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Old
08-15-2006, 11:49 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
We are discussing, it's ok... It's nice to have a list up-to-date, but we must also have the better list it shows our best prospects. It's not a simple list of the best players at this moment but a list of best potential players... Maxwell and White should be higher, it's just a fact, not an opinion...
It is absolutely an opinion and not a fact. Potential is a very fluid and partisan thing. Just because you feel that Maxwell and White are currently better players and/or have more potential, that does not mean this statment is true (or false for that matter). When dealing with future posibilities, how can anyone know anything for sure... maybe Francis Lemieux will develop better than Andrei Kostitsyn over the next 2-3 years... is it likely, no, but its possible.

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08-15-2006, 11:53 AM
  #52
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Is it that Lats improved a lot or taht AK dropped? Still not understand White not in list and Maxwell 6.0C but thanks a lot to have taken of you your time. I'm looking forward for the new rankings.

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08-15-2006, 11:53 AM
  #53
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O'Byrne and Emelin should be higher

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Originally Posted by Jason Menard View Post
One thing you missed about Danis:

2. An NCAA player who signs his first contract at or above the age of 22 has three years to meet the above criteria (65/45), while those NCAA players that turn pro under the age of 22 will be subjected to the criteria above.

He was signed in 2004 out of Brown University, so he's still eligible for one more year.

Jay
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Originally Posted by Jason Menard View Post
I actually didn't write that. That predates me. I'll be tackling the new rankings one of these days...

So, no I'm not contradicting myself. I'm contradicting the guy that came before me. Secondly, rating and rankings can change. I would say that was a fair assessment last year, but Latendresse has developed far more than anyone anticipated. Before I was thinking Shayne Corson, now I'm thinking Brendan Shanahan... Kostitsyn is about the same as before.

Therefore, even if I had created those numbers, it wouldn't be a contradiction to revisit them in light of new information. In fact, to adhere to old numbers simply because they're there would be irresponsible.

My rankings are based on the present-day... When I get a chance I'll update the ratings.

Thanks,

Jay

I'm surprised that O'byrne, Emelin since Montreal needs defense more than anything else.

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08-15-2006, 11:56 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
It is absolutely an opinion and not a fact. Potential is a very fluid and partisan thing. Just because you feel that Maxwell and White are currently better players and/or have more potential, that does not mean this statment is true (or false for that matter). When dealing with future posibilities, how can anyone know anything for sure... maybe Francis Lemieux will develop better than Andrei Kostitsyn over the next 2-3 years... is it likely, no, but its possible.
All experts putted Maxwell in the top 30 last year... A first round pick must have a great potential and be an a top of the list... No doubt about it...

You can use opinion with guys like Aubin and D'Agostini, but with Maxwell, it's just a higher player, at this moment... I don't understand why you don't want understand this...

It's not just an opinion affair... There is some realities...

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08-15-2006, 12:02 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Menard View Post
I actually didn't write that. That predates me. I'll be tackling the new rankings one of these days...

So, no I'm not contradicting myself. I'm contradicting the guy that came before me. Secondly, rating and rankings can change. I would say that was a fair assessment last year, but Latendresse has developed far more than anyone anticipated. Before I was thinking Shayne Corson, now I'm thinking Brendan Shanahan... Kostitsyn is about the same as before.

Therefore, even if I had created those numbers, it wouldn't be a contradiction to revisit them in light of new information. In fact, to adhere to old numbers simply because they're there would be irresponsible.

My rankings are based on the present-day... When I get a chance I'll update the ratings.

Thanks,

Jay
But you still only gave 6C to Maxwell, an offensive foward who was a potenital first rounder back in June and 7C to Fischer, one of the most skilled player of the last draft...

And thanks for explaining us a couple of things...we don,t know you that much so it's cool.

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08-15-2006, 12:55 PM
  #56
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I'll elaborate on my last post.

Murray doesn't belong in the "Notables section". Either graduate him or put him in the 10-20 range because he's a guaranteed NHL'er with 4th line spot and pk time waiting for him this October. He also has the ability to fill in sporadically on the 3rd line.

