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Crosby's unfortunately small trophy case and his legacy

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Old
04-01-2013, 12:43 AM
  #51
SidsBackhand
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If Crosby misses the rest of the season and Stamkos wins the scoring title, will people remember Stevie Stammers as the greater player this year? Or, for that matter, EVER? It's not even close, Crosby is the best of his generation. If trophies mattered so much, why isn't Malkin considered "the best player in the world"? He has a much more "illustrious" career so far, as far as trophies are concerned. Come on. Unless you have a burning hate for Sid, you can't deny that he's going to be remembered as one of the greats.




This generation's version of Wayne Gretzky will not be measured by trophies. Media alone will keep his legacy true. They have seen the domination, skill, and leadership that gets displayed on a nightly basis. And so have knowledgeable hockey fans. Trophies DO NOT MATTER with a player as dominant as Crosby.


Top 10 all time? That's it? Realistically, when it's all said and done, top 5 AT LEAST. In my opinion, top 3.


As for the Lindros comparisons, that is only akin to Crosby when it comes to injuries. Not the skill. Not close at all. Crosby isn't just a big deal for no reason. He's the next legend. In fact, he already is one..

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04-01-2013, 12:45 AM
  #52
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People need to take a step back for a moment.

He's 25 years old. He's not some broken down power forward in his 30's who's in the twilight of his career. There is so much time left in the kid's career that I'm shocked that his legacy is even an issue to be discussed so soon.

Technically, he's not even in his prime yet. That's still about 2 years away, and this determined, hyper competitive human being is actually going to improve upon what we see now.

Yes, it took forever to come back from the concussion because of a misdiagnosis, and I think that because of the roller coaster ride it took to come back, we're tricking ourselves into believing that he's some train wreck that's going to keep getting hurt and never have a full season.

The fact is, he's been in the league for 7 years, and has had ONE major injury. It happens. Based on his play, he's long, LONG put that behind him and I doubt that it ever becomes an issue again.

Yesterday afternoon was just a freak thing that happens in hockey. At worse he'll be back in time for the playoffs. Nothing that happened to him yesterday will affect how he plays coming back. This wasn't a knee or back injury that could affect how he plays going forward and somehow hamper him for the rest of his career. He lost a few teeth, had to get himself fixed, and he'll be back before we know it.

Like I said, he's 25. Christ Geno's all of a year older, and NEITHER of them are even in their primes yet. We've got so many more years of hockey goodness for those two guys left that it's almost unfair to every fan of every other team. By the time they're both done, they'll have trophy case models named after them.

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04-01-2013, 12:56 AM
  #53
Waffle Fries
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I 100% agree with everyone saying that it won't affect his legacy and his best years are still ahead.

But it's just really, really unfortunate that someone can be so dominate without getting recognition in the books. Over these last three years, he's been the best player by a landslide and has nothing to show for it.

With that said if he comes back even for 3 games before the end of the regular season, I can see them giving him the Hart. You'd have to think he'd get bonus points for playing through a broken jaw

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Old
04-01-2013, 01:53 AM
  #54
Jaded-Fan
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Well in case you forgot, Rossi did suggest in 2009 we trade Crosby:

On Sunday night, Rob Rossi, Penguins beat writer for the Tribune-Review, appeared on a weekly Pittsburgh talk show and suggested the team would be wise to put Sidney Crosby on the trade block this offseason. I guess this is what happens when you go from being two wins away from hoisting the Stanley Cup to being the No. 10 team in the Eastern Conference in a matter of one season.

To be fair, Rossi didn't come out and say the Penguins were in a position where they would be forced to trade Crosby, but that it would be wise to put him on the market and make it known they were listening to offers. That's slightly different from Miller's this must happen or the team will never win again angle.

That doesn't make it better.

To support his stance, Rossi drew a comparison to the June 30, 1992 trade that sent Eric Lindros (whom was "the next one" before Crosby was "the next one") from the Quebec Nordiques to the Philadelphia Flyers


http://www.aolnews.com/2009/02/24/pe...sidney-crosby/

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Old
04-01-2013, 05:19 AM
  #55
Ogrezilla
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I don't care about individual awards. They are neat, but really they don't matter. The players stats would be exactly the same with or without them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques G View Post
You don't need YouTube when there are thousands of threads about the guy on every hockey forum in the world.
exactly. People my age have to use trophy's and stat lines to discuss guys from before our time because there is nothing else to look at. Now, every time a trophy is handed out the majority of fans end up disagreeing with it anyway. Trophies are going to become more and more meaningless as information about players is more and more accessible.

