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Grand Rapids Griffins 2012-13 ‎- Part 2

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Old
03-31-2013, 06:48 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
I'm very confident Babcock didn't send Tatar back down to Grand Rapids. And let's be real: he's the only one out of the three who's performed at the NHL level. I've got no problem admitting I didn't think Tatar would be our best prospect, but right now he's up there with Smith as the two prospects who are ready for NHL action. Tough to make the case that Mursak and Nyquist were contributors at the NHL level. Sorry if that hurts some people's feelings.
Nyquist was playing on the fourth line. He's going to become a Kindl/Mursak where we aren't going to find out if he is truly productive in the NHL because he'll never get an extended chance and will always be put in horrid circumstances.

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03-31-2013, 06:51 PM
  #752
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I hope Nyquist and Jarnkork both work their ***** off in the weight room this summer. If they both make some strides there I feel like they will make the decision to keep them off the roster very difficult for management.

Hopefully Nyquist has a spot next year guaranteed, because the whole 'grabbing hold of something' argument is garbage. Tatar proved that. At the same time the amount of guys we have under contract this year and next is a problem. A legitimate big problem. Hopefully guys get bought out or moved.

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03-31-2013, 07:50 PM
  #753
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My point is that Holland and Babcock have a veteran fetish. And that this silly business about developing prospects until they are overripe has more to do with how Babcock uses veterans and Kenny's famous two-year extensions

So young players, if they ever get their shot, get very little opportunity to make their case.

This isn't all on Holland. A lot of this has to do with how Babcock employs kids.
From my perspective, it looks like Holland has already implemented the rebuild and youth movement. People don't like the Sammuelson or Colo contract, but they are only here for two years. Doesn't that say something to you? To me, it says we are plugging our lineup until the kids are ready to make an impact. And look at all the prospects that have played this year already: Kindl, Smith, Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson, Lashoff. How many more do you want? If our guys were as good as some fans think, Babs would play them. Simple as that. You don't build a team with a bunch of similar style/type/size players. You need to have players that fit the system. There will be a lot of change this summer, but I think Holland is thinking more long term than some of us fans.

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03-31-2013, 08:27 PM
  #754
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From my perspective, it looks like Holland has already implemented the rebuild and youth movement. People don't like the Sammuelson or Colo contract, but they are only here for two years. Doesn't that say something to you? To me, it says we are plugging our lineup until the kids are ready to make an impact. And look at all the prospects that have played this year already: Kindl, Smith, Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson, Lashoff. How many more do you want? If our guys were as good as some fans think, Babs would play them. Simple as that. You don't build a team with a bunch of similar style/type/size players. You need to have players that fit the system. There will be a lot of change this summer, but I think Holland is thinking more long term than some of us fans.
This post is so hypocritical I don't even know what to say.

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03-31-2013, 10:23 PM
  #755
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Tatar has been pretty bad since going back. He can be upset or whatever, but he needs to start playing better hockey in Grand Rapids to help prove his point.
Why should he? He's played well for over 3 seasons now, gotten progressively better, came to the NHL, put on a show that put 5 or 6 of our regulars to shame nightly...and yet still got his ticket punched for Grand Rapids.

They're lucky he's willing to suit up for the Griffins while he watches guys like Cleary, Emmerton, Abdelkader, et al suit up for the Wings.

From October 2012
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“This is my fourth year here and I really like it here, but you start to look at your future,” said the 22-year-old forward with the Grand Rapids Griffins. “I’ve been close, but we’ll see. I’ll give it a couple more years to make the Red Wings. If not, I have interest going with the KHL, so we’ll see what happens.”
From March 2013
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“Obviously there is a little disappointment but this is how it is,” Tatar said. “I expected to be sent down when guys get back no matter how good I would do."

“I think I showed I could play up there, too. So I’m just going to wait for something to happen, or just wait for something to happen for next season.”

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03-31-2013, 10:27 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by cupforwings09 View Post
From my perspective, it looks like Holland has already implemented the rebuild and youth movement. People don't like the Sammuelson or Colo contract, but they are only here for two years. Doesn't that say something to you? To me, it says we are plugging our lineup until the kids are ready to make an impact. And look at all the prospects that have played this year already: Kindl, Smith, Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson, Lashoff. How many more do you want? If our guys were as good as some fans think, Babs would play them. Simple as that. You don't build a team with a bunch of similar style/type/size players. You need to have players that fit the system. There will be a lot of change this summer, but I think Holland is thinking more long term than some of us fans.
This is a pretty terrible post for a number of reasons. This forum has handily destroyed pretty much every argument you've made here, so I don't feel the need to go into detail.

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03-31-2013, 10:33 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Why should he? He's played well for over 3 seasons now, gotten progressively better, came to the NHL, put on a show that put 5 or 6 of our regulars to shame nightly...and yet still got his ticket punched for Grand Rapids.