Then we have a guy like Ferland who could hold down a 12th-13th forward spot on most NHL teams, and while he might not have more potential than that... he at least made it this far.

Some could make a case for White but I haven't seen him play more than a few times so we'll leave him as a "notable" or as a default "#20-21".

As for the top-20 list itself...

Sergei Kostitsyn: Too high. Needs a repeat of last season to break our top-10.

Maxim Lapierre: Too low. This kid got a few NHL games in last season... remember? Should be in the #8-12 range.

Aubin: Too high. Give both he and D'Ago a few months in the AHL before ranking either higher than 16th-17th.

Mikus: Too high. Let's give him a year in North-America before putting him in the top-15.

My rankings:

1. Kostitsyn
2. Price
3. Latendresse

4. Chipchura
5. Fischer

6. Danis
7. Grabovsky
8. Lapierre
9. O'Byrne
10. Emelin
11. Kostitsyn
12. Murray
13. Halak
14. Maxwell
15. Carle
16. Mikus
17. Aubin/D'Agostini
18. D'Agostini/Aubin
19. C-H-L
20. Korpirkari

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Old
08-15-2006, 12:55 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Menard View Post
I actually didn't write that. That predates me. I'll be tackling the new rankings one of these days...

So, no I'm not contradicting myself. I'm contradicting the guy that came before me. Secondly, rating and rankings can change. I would say that was a fair assessment last year, but Latendresse has developed far more than anyone anticipated. Before I was thinking Shayne Corson, now I'm thinking Brendan Shanahan... Kostitsyn is about the same as before.

Therefore, even if I had created those numbers, it wouldn't be a contradiction to revisit them in light of new information. In fact, to adhere to old numbers simply because they're there would be irresponsible.

My rankings are based on the present-day... When I get a chance I'll update the ratings.

Thanks,

Jay

At the present day, the best prospect is between Price and Kostitsyn... For you and the French press, maybe Latendresse, but objectively, it's not that...

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08-15-2006, 12:58 PM
  #58
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Mine...

1. Andrei Kostsitsyn, RW
2. Carey Price, G
3. Guillaume Latendresse, RW
4. Kyle Chipchura, C
5. David Fischer, D
6. Mikhail Grabovsky, LW
7. Yann Danis, G
8. Ben Maxwell, C
9. Alexei Emelin, D
10. Jaroslav Halak, G
11. Mathieu Carle, D
12. Ryan White, C
13. Ryan O'Byrne, D
14. Maxim Lapierre, C
15. Sergei Kostsitsyn, LW
16. Matt D'Agostini, RW
17. Juraj Mikus, C
18. Mathieu Aubin, C
19. Pavel Valentenko, D
20. Oskari Korpikari, D

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Old
08-15-2006, 12:59 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by davedave View Post
I'm looking forward to following Hamilton's upcoming season for that reason. With Aubin, D'Agostini, O'Byrne, Chipchura, and Grabovsky, this year seems to be one of the best infusions of recently drafted talent the Habs have had in years. The last really good wave was the quartet of Plekanec, Higgins, Perezhogin and Komisarek, as it seems fair to say that Urqhart, Linhart, Lambert and others from 2002-2003 are misses. On the other hand, Lapierre and Kostitsyn will probably have very big roles in Hamilton this year if they don't play in Montreal.

I've been playing along with the New Top 20 Prospects this off-season, but the truth is that I'm waiting for about mid-season to get a better read on a lot of these prospects. 40 games isn't much to go by, but it's still 40 games at a competitive professional level. It should be enough to give us a sense of whether a guy like D'Agostini, for instance, has the kind of game that some feel will translate fairly well at a pro level. (Sidebar: I think some posters rank him highly precisely for that reason, despite not having the super stats or skills of some other prospects.)

Obviously, 40 games won't make a or break a prospect. Perezhogin and Kostitsyn's first 40 games were disappointing. But then again, Plekanec, Komisarek and Higgins showed that they were going to be players. In a way, it doesn't really matter who gets the 23rd roster spot, because the big prospect development story should be in Hamilton this year. If it follows the pattern from the 2001-2002 draft classes, next year (2007-2008) could be as good or better as the Higgins et al wave. Now that's something to look forward to, especially if Emelin somehow finds his way over.