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04-01-2013, 05:25 AM
  #56
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It is a shame he got hurt this year and a couple years ago when he got the concussion. He was on pace to obliterate his competition in the scoring race both of those years. It would have been amazing to watch that in it's entirety but it got cut short both times.

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04-01-2013, 06:28 AM
  #57
DoktorZaius
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Hardware doesn't mean much when your ppg average is far and away the best for your era.

It's true though, that, for example, Lemieux is considered by many/most to be a tier below Gretzky. Were it not for his many and varied maladies, I don't think this would be the case.

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04-01-2013, 07:14 AM
  #58
Ogrezilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoktorZaius View Post
Hardware doesn't mean much when your ppg average is far and away the best for your era.

It's true though, that, for example, Lemieux is considered by many/most to be a tier below Gretzky. Were it not for his many and varied maladies, I don't think this would be the case.
does that matter?

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04-01-2013, 07:24 AM
  #59
Jacob
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2011 - 2013 will be known as "The Troubles" in Crosby's legacy.

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Old
04-01-2013, 08:25 AM
  #60
Ugene Malkin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoktorZaius View Post
Hardware doesn't mean much when your ppg average is far and away the best for your era.

It's true though, that, for example, Lemieux is considered by many/most to be a tier below Gretzky. Were it not for his many and varied maladies, I don't think this would be the case.
What will be skewd for Mario is the fact he came back and his PPG average dropped from over 2.0 PPG to 1.88 dropping 12 percentage points. It really hurts he lost 3 of his better years due to retirement. Not only that but keeping his goal totals just below the 700 mark at 690. I'm pretty sure he plays those three years he'd easily be over 100 points somewhere around todays norm for the top player with 30/40 goals putting him near the or above the 800 range. from 2000 to 2006 he put up 97 in his broken down years though he scored 91 points in 2002/03.

For Crosby, had he not had those injuries, he's be the first players since Mario/Gretzky era to post 100 point+ seasons for a decade or more going back to Jr.s. The point is, people will not know this stuff later on on how dominant he was in those years when he was injured from never seeing him play.

Now what makes me mad is Both Malkin and Ovechkin bow out or slack off when Sid is playing and not pushing him to even better heights. Every top player needs his nemisis. Crosby's natrual drive already pushes him beyond them, but he is not tested very much when he is healthy. Nobody pushes him to the next level. Yes, I think he has the 150 point range potential if challanged.

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Old
04-01-2013, 08:34 AM
  #61
JackFr
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Well let's see what he's got:

1 Hart (2007)
1 Art Ross (2007)
1 Maurice Richard (2010)
1 Pearson/Lindsay (2007)

1 WJHC (2005)
1 Stanley Cup (2009)
1 Olympic Gold Medal (2010)

What he presumably would have had barring injuries:

3 Harts (2008, 2011, 2013*)
3 Art Rosses (2008, 2011, 2013*)
1 Maurice Richard (2011)
3 Lindsays (2008, 2011, 2013*)

Given his production, you could argue that a third Hart and Art Ross could have come in 2012, but he didn't play enough to tell.

If we use PPG and prorate it (which I understand is inaccurate, but just for the sake of argument) you get:

2005-06 - 103 pts
2006-07 - 125 pts
2007-08 - 111 pts
2008-09 - 109 pts
2009-10 - 111 pts
2010-11 - 132 pts
2011-12 - 137 pts*
2012-13 - 127 pts

Or 955 points in 656 games

Adjusted that gives us:

2005-06 - 100 pts
2006-07 - 125 pts
2007-08 - 120 pts
2008-09 - 112 pts
2009-10 - 118 pts
2010-11 - 142 pts
2011-12 - 152 pts*
2012-13 - (no info, but probably around 140)

Adjusted, that's 1009 points in 656 games


Last edited by JackFr: 04-01-2013 at 08:52 AM.
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Old
04-01-2013, 08:44 AM
  #62
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Ofcourse it will affect his legacy to a degree, especially as the years go by and new fans come on board. Anyone claiming it won't is in plain denial.

