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Would the Habs benefit from a Heavyweight enforcer? Part 3

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Old
03-30-2013, 04:09 AM
  #201
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by VL55 View Post
Maybe not what you meant, but that's basically what you wrote. I scratched my head on that one.



Result from what? Based on what I read, result from the fight, since this is the only action listed. Se we were ahead by 2 and the result of the fight was... we came back in the 3rd.

Personnally, I don't think fighting Campbell had any effect on the game whatsoever. Maybe if it had been Lucic.
but... don't you know, with Campbell out for 5 minutes, Bruins couldnt engage with the Habs, they were missing a key part of their physicality!

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03-30-2013, 08:09 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Not to mention I'd take Scotty Bowman's comments long before Galchenyuk's.
Scotty may be speaking about today's NHL, but, when he coached his teams had the players to handle whatever situation arose during a game. His Stanley Cup winning teams of the 70s had players like Bouchard, Chartraw & Lupien & Cam Connor, who were adequate players for the post expansion watered down NHL, but, in today's NHL would be only be on a contending roster for their physical contributions if at all. His Detroit winner also had Joe Kocur, who many consider 1 of the top enforcers ever to play the game.

Even though Lupien was a poor fighter and Chartraw never embraced a role as a tough guy or any serious role as a hockey player for that matter, Scotty obviously preferred the option of having them in the penalty box for 5 minutes or more leaving Robinson, Lapointe & others for the job of scoring or preventing goals. These teams never named anyone as an enforcer, but, these players had a role on the team. Robinson sent the clear message to the Broad Street Bullies that there reign of terror wasn't going to win them another Stanley Cup without more talent to go with it, the other contributed to that message in a big way too.

Scotty knew very well that physical intimidation had to be dealt with to be successful and when he put Bouchard & Lupien on the ice when O'reilly, Wensink or Jonathan were on the ice it wasn't to prevent Wensink from scoring a hat trick.

Another HOF coach & GM also saw the value of calling up the original 'enforcer' in 1964 to counter the physical intimidation of other teams leading the way several Stanley Cups in the 60s & early 70s.

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03-30-2013, 08:41 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Carbo N8 View Post
Scotty may be speaking about today's NHL, but, when he coached his teams had the players to handle whatever situation arose during a game. His Stanley Cup winning teams of the 70s had players like Bouchard, Chartraw & Lupien & Cam Connor, who were adequate players for the post expansion watered down NHL, but, in today's NHL would be only be on a contending roster for their physical contributions if at all. His Detroit winner also had Joe Kocur, who many consider 1 of the top enforcers ever to play the game.

Even though Lupien was a poor fighter and Chartraw never embraced a role as a tough guy or any serious role as a hockey player for that matter, Scotty obviously preferred the option of having them in the penalty box for 5 minutes or more leaving Robinson, Lapointe & others for the job of scoring or preventing goals. These teams never named anyone as an enforcer, but, these players had a role on the team. Robinson sent the clear message to the Broad Street Bullies that there reign of terror wasn't going to win them another Stanley Cup without more talent to go with it, the other contributed to that message in a big way too.

Scotty knew very well that physical intimidation had to be dealt with to be successful and when he put Bouchard & Lupien on the ice when O'reilly, Wensink or Jonathan were on the ice it wasn't to prevent Wensink from scoring a hat trick.

Another HOF coach & GM also saw the value of calling up the original 'enforcer' in 1964 to counter the physical intimidation of other teams leading the way several Stanley Cups in the 60s & early 70s.
This thread is about a 5min a game enforcer whose only role is to fight. As you even hinted at all those players could also play hockey to a certain extent. Kocur averaged around 20pts a season with Detroit. They weren't there just to fight, just like Prust is not on this team just to fight. Why bring up Robinson, I'm sure everyone would love to have one of the best defenceman ever but I don't think you'll find him with the waiver claim pick ups most in this thread are clamoring for.

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03-30-2013, 08:48 AM
  #204
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Hmm. Well, we haven't really needed one so far. Why get one at this point? We've thought that one be useful for the games that were coming a few weeks ago. But we haven't had much need of one.