I don't know if Hamilton will carry all those rookies though. I've heard some talk that the Oilers still may send 2 or so players to Hamilton, which could force a guy like Aubin or D'Ago to the ECHL or back to the CHL. But until the Hamilton camp is over, we'll have to wait and see what happens. The trio of Chipchura, Grabovsky and O'Byrne alone is going to be worth keeping a close eye on Hamilton, plus hopefully at least one of D'Agostini and Aubin are on the team as well. I have become a big D'Agostini fan especially after watching him and Siarhei Kostitsyn in the playoffs, the main concern I have is his lack of strength but other then strength and size, what's not to like, really solid prospect imo, like the way he plays. Aubin could also be a big surprise, good hands and vision I want to see what he can do at the next level.

Next summer we will be in the same boat, looking at one heck of an incoming class to Hamilton. Price, Latendresse, Kostitsyn, Mikus and Carle plus hopefully Emelin, on top of that Korpikari and Heino have to be signed or we lose their rights. Wow talk about some exciting players in hamilton!



Quote:
Maxwell and White should be higher, it's just a fact, not an opinion
No, it's ALL OPINION. It's really not hard to understand, different people will look at different factors. Like White's lack of skating, Maxwell's inconsistent and at times soft play. See there are many factors to consider but you have to look at everything and everyone will come up with their own way of rating prospects based on how they value different things, which all adds up to one persons opinion, nothing more.



Quote:
I actually didn't write that. That predates me. I'll be tackling the new rankings one of these days...

So, no I'm not contradicting myself. I'm contradicting the guy that came before me. Secondly, rating and rankings can change. I would say that was a fair assessment last year, but Latendresse has developed far more than anyone anticipated.
Well that would be me that did those rankings, although I clearly got carried away with Kostitsyn, I would have lowered the rating by now to someting like an 8C. I'm personally still a huge fan of his game but he played like crap early last year and then really showed improvement after his call ups. As for Latendresse I think many actually expected a lot more out of him, mostly due to the great camp he had, but if you talk with Denis from ISS, they had him ranked 3rd overall after the '04 draft in their '04 draft guide, so they had high hopes for him after his impressive rookie year. Too bad he had the shoulder injury but that likely had at least a part in him dropping to the 2nd round imo. The inconsistent play (due to in part to the shoulder injury) and of course the skating issues had to make GM's uneasy. Since our doctors were the ones that did the work on his shoulder, they knew what to expect in terms of his shoulder.

I think you do a great job writing for HF, your a very good writer imo and I enjoy reading such well written articles. Just a side note, but when HF can get around to it, there are a couple profiles that need to be deleted from the Habs page. Olivier Michaud, Tomas Linhart, Johan Eneqvist are no longer with the organization.

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Old
08-15-2006, 01:03 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
All experts putted Maxwell in the top 30 last year... A first round pick must have a great potential and be an a top of the list... No doubt about it...

You can use opinion with guys like Aubin and D'Agostini, but with Maxwell, it's just a higher player, at this moment... I don't understand why you don't want understand this...

It's not just an opinion affair... There is some realities...
Even the best experts can be wrong. Many 'experts' had Chouinard in the same ball park as Gagne... did that pan out? Many 'experts' didn't think enough of Andrei Markov to have him go in the first few rounds of his year... were they correct?

If prospects were just ranked according to where they were drafted, these rankings would be pretty stale. I also think there is a trend on these boards to overrate more recently drafted prospects, if only because they have had less of an opportunity to dissapoint.

Everyone is entitiled to their opinion and you could very well be right, but the writer of this article doesn't deserve the kind of backlash he is getting for presenting us ONE informed opinion on the matter. With this kind of reception, he might not want to take the time out of his life to offer us somehthing like this in the future....

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08-15-2006, 01:09 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Freaky Habs Fan View Post
But you still only gave 6C to Maxwell, an offensive foward who was a potenital first rounder back in June and 7C to Fischer, one of the most skilled player of the last draft...