They're lucky he's willing to suit up for the Griffins while he watches guys like Cleary, Emmerton, Abdelkader, et al suit up for the Wings.

From October 2012


From March 2013
We all feel bad for him, but sorry that doesn't excuse a guy of his talents not playing up to them. You guys want to rake Franzen over the coals, then fine what does this say about Tatar? He needs to play better where he is, they aren't lucky, that is the point of a contract.

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04-01-2013, 07:39 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
This is a pretty terrible post for a number of reasons. This forum has handily destroyed pretty much every argument you've made here, so I don't feel the need to go into detail.
A terrible post? He has more vision and insight on the future of the team than you do. And please, if it's been dismantled, why don't you copy and paste them on here.

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04-01-2013, 05:31 PM
  #759
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A terrible post? He has more vision and insight on the future of the team than you do. And please, if it's been dismantled, why don't you copy and paste them on here.
I wouldn't say "terrible", but I don't agree with that original post.

The only reason most of the young guys you've listed played at all is because of the unusually high number of injuries the team has faced.

Lashoff was never expected to play much this season and we had I think 15 forwards on one-way contracts to start, meaning the only way Tatar, Nyquist, and Andersson would play is if more than 3 forwards were injured at once, which isn't very common (though it is on this team).

Signing old players to mutliyear deals does not show a commitment to youth. Bertuzzi, Colo, and Samuelsson all received such even though we had younger players in waiting. If Holland wanted more youth on the team, he didn't need to fill the roster to the brim for multiple years. Plugs are for one year. Two is a commitment. Leaving even a single roster space open for one call up at a time would show that, but it didn't happen. It was solely injuries that gave most of these kids a chance.

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04-01-2013, 06:04 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by petesrw View Post
I wouldn't say "terrible", but I don't agree with that original post.

The only reason most of the young guys you've listed played at all is because of the unusually high number of injuries the team has faced.

Lashoff was never expected to play much this season and we had I think 15 forwards on one-way contracts to start, meaning the only way Tatar, Nyquist, and Andersson would play is if more than 3 forwards were injured at once, which isn't very common (though it is on this team).

Signing old players to mutliyear deals does not show a commitment to youth. Bertuzzi, Colo, and Samuelsson all received such even though we had younger players in waiting. If Holland wanted more youth on the team, he didn't need to fill the roster to the brim for multiple years. Plugs are for one year. Two is a commitment. Leaving even a single roster space open for one call up at a time would show that, but it didn't happen. It was solely injuries that gave most of these kids a chance.
Signing old players to multiyear deals is bad if you're planning on building a team. Signing them as plugs (1-2 year deals), is fine when you're in transition, which this team is in.

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04-01-2013, 09:04 PM
  #761
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Signing old players to multiyear deals is bad if you're planning on building a team. Signing them as plugs (1-2 year deals), is fine when you're in transition, which this team is in.
But why sign them to two year deals? It's coming back to bite us now, as we have so many plugs still under contract next year, when we have all of these young players who have been playing their way onto the team.

They knew they would have this cluster**** (meaning we have 10 forwards already under contract with decisions to make on Filppula, Cleary, Brunner, Miller, Andersson, Nyquist, Tatar(?), and potential free agents), but still went with the option that is making it more difficult to get younger.

They have NTCs for goodness sake. That's commitment if I've ever seen it. Is Holland really going to buy one of these guys out? If he doesn't, we'll have to trade or waive some of the above players (as well as Smith and Kindl on D). We might lose some of our youth all because of these 2-year deals. That doesn't make a lot of sense if you are trying to rebuild the team.

Because of the extra year, the plugs are clogging up the system.

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04-01-2013, 09:47 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
We all feel bad for him, but sorry that doesn't excuse a guy of his talents not playing up to them. You guys want to rake Franzen over the coals, then fine what does this say about Tatar? He needs to play better where he is, they aren't lucky, that is the point of a contract.
He's earning 10 percent of his contract.

When he should be earning 100 percent.

Money talks. Holland's ******** Walks.

And so will Tatar when given the chance.


All over the NHL, teams that are BETTER than Detroit give prospects WORSE than Tatar icetime, and they cut veterans to make it happen.

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04-01-2013, 10:23 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
He's earning 10 percent of his contract.

When he should be earning 100 percent.

Money talks. Holland's ******** Walks.

And so will Tatar when given the chance.


All over the NHL, teams that are BETTER than Detroit give prospects WORSE than Tatar icetime, and they cut veterans to make it happen.
I legitimately think if Tatar was drafted by any other team in the league he would be on an NHL roster by now. Same with Gustav Nyquist.