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03-30-2013, 09:13 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Like the winningest coach in NHL history Scotty Bowman saying "If you have a guy that just specializes in fighting, itís a handicap"
If Scotty Bowman is truly thinking this, he's hypocritical. Look at his roster when he won in Montreal and come back to tell me that he did it without toughness in his line-ups. Yes, I'll take the word of a player on the ice prior to a coach off the ice, as good as he might be, especially when that said coach made a living with tough players (for the most part).

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Originally Posted by Corncob View Post
Is this supposed to be a reply to me? Weak if so. Galchenyuk is talking about Prust, a player who plays on the same line as Galchenyuk.

Find me a quote about Galchenyuk saying 'I'd find the scrums so much more secure if we had a big goon sitting on the bench picking his nails and watching Milan Lucic facewash me' and he might start to be supporting the generic 'must get a goon'.

Now, if you think you're arguing with anyone who thinks Prust's physical contribution is not useful to the Habs, fine. I'm not really sure who that is though.
If I'm addressing you, I'll quote you... just as I did right now. If you felt like the hat fit, that's your feeling.

For the record, if you look at my posts in this thread, yes I'm calling out those who are against fighting or mostly, those who mistakenly think it has no effect on a team. But you'll also notice that I've been signing the same song since the beginning: no Bordeleau or any other guy who plays 5 minutes a game. I want guys who can skate 10 minutes plus.

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03-30-2013, 09:15 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
This thread is about a 5min a game enforcer whose only role is to fight.
No it's not. That's the biggest mistake some of you make.

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03-30-2013, 09:32 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
If Scotty Bowman is truly thinking this, he's hypocritical. Look at his roster when he won in Montreal and come back to tell me that he did it without toughness in his line-ups. Yes, I'll take the word of a player on the ice prior to a coach off the ice, as good as he might be, especially when that said coach made a living with tough players (for the most part).
This isn't a toughness thread this is a heavyweight enforcer thread. Bowman never said you don't need toughness he said a guy who is only there to fight is a handicap.

And if you seriously are going to take the opinion of a 19 year old rookie over that of a coach who has 1244 wins and 9 Stanley Cups you need to re-evaluate things.

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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
No it's not. That's the biggest mistake some of you make.
If this is not about enforcers then why is it the thread title and why are people always clamoring for every 5 min a game fighter that passes through waivers. Maybe you should go back through this thread and check out the most common list of names given. If you are saying we need a guy who can give a solid 10 min a game and can also fight there would be a lot less disagreements.

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03-30-2013, 10:40 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
This thread is about a 5min a game enforcer whose only role is to fight. As you even hinted at all those players could also play hockey to a certain extent. Kocur averaged around 20pts a season with Detroit. They weren't there just to fight, just like Prust is not on this team just to fight. Why bring up Robinson, I'm sure everyone would love to have one of the best defenceman ever but I don't think you'll find him with the waiver claim pick ups most in this thread are clamoring for.
Kocur was only there to fight.

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03-30-2013, 10:48 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
Kocur was only there to fight.
So how did he get 36 points in 89-90?

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03-30-2013, 11:15 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
So how did he get 36 points in 89-90?
He took Probert's ice time and minutes when he was out of the line up and had a few bounces go his way. Complete statistical anomaly compared to the rest of his career.

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03-30-2013, 11:28 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
He took Probert's ice time and minutes when he was out of the line up and had a few bounces go his way. Complete statistical anomaly compared to the rest of his career.
Even before then he was averaging a little over a point every 4 games which is not inconsequential. The point is he provided more than just his fists.

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03-30-2013, 11:32 AM
  #212
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one season of 36 pts. After that, all under 18pts. And during this time, it was more easy to get pts.............

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03-30-2013, 11:43 AM
  #213
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if you don't considere is fluke season of 36pts, he got 134pts in 749 games, so average under 14.5pts in 82 games.

