup contenders.

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