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Old
08-14-2006, 09:48 PM
  #1
NYRGraves9
 
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Graves Number Retired?

After all Graves did for the organization (holding the single season scoring record before Jagr, win the cup as an alternate captain, all the charities in New York). The list goes on. Do you think that Gravey should be able to take his rightful place, hanging from the rafters at MSG. Yes or no? Should #9 be retired?








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Old
08-14-2006, 09:48 PM
  #2
in the hall
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yes but i don't think they do it before Leetch gets his number retired

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08-14-2006, 09:50 PM
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He has a strong case, but it won't get retired.

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08-14-2006, 09:53 PM
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Ive got mixed feelings on it. I wouldnt be too upset either way.

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08-14-2006, 11:02 PM
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No, I don't think his number should be retired. After #2 it should be a while before any other number receives consideration.

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08-15-2006, 02:29 AM
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He most certainly was an integral part of the cup team as well as a long time Ranger and a solid contributor over years. But so were a lot others and considering the Rangers only have 4 numbers retired, I don't think he was THAT important for the franchise.

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08-15-2006, 03:09 AM
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I think this ones been discussed before. Personally I'd love to see it. In reality I don't expect to see it. Graves was great, and is definetly in my top five favorites though.

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08-15-2006, 07:48 AM
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With only 4 #'s retired by the franchise after all these years and great players, I do not think that Graves will get, or deserves it, if you look at the history of some of the other great Ranger's. Of the retired #'s, (if you count Leetch's soon to be #),three of the five will have come from the 94 cup core, and while Graves was an integral part, it sort of leaves him odd man out.

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08-15-2006, 08:46 AM
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Fletch
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in about 10 years...

if he's still with the organization, you'd think that all he did for the team, on and off the ice, and as a trusted advisor, that they'd then retire his number.

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08-15-2006, 08:56 AM
  #10
Snap Wilson
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Incidentally, why wasn't Andy Bathgate's number retired with the team? I've never heard an explanation for it. And what about Ratelle? Just not considered good enough?

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08-15-2006, 10:08 AM
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Until Bathgate has nis number retired, Graves (though I would love for his # to be raised, as a great Ranger) cannot be.

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08-15-2006, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
No, I don't think his number should be retired. After #2 it should be a while before any other number receives consideration.
Yep. That's the long and the short of it. Graves was a very good player and is a great person, but I just don't think he did enough on the ice to warrant retiring his number.

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08-15-2006, 11:32 AM
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Fletch
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Singin'...

could one take into consideration off-ice contributions, combined with on-ice contributions, combined with after retirement contributions, i.e., coaching, special advisor, PR, etc., within the organization? It's something that's often good enough for the Hall of Fame, so perhaps it should warrant consideration.

I'm not one for going around hanging numbers all over the rafters, but perhaps there could be some other considerations. I dunno...

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08-15-2006, 11:56 AM
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It would be nice to see, but i dont think it will happen

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08-15-2006, 11:57 AM
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dedalus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
could one take into consideration off-ice contributions, combined with on-ice contributions, combined with after retirement contributions, i.e., coaching, special advisor, PR, etc., within the organization?
This is why you allow time before putting a name in the rafters or Hall - unless it's a no-brainer like Leetch. We all love Graves but that's part of the problem. We're still too "close" to his contributions to have good perspective on what he means in the history of the Ranger organization. Leetch's historical place is established; let's put some time between our emotions and our rational judgment of Graves's place.

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08-15-2006, 12:52 PM
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I agree dedalus...

I threw out an arbitrary number...10 years after retirement, and assuming he's still within in the organization. Between everything he's done for the organization, over a 20+ year span, as a player, ambassador to the organization and game, as well as whatever else he may contribute (perhaps coaching is in the cards someday), then perhaps serious consideration may be considered. His numbers alone, combined with his efforts on the ice, likely do not get him there; it gets him pretty close (300 goals as a Ranger, some steady 30+ goal seasons, an enforcer/protector, a guy who helped bring along some kids, etc.), but perhaps no cigar. If this was the late 80s or early 90s, I'd say why isn't #4 hanging, or maybe even #26, as those were a couple of my favorite players in the 70s and 80s, and they were long time Rangers. The test of time would hold true, except for, as you mentioned, the no-brainers. Although it's odd that the 1994 team really is still near to many hearts, guys like Larmer, Lowe, Matteau and others are still remembered and a standout like Graves may stand the test of time, unlike some guys from the 70s and 80s.

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08-15-2006, 01:11 PM
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I think the problem becomes where do you draw the line with outside of playing?

Graves to me is in a similar boat to John Davidson. He is identified with the organization and he is beloved by the fans but from an actual playing standpoint he wasn't quite on the level to have his number retired which is what that particular ceremony is about. Now if they want to start a Rangers alumni HOF I think he'd make a good case, but the number retirement aspects should probably be limited to actual on-ice accomplishments or else you open a very big bag of worms.