And thanks for explaining us a couple of things...we don,t know you that much so it's cool.
You know what? I didn't do those rankings either. I'm not sure where they came from. As I said, I've yet to change the rankings. I'm in the process of finding out how I change them with my editor so that they can be consistent.

I think the person who updated the site to include the recent draftees also did those rankings. But I'll make sure to get on it so that it's all consistent.

Jay

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08-15-2006, 01:13 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Menard View Post
You know what? I didn't do those rankings either. I'm not sure where they came from. As I said, I've yet to change the rankings. I'm in the process of finding out how I change them with my editor so that they can be consistent.

I think the person who updated the site to include the recent draftees also did those rankings. But I'll make sure to get on it so that it's all consistent.

Jay
Oh, alright then! Just make a better job than the one who gave those ratings and it will be just fine

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08-15-2006, 01:15 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
Even the best experts can be wrong. Many 'experts' had Chouinard in the same ball park as Gagne... did that pan out? Many 'experts' didn't think enough of Andrei Markov to have him go in the first few rounds of his year... were they correct?

If prospects were just ranked according to where they were drafted, these rankings would be pretty stale. I also think there is a trend on these boards to overrate more recently drafted prospects, if only because they have had less of an opportunity to dissapoint.

Everyone is entitiled to their opinion and you could very well be right, but the writer of this article doesn't deserve the kind of backlash he is getting for presenting us ONE informed opinion on the matter. With this kind of reception, he might not want to take the time out of his life to offer us somehthing like this in the future....
Why do a list only based on opinion, and not considering the expert??? Chouinard was a very good propsect, but he was ONLY a prospect... The list should be the market value of our prospects, because it's the real thing...

Maxwell has a better value than Heino-Lindberg, it's a simple fact... I'm so sorry for you...

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08-15-2006, 01:16 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
All experts putted Maxwell in the top 30 last year... A first round pick must have a great potential and be an a top of the list... No doubt about it...

You can use opinion with guys like Aubin and D'Agostini, but with Maxwell, it's just a higher player, at this moment... I don't understand why you don't want understand this...

It's not just an opinion affair... There is some realities...
See, this is how misinformation gets spread. That simply isn't true. Central Scouting had him 44th on their list, ISS had him 52nd. I know Forecaster and RLR had him in the top 30, but he was hardly a consensus first round pick.

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08-15-2006, 01:17 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
Even the best experts can be wrong. Many 'experts' had Chouinard in the same ball park as Gagne... did that pan out? Many 'experts' didn't think enough of Andrei Markov to have him go in the first few rounds of his year... were they correct?

If prospects were just ranked according to where they were drafted, these rankings would be pretty stale. I also think there is a trend on these boards to overrate more recently drafted prospects, if only because they have had less of an opportunity to dissapoint.

Everyone is entitiled to their opinion and you could very well be right, but the writer of this article doesn't deserve the kind of backlash he is getting for presenting us ONE informed opinion on the matter. With this kind of reception, he might not want to take the time out of his life to offer us somehthing like this in the future....

Hey, thanks for the kind words, but don't worry. I've got thick skin. I've been called worse by better and better by worse. It's part of the game. I'm also an opinion columnist and if you can't deal with people that despise you for a rationed opinion, even if there's has no merit, then you won't last long.

You see, that's the best part of these rankings -- nobody knows what will happen. Personally I think Latendresse has the POTENTIAL to be huge. Will it happen? Who knows? Injuries, passion, pressure -- it could all conspire against him.

In the end, take the ratings and debate them as you please. There are people in love with Kostitsyn and I don't see why he's been deified. Same with Price. But what I've seen and heard from camps say that Latendresse is head and shoulders above the others right now.

We all overvalue potential and undervalue performance. In the end, we can look back and say, "Wow, he was right." or "Hey, did he write that with his head stuck up his rectum?" It's all good!

As long as you keep reading, that's the important part. And feel free to send me any comments you have as I usually don't check the boards all that often. I just wanted to honour the requests that were made for my comments today...

Jay

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08-15-2006, 01:19 PM
  #66
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My main concern is with White being left out.

Other than that, well, it's all really debatable.