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03-30-2013, 11:48 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
If Scotty Bowman is truly thinking this, he's hypocritical. Look at his roster when he won in Montreal and come back to tell me that he did it without toughness in his line-ups. Yes, I'll take the word of a player on the ice prior to a coach off the ice, as good as he might be, especially when that said coach made a living with tough players (for the most part).


If I'm addressing you, I'll quote you... just as I did right now. If you felt like the hat fit, that's your feeling.

For the record, if you look at my posts in this thread, yes I'm calling out those who are against fighting or mostly, those who mistakenly think it has no effect on a team. But you'll also notice that I've been signing the same song since the beginning: no Bordeleau or any other guy who plays 5 minutes a game. I want guys who can skate 10 minutes plus.
So basically you want everything.

Wow! This is the real world. Players like the ones you want are very rare. The only way I see the Habs getting this ideal player is if they draft a tough guy and groom him to be an adequate hockey player in the AHL. Which could take years....

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03-30-2013, 01:04 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
if you don't considere is fluke season of 36pts, he got 134pts in 749 games, so average under 14.5pts in 82 games.
In his prime he was at 0.25 - 0.3 ppg which is very good for a fourth liner. Meanwhile guys that you've promoted like Bordeleau and Kassian are closer to 5 points a season and don't even have a prime. That's a pretty significant difference.

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03-30-2013, 01:24 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
In his prime he was at 0.25 - 0.3 ppg which is very good for a fourth liner. Meanwhile guys that you've promoted like Bordeleau and Kassian are closer to 5 points a season and don't even have a prime. That's a pretty significant difference.
you can't comparing it. If Kocur would have played in the modern area, he would not have been a 0.25ppg player........you probably never watched him play too lol

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03-30-2013, 09:26 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
This isn't a toughness thread this is a heavyweight enforcer thread. Bowman never said you don't need toughness he said a guy who is only there to fight is a handicap.

And if you seriously are going to take the opinion of a 19 year old rookie over that of a coach who has 1244 wins and 9 Stanley Cups you need to re-evaluate things.

If this is not about enforcers then why is it the thread title and why are people always clamoring for every 5 min a game fighter that passes through waivers. Maybe you should go back through this thread and check out the most common list of names given. If you are saying we need a guy who can give a solid 10 min a game and can also fight there would be a lot less disagreements.
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
So basically you want everything.

Wow! This is the real world. Players like the ones you want are very rare. The only way I see the Habs getting this ideal player is if they draft a tough guy and groom him to be an adequate hockey player in the AHL. Which could take years....
What is Clowe in your opinion? In mine, he's an enforcer who can play hockey, similarly to Milan Lucic, Brandon Prust, Chris Neil and David Clarkson (just to name a few).

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03-30-2013, 10:58 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by VL55 View Post
Maybe not what you meant, but that's basically what you wrote. I scratched my head on that one.



Result from what? Based on what I read, result from the fight, since this is the only action listed. Se we were ahead by 2 and the result of the fight was... we came back in the 3rd.

Personnally, I don't think fighting Campbell had any effect on the game whatsoever. Maybe if it had been Lucic.
Not even close again. You are missing the words that you are ignoring.

".....it did settle down the game."

The fight had no impact on the scoring since the Bruins scored 4 goals in the 2nd and the Habs came back in the 3rd to tie the game.

Let me repeat that again for you.

"......it did settle down the game."

The Bruins were starting to goon it up. Moen fought Campbell. After that, the game went away from the Bruins gooning to playing a hockey game.

You with me now or will you again project your thoughts on what I posted and take it out of context?

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03-30-2013, 11:23 PM
  #219
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Having a goon and some toughness on your team might turn around a game once and a while. The main reason to have a goon and toughness is so that guys like Gorges don`t have to fight Mcclaren from Toronto or Gally doesn`t have to fight a guy like King from Toronto I think that's the guy Gally fought. We don`t want our best players injured because we have no toughness.