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04-01-2013, 10:26 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by petesrw View Post
But why sign them to two year deals? It's coming back to bite us now, as we have so many plugs still under contract next year, when we have all of these young players who have been playing their way onto the team.

They knew they would have this cluster**** (meaning we have 10 forwards already under contract with decisions to make on Filppula, Cleary, Brunner, Miller, Andersson, Nyquist, Tatar(?), and potential free agents), but still went with the option that is making it more difficult to get younger.

They have NTCs for goodness sake. That's commitment if I've ever seen it. Is Holland really going to buy one of these guys out? If he doesn't, we'll have to trade or waive some of the above players (as well as Smith and Kindl on D). We might lose some of our youth all because of these 2-year deals. That doesn't make a lot of sense if you are trying to rebuild the team.

Because of the extra year, the plugs are clogging up the system.
I don't think it's necessarily the extra year given to guys like Bert and Sammy that are killing us, but Holland being unwilling to make moves to compensate for these signings. Coming into this season, I was okay with signing Sammy and Tootoo to bulk up the right side, but then Holland needed to clear some room elsewhere. Move Miller, move Eaves.

Holland deals a couple of guys, Tatar and Nyquist are up for a full season this year. Then Cleary is gone after this season. Maybe Flip. and we have a couple of roster spots to either promote a kid (Sheahan, Jarnkrok) or go after a UFA.

It's Holland's decision to just stockpile, stockpile, and stockpile that backs up the system a bit and lets assets rot on the vine.

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04-01-2013, 10:57 PM
  #765
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I don't think it's necessarily the extra year given to guys like Bert and Sammy that are killing us, but Holland being unwilling to make moves to compensate for these signings. Coming into this season, I was okay with signing Sammy and Tootoo to bulk up the right side, but then Holland needed to clear some room elsewhere. Move Miller, move Eaves.

Holland deals a couple of guys, Tatar and Nyquist are up for a full season this year. Then Cleary is gone after this season. Maybe Flip. and we have a couple of roster spots to either promote a kid (Sheahan, Jarnkrok) or go after a UFA.

It's Holland's decision to just stockpile, stockpile, and stockpile that backs up the system a bit and lets assets rot on the vine.
I agree for the most part, though we are counting on Holland to make tough decisions that he hasn't made in years. His loyalty will be tested for sure between potential buyouts and not resigning solid players that have been with us for many years, or maybe losing multiple prospects.

Following the rule "don't sign old guys for more than one year" would have given the team a ton more flexibility.

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04-01-2013, 11:03 PM
  #766
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I agree for the most part, though we are counting on Holland to make tough decisions that he hasn't made in years. His loyalty will be tested for sure between potential buyouts and not resigning solid players that have been with us for many years, or maybe losing multiple prospects.

Following the rule "don't sign old guys for more than one year" would have given the team a ton more flexibility.
I'm not expecting any buyouts, and i won't be happy if he re-signs any UFA other than Brunner and Flip. And Flip would increasingly depend on his contract. It's not like our top prospect is Ryan Barnes. We have kids who should be getting their shot.

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04-01-2013, 11:44 PM
  #767
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
He's earning 10 percent of his contract.

When he should be earning 100 percent.

Money talks. Holland's ******** Walks.

And so will Tatar when given the chance.


All over the NHL, teams that are BETTER than Detroit give prospects WORSE than Tatar icetime, and they cut veterans to make it happen.
I have pointed that out several times, we have both stated over and over that the Wings should be very concerned about the KHL. That he deserves to be up. Sorry that doesn't excuse him not playing hard for the last two weeks and it doesn't help make his point. He played his best hockey for two weeks before he got called up, he needs to ramp it back up right now and try. My point is he isn't trying and that stinks to watch, even if he is discouraged he does himself no favors not trying. If he does get up this way he won't be very sharp.

We are talking about two different things. I am on the Griffins thread pointing out this team needs more from Tatar and really for him to help make his point so does he. That if you haven't watched the games lately not only did the guy who was playing in Detroit not show up (I expected some unhappiness and drop off) but he is playing probably his worst hockey of the year period. You might post the game score box on here and you do know about the team, but honestly how often do you watch them?

Tatar has been very poor here lately, so has Sheahan. I cannot explain the drop off, other than both look entirely worse without Nyquist in a Griffins jersey. I know we want these guys on the Wings, but I would like to see Sheahan and Tatar snap out of their funk a little bit, the Griffins need them right now and I do care about that team as well.

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04-02-2013, 12:02 AM
  #768
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It's not like our top prospect is Ryan Barnes.

Those were the days.
Honestly, I thought Tatar was the best looking rookie forward we've seen since 2002-03 when Zetterberg was a rookie.
Better than Flip. Better than Hudler. Better than Franzen. Better than Helm.