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08-15-2006, 01:25 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
Why do a list only based on opinion, and not considering the expert??? Chouinard was a very good propsect, but he was ONLY a prospect... The list should be the market value of our prospects, because it's the real thing...

Maxwell has a better value than Heino-Lindberg, it's a simple fact... I'm so sorry for you...
Because it's all based on opinion. What makes so called experts opinions so great? My example is take Maxwell and go back to the '01 draft. Duncan Milroy was considered by the "experts" to be a 1st round pick. He was picked early in the 2nd round, went on to have an impressive WHL career, racked up 92 pts as a 17 year old. Doesn't mean someone can't have a different opinion of hiim, just like someone might like Carle or White more then Maxwell even though they were drafted later.

Who cares where a player is drafted, what the round or overall number is. It's what they bring to the team. Over time where a player is drafted means little (aside from contracts) So that's why it's called opinion and not fact.

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08-15-2006, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
I think you do a great job writing for HF, your a very good writer imo and I enjoy reading such well written articles. Just a side note, but when HF can get around to it, there are a couple profiles that need to be deleted from the Habs page. Olivier Michaud, Tomas Linhart, Johan Eneqvist are no longer with the organization.
While we're on the subject of maintenance style updates, I'll add that the team depth chart doesn't do a good job of matching player positions, and needs updating for where the prospects are playing this year (for those that are known), and the link to the ECHL affiliate hasn't been updated yet.


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08-15-2006, 01:27 PM
  #69
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Hey, thanks for the kind words, but don't worry. I've got thick skin. I've been called worse by better and better by worse. It's part of the game. I'm also an opinion columnist and if you can't deal with people that despise you for a rationed opinion, even if there's has no merit, then you won't last long.

You see, that's the best part of these rankings -- nobody knows what will happen. Personally I think Latendresse has the POTENTIAL to be huge. Will it happen? Who knows? Injuries, passion, pressure -- it could all conspire against him.

In the end, take the ratings and debate them as you please. There are people in love with Kostitsyn and I don't see why he's been deified. Same with Price. But what I've seen and heard from camps say that Latendresse is head and shoulders above the others right now.

We all overvalue potential and undervalue performance. In the end, we can look back and say, "Wow, he was right." or "Hey, did he write that with his head stuck up his rectum?" It's all good!

As long as you keep reading, that's the important part. And feel free to send me any comments you have as I usually don't check the boards all that often. I just wanted to honour the requests that were made for my comments today...

Jay
You really think Montreal management don't believe Fisher will be better than Danis and Grabovsky? Maxwell not better than Sergei Kostsitsyn... And White not better than Lemieux??? Carle not better than Aubin???

Why Carle is higher than Maxwell??? Maxwell was picked before???

This list should not be a simple opinion man...


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08-15-2006, 01:33 PM
  #70
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Because it's all based on opinion. What makes so called experts opinions so great? My example is take Maxwell and go back to the '01 draft. Duncan Milroy was considered by the "experts" to be a 1st round pick. He was picked early in the 2nd round, went on to have an impressive WHL career, racked up 92 pts as a 17 year old. Doesn't mean someone can't have a different opinion of hiim, just like someone might like Carle or White more then Maxwell even though they were drafted later.

Who cares where a player is drafted, what the round or overall number is. It's what they bring to the team. Over time where a player is drafted means little (aside from contracts) So that's why it's called opinion and not fact.
An opinion isn't just an opinion... It must be based on facts...

In 2001, Milroy was a very good prospect, but he was a PROSPECT, it's the word... He was a better prospect than Plekanec, but now it's not the same thing...

It's why the list changed each 6 months, no?

It's just a really long shot to say than Grabovsky and Danis are higher than Fisher right now... A really really long shot...

And a really really really long shot with Lemieux higher than White... What a long shot!

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08-15-2006, 01:38 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
You really think Montreal management not believe Fisher will be better than Danis and Grabovsky? Maxwell not better than Sergei Kostsitsyn... And White not better than Lemieux??? Carle not better than Aubin???

Why Carle is higher than Maxwell??? Maxwell was picked before???