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03-31-2013, 07:31 AM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
This thread is about a 5min a game enforcer whose only role is to fight. As you even hinted at all those players could also play hockey to a certain extent. Kocur averaged around 20pts a season with Detroit. They weren't there just to fight, just like Prust is not on this team just to fight. Why bring up Robinson, I'm sure everyone would love to have one of the best defenceman ever but I don't think you'll find him with the waiver claim pick ups most in this thread are clamoring for.
Those players I mentioned could play a role for that era; I'm not sure they would make the NHL if they were trying today other than perhaps Bouchard. Just because Scotty didn't see players as enforcers or refer to them as such doesn't mean that he didn't use players to fulfil this type of role.

Kocur averaged 20 pts. per season in an era when teams were scoring a lot more goals than they do today and yes Kocur's main job was as an enforcer.

I only mentioned Robinson in passing and never suggested that he would be found on the waiver wire.

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03-31-2013, 08:10 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
If I'm addressing you, I'll quote you... just as I did right now. If you felt like the hat fit, that's your feeling.
Well it was clearly a reply to some post(s) and as you didn't quote anyone specifically, hence my query whether you intended it as a reply to the one I posted just previously which had replied to your point....

Quote:
For the record, if you look at my posts in this thread, yes I'm calling out those who are against fighting or mostly, those who mistakenly think it has no effect on a team. But you'll also notice that I've been signing the same song since the beginning: no Bordeleau or any other guy who plays 5 minutes a game. I want guys who can skate 10 minutes plus.
The problem is that there seems to be an assumption that there are two camps here 'pro-toughness' and 'anti-toughness' which realistically is not how it stacks up. You do have some posters who think 'physical play' (not going to just restrict it to fighting specifically) is not necessary, but they're pretty much few and far between. You have some on the opposite extreme, like MaxPac and SouthernHab who think we should be picking up any goon who happens to hit the waiver wire and think eternal shame is the result if a fight doesn't happen anytime someone touches a Habs player.

Mostly people are someplace in the middle recognising that physical play does play a part in the make up of a team to some extent or other, but not wanting to sacrifice the current identity of the team to chase some mythical standard of toughness that doesn't exist.

Problem is that the people at the extreme ends of the argument (and the the more numerous and more vocal ones at the Bordelau fetish end particularly) have been quite successful in defining people as either for or against and the debate suffers as a result.

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03-31-2013, 08:27 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Carbo N8 View Post
Those players I mentioned could play a role for that era; I'm not sure they would make the NHL if they were trying today other than perhaps Bouchard. Just because Scotty didn't see players as enforcers or refer to them as such doesn't mean that he didn't use players to fulfil this type of role.

Kocur averaged 20 pts. per season in an era when teams were scoring a lot more goals than they do today and yes Kocur's main job was as an enforcer.

I only mentioned Robinson in passing and never suggested that he would be found on the waiver wire.
He's was a fourth liner so of course his main role was to provide physical play/fighting/energy. Scoring was higher but even so it would translate to about 15pts a season. He may have been an enforcer first and foremost but he could bring other elements to the game which is why he wasn't a handicap.

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03-31-2013, 08:31 AM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
What is Clowe in your opinion? In mine, he's an enforcer who can play hockey, similarly to Milan Lucic, Brandon Prust, Chris Neil and David Clarkson (just to name a few).
Clowe, Lucic, Clarkson are hockey players first that can fight. Prust and Neil are in that grey area between hockey players that can fight and enforcers that can play.

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03-31-2013, 10:14 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
He's was a fourth liner so of course his main role was to provide physical play/fighting/energy. Scoring was higher but even so it would translate to about 15pts a season. He may have been an enforcer first and foremost but he could bring other elements to the game which is why he wasn't a handicap.

you don't seem to understand that in this area, it's was more easy to put pts. Rob Ray got 16pts in is first year and he was a terrible player that played 4-5 min a game..........

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03-31-2013, 10:30 AM
  #225
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you don't seem to understand that in this area, it's was more easy to put pts. Rob Ray got 16pts in is first year and he was a terrible player that played 4-5 min a game..........
I understand perfectly well but you're missing the point. It doesn't matter why they were able to contribute it matters that they DID. The reason an enforcer is a handicap now is because they can't contribute anything besides fighting.

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