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04-02-2013, 12:05 AM
  #769
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I'm not expecting any buyouts, and i won't be happy if he re-signs any UFA other than Brunner and Flip. And Flip would increasingly depend on his contract. It's not like our top prospect is Ryan Barnes. We have kids who should be getting their shot.
There is nothing worse than a night like tonight when Cleary scores, I am happy but a part of it fills my stomach with dread that he just did something of value. Plus I know he wants to stay here above all else.

I do think Holland likes Nyquist enough he is getting his shot next year. I know he has to in terms of up in the league, but I just cannot see him blocking him to be a press box player.


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04-02-2013, 10:46 AM
  #770
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Those were the days.
Honestly, I thought Tatar was the best looking rookie forward we've seen since 2002-03 when Zetterberg was a rookie.
Better than Flip. Better than Hudler. Better than Franzen. Better than Helm.
I think flip was better defensively, but Tatar was a lot more assertive. There was a confidence to his play that I don't remember seeing since Z. He shouldn't have been sent down. We should have moved someone and kept him in the lineup.

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04-02-2013, 10:49 AM
  #771
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There is nothing worse than a night like tonight when Cleary scores, I am happy but a part of it fills my stomach with dread that he just did something of value. Plus I know he wants to stay here above all else.

I do think Holland likes Nyquist enough he is getting his shot next year. I know he has to in terms of up in the league, but I just cannot see him blocking him to be a press box player.
my worry with Cleary is that Holland will extend a courtesy deal for some low amount (2 years/$2.5m or something) and Cleary takes it because no one offers him anything better. It'll be some low amount that is hard to argue against only based on the cap hit, except it will screw up our lineup structure beyond all recognition.

edit: and,yea, I agree about Nyquist. I think his ticket is punched for next season regardless and he will be in the lineup. I think Tatar's earned it, too, though. Maybe Jarnkrok. There's a pessimistic part of me that doesn't expect room to be made for them until it has to be, though.

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04-02-2013, 11:05 AM
  #772
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my worry with Cleary is that Holland will extend a courtesy deal for some low amount (2 years/$2.5m or something) and Cleary takes it because no one offers him anything better. It'll be some low amount that is hard to argue against only based on the cap hit, except it will screw up our lineup structure beyond all recognition.

edit: and,yea, I agree about Nyquist. I think his ticket is punched for next season regardless and he will be in the lineup. I think Tatar's earned it, too, though. Maybe Jarnkrok. There's a pessimistic part of me that doesn't expect room to be made for them until it has to be, though.
I think most share this concern. I've always said the cards will play themselves out sooner or later, but I'd much prefer sooner and get this "retool" kick-started. Wings are really in no position to contend next season as it stands and frankly the very very small risk of Tatar/Nyquist/Jarnkrok doing any worse than Miller/Eaves/Cleary, is worth it x 100.

Tatar-Datsyuk-Brunner
Nyquist-Z-Franzen
Jarnkrok-Helm-Sammy
Abdelkader-Andersson-Tootoo
Emmerton, Eaves

Two "veterans" and a kid on each line. Yeah, I assumed Fil outprices himself. Season after that Sheahan and Ferraro make their entrance when we say goodbye to Sammy and Eaves.

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04-02-2013, 11:16 AM
  #773
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What's up with Järnkrok, did he play those 3 games during the weekend? It's a shame he didn't put up any numbers

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04-02-2013, 11:53 AM
  #774
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What's up with Järnkrok, did he play those 3 games during the weekend? It's a shame he didn't put up any numbers
he's looked good though despite the numbers. his passing is great, he played bigger than he is, he blocked shots and back checked. I can definitely see the Zetterberg comparison. he will have no problems next year on NA ice. he might spend time in GR but I could also see him jumping right to the show. they played some really hot goalies over the weekend and he could have had 4-5 assist if it wasn't for that.

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04-02-2013, 04:19 PM
  #775
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I think most share this concern. I've always said the cards will play themselves out sooner or later, but I'd much prefer sooner and get this "retool" kick-started. Wings are really in no position to contend next season as it stands and frankly the very very small risk of Tatar/Nyquist/Jarnkrok doing any worse than Miller/Eaves/Cleary, is worth it x 100.

Tatar-Datsyuk-Brunner
Nyquist-Z-Franzen
Jarnkrok-Helm-Sammy
Abdelkader-Andersson-Tootoo
Emmerton, Eaves

Two "veterans" and a kid on each line. Yeah, I assumed Fil outprices himself. Season after that Sheahan and Ferraro make their entrance when we say goodbye to Sammy and Eaves.
I keep hoping for something similar to that, too. Though, I noticed Bertuzzi magically disappeared

What bugs me is that Tatar and Nyquist could have been getting a lot of those growing pains out of the way right now, in a shortened season, and had been more ready to go next year. Instead, it just gets backed up another year.

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