This list should not be a simple opinion man...
Why would they think Fischer is going to be better then Danis or Grabovsky, I'm sure they hope so but they can't know. Grabovsky could easily end up being the best prospect in our system, not saying that will happen but he's highly skilled. I really don't think Timmins and Gainey sit around discussing what guy will be better then others.

Personally speaking on Maxwell and Kostitsyn, I saw a lot more of Kostitsyn but for me I'd rank Kostitsyn higher because he has no fear of playing in high traffic areas, drives to the net hard with the puck, whereas Maxwell in the games I've seen plays more to the outside. But again it's all just opinion.

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08-15-2006, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason Menard View Post
I actually didn't write that. That predates me. I'll be tackling the new rankings one of these days...

So, no I'm not contradicting myself. I'm contradicting the guy that came before me. Secondly, rating and rankings can change. I would say that was a fair assessment last year, but Latendresse has developed far more than anyone anticipated. Before I was thinking Shayne Corson, now I'm thinking Brendan Shanahan... Kostitsyn is about the same as before.

Therefore, even if I had created those numbers, it wouldn't be a contradiction to revisit them in light of new information. In fact, to adhere to old numbers simply because they're there would be irresponsible.

My rankings are based on the present-day... When I get a chance I'll update the ratings.

Thanks,

Jay

Thanks for replying, I was under the impression that those rankings were up to date since the new crop of prospects had been added. Looking forward to seeing your updated rankings.

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08-15-2006, 01:44 PM
  #73
Le depisteur
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Why would they think Fischer is going to be better then Danis or Grabovsky, I'm sure they hope so but they can't know. Grabovsky could easily end up being the best prospect in our system, not saying that will happen but he's highly skilled. I really don't think Timmins and Gainey sit around discussing what guy will be better then others.

Personally speaking on Maxwell and Kostitsyn, I saw a lot more of Kostitsyn but for me I'd rank Kostitsyn higher because he has no fear of playing in high traffic areas, drives to the net hard with the puck, whereas Maxwell in the games I've seen plays more to the outside. But again it's all just opinion.
When you watched Maxwell, he was 17...
When you watched S.Kostitsyn, he was 18-19 and played with Shremp...

Just my opinion too...

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08-15-2006, 01:45 PM
  #74
montreal
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
An opinion isn't just an opinion... It must be based on facts...

In 2001, Milroy was a very good prospect, but he was a PROSPECT, it's the word... He was a better prospect than Plekanec, but now it's not the same thing...

It's why the list changed each 6 months, no?

It's just a really long shot to say than Grabovsky and Danis are higher than Fisher right now... A really really long shot...

And a really really really long shot with Lemieux higher than White... What a long shot!
Opinions are formed from facts of course but who you interpert them is called opinion. Different people value different things like upside, potential, weaknesses, level of competition, etc...

My point with Milroy is that even though he was projected to be a 1st round and SOME felt he was a good prospect, others had OPINIONS that he wasn't all that great. So some would have aggreed that Milroy was a good prospect while others form their OWN OPINION based off what they see.

As for Grabovsky and Danis being long shots, well Danis has already played in the NHL and Grabovsky was an All Star in the RSL and one of the top scorers in the World Championships, while Fischer played against kids 14-18 years old. No one can say for sure what Fischer will do since he hasn't faced a high level of competition yet. So some might rank him lower and wait and see what he does in the NCAA against a much higher level of competition. What's the problem with that?

Lemieux is a great skater with speed and he had a very solid rookie year in the AHL, some might want to see if White can improve his skating first before ranking him higher. Personally I am a big fan of White's game.

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08-15-2006, 01:45 PM
  #75
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Why Carle is higher than Maxwell??? Maxwell was picked before???
I'll tackle that quesiton. Well, first let me say that I obviously don't know anything, I'm just going to explain why the habs might have picked Maxwell before Carle even if they like Carle better. Maxwell was more highly rated than Carle was. If the habs were hoping to pick up both, like they eventually did, they would take the one they though more likely to be picked before they pick again first, regardless of which they like better.

I've heard reports that some of the habs brass thought Valentenko was a better prospect than most of the guys picked before him, and wanted to take him in the 2nd or 3rd rounds, but Gainey waited until later because he knew Valentenko would still be around in the later rounds.

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