From a playing perspective if we hang Graves jersey than what of Ratelle? Bathgate? Greschner? Beezer played for a decade here, was beloved and won 200 games on some really mediocre teams. What becomes of Hadfield whose career was similar to Graves?

I just think Graves probably isn't quite there and he was one of my all-time favorite NHL players.

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08-15-2006, 01:41 PM
  #18
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I think he was a great player on and off the ice, he did alot for the community and embodied what a Ranger should be. Unfourtunatly once the allowed Bure to wear his number, thats when I decided the likleyhood of them retiring the number was slim to none. Leetchs number should go up first undoubtedly and probably will. Graves is one of those players who deserves his number in the rafters allong with the other greats from the 70's and early 80s but never will for whatever reason. If it was up to the fans there would only be 15 numbers to choose from for new players , because over the years there have been so many great ranger teams and players for the fans to root for.

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08-15-2006, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by KingHenrik35 View Post
I think he was a great player on and off the ice, he did alot for the community and embodied what a Ranger should be. Unfourtunatly once the allowed Bure to wear his number, thats when I decided the likleyhood of them retiring the number was slim to none. Leetchs number should go up first undoubtedly and probably will. Graves is one of those players who deserves his number in the rafters allong with the other greats from the 70's and early 80s but never will for whatever reason. If it was up to the fans there would only be 15 numbers to choose from for new players , because over the years there have been so many great ranger teams and players for the fans to root for.
I think the Rangers history is filled with a lot of beloved players but not really that elite level that some other teams have. All things considered our single season and all-time record holders are on the lower side, especially for a team as old as ours.

You have guys like Graves, Davidson, etc. who are beloved and are part of the fabrid of Ranger history but when all is said and done weren't TOP players for very long.

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08-15-2006, 02:33 PM
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I agree.

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08-15-2006, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I think the Rangers history is filled with a lot of beloved players but not really that elite level that some other teams have.
That's the key. Is "beloved" the criteria to merit retiring a number? It's certainly a valid enough reason, but if you adopt it, you'd best be prepared to retire a handful of numbers that are currently not in the rafters.

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08-15-2006, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
That's the key. Is "beloved" the criteria to merit retiring a number? It's certainly a valid enough reason, but if you adopt it, you'd best be prepared to retire a handful of numbers that are currently not in the rafters.
And that's where it becomes tricky. What you said right there is why I'd personally say no (though if the Rangers decided to do it I wouldn't be upset).

For those reasons, I think you kind of have to draw the line at what was done on the ice with outside maybe putting a few guys over the top.

But thing in Graves, on the ice, for a variety of reasons really only had one GREAT season and realistically only about two other above average ones.

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08-15-2006, 05:42 PM
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What criteria are used...

is always the interesting question, which is something we debated in regards to the Hall of Fame - most recently regarding Cam Neely.

Graves is beloved. And yes, you can't raise a jersey to the rafters of every beloved Ranger. And personally, I'm not saying his jersey should. I do pose the questions of whether or not off-ice activities, including coaching for the team, should be considered when hanging one's jersey. And further, perhaps we should define what it means to have a jersey hung. To me, it's the organization thanking a player for his contribution to the organization - as well, it's something for the fans. dedalus brought out a great point in regards to the test of time. Graves is a bit different than our favorites of the 70s and 80s, sans Davidson. Because of the Cup, and perhaps even because of the 1990s and 2000s media, he's more recognizable than many of those guys. In 5-10 years, fans will still come out to see his shirt raised, partially because of his 1993-1994 contributions, and partially because of everything else. I'm not saying put Graves in - but he's not just your ordinary Ranger who played 10 seasons and scored 300 goals.

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08-15-2006, 06:00 PM
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Maybe if he goes into long term coaching we might be able to do that, but I don't think he's there now. Coming in for a few weeks or from time to time as a special instructor probably just isn't enough.

I think the charitable contributions are wonderful and he's def. a special person, but at the end of the day what hurts is how few "peak" seasons he really had. With the exception of one season (94), the guy just was not really a star. Within his 10 year run with the team, there were still only 3 big seasons. Unfortunatly 3 seasons really isn't enough to make it that close. Now if he was had 6 or 7 season really standout seasons (think Shanahan in Detroit) and won several cups, you can get away with that but I think there are too many factors working against him including the fact that one does have to wonder where his career would've been without riding shotgun to Messier.

I think the fact that he was such a nice guy really makes the debate closer than it is based on what he really accomplished on the ice.

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Old
08-15-2006, 06:28 PM
  #25
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I know numbers are usually retired for on-ice achievements,and Adam sure had a great season in 94 becoming the Rangers' single season scoring leader at the time,but given all that Adam has done for the community,and the city,with all his humanitarian efforts and charity work,I'd love to see it,if only for sentimental reasons.

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