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04-01-2013, 08:49 AM
  #63
Ugene Malkin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackFr View Post
Well let's see what he's got:

1 Hart (2007)
1 Art Ross (2007)
1 Maurice Richard (2010)
1 Pearson/Lindsay (2007)

1 WJHC (2005)
1 Stanley Cup (2009)
1 Olympic Gold Medal (2010)

What he presumably would have had barring injuries:

2 Harts (2011, 2013*)
2 Art Rosses (2011, 2013*)
1 Maurice Richard (2011)
2 Lindsays (2011, 2013*)

Given his production, you could argue that a third Hart and Art Ross could have come in 2012, but he didn't play enough to tell.
You're forgeting about 2007/08 where he only played 53 games at which point he had a 10 point lead on the two that would have challenged him at the end of the year. Both Malkin and Ovechkin looked comfotable letting Sid walk away with it, but rejeuvenated when he went down and challanged each other the rest of the way. Ovechkin's only Art Ross.

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Old
04-01-2013, 09:32 AM
  #64
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Leafs fan perspective, he is notoriously the best player of the post lock out generation, Ovi was the only one close and he won by a landslide. He has the gold medal winning goal that will be shown every single olympics for the next hundred years, he won the cup, he won the World Jrs.

His legacy is set its just a matter of how much more he can add to it. If his career ended today he would still be one of the greatest to lace them up. Orr's career was cut tragically short but when people talk about him it isn't about all the trophies he has won its the way he played the game, people remember that the trophies are just for measuring when another great comes along. One cup is enough for someone to be considered great. Especially with the parity the league has forced in the last 20 years.

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04-01-2013, 09:53 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoktorZaius View Post
Hardware doesn't mean much when your ppg average is far and away the best for your era.

It's true though, that, for example, Lemieux is considered by many/most to be a tier below Gretzky. Were it not for his many and varied maladies, I don't think this would be the case.
Well Lemieux's PPG average was higher than Gretzky's before Lemieux made his comeback out of retirement. People still argued that Gretzky was better despite the PPG average. But, it really doesn't matter to these guys. The media and the fans get far more caught up in the ranking of players. Most of the greats just want to win Stanley Cups.

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Old
04-01-2013, 10:23 AM
  #66
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I will accept a Conn Smythe and second Cup in lieu of this year's Art Ross, but after that Sid needs to stop playing around, and game plan for these injuries. He needs to establish significant points leads early for when he's out with injury. No more clowning around when the nets empty Sid.

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04-01-2013, 11:12 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
What will be skewd for Mario is the fact he came back and his PPG average dropped from over 2.0 PPG to 1.88 dropping 12 percentage points. It really hurts he lost 3 of his better years due to retirement. Not only that but keeping his goal totals just below the 700 mark at 690. I'm pretty sure he plays those three years he'd easily be over 100 points somewhere around todays norm for the top player with 30/40 goals putting him near the or above the 800 range. from 2000 to 2006 he put up 97 in his broken down years though he scored 91 points in 2002/03.

For Crosby, had he not had those injuries, he's be the first players since Mario/Gretzky era to post 100 point+ seasons for a decade or more going back to Jr.s. The point is, people will not know this stuff later on on how dominant he was in those years when he was injured from never seeing him play.

Now what makes me mad is Both Malkin and Ovechkin bow out or slack off when Sid is playing and not pushing him to even better heights. Every top player needs his nemisis. Crosby's natrual drive already pushes him beyond them, but he is not tested very much when he is healthy. Nobody pushes him to the next level. Yes, I think he has the 150 point range potential if challanged.
Lemieux retired initially at 32.

Wayne retired at 38. His PPG at 32 was 2.23. Higher than Lemieux.

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Old
04-02-2013, 06:09 PM
  #68
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This thread is really surprising. To say you don't care about individual trophies and points is one thing, but if you seriously think for one second that Crosby's injuries and lack of trophies won't hurt his legacy, you are living in a weird fantasy land. I would expect fans from Lemieux's team to know better.

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04-02-2013, 06:10 PM
  #69
JQR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengui View Post
This thread is really surprising. To say you don't care about individual trophies and points is one thing, but if you seriously think for one second that Crosby's injuries and lack of trophies won't hurt his legacy, you are living in a weird fantasy land.
It won't, because the internet.

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04-02-2013, 06:13 PM
  #70
Shrimper
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His trophy case might look small in comparison to others in terms of personal and individual achievements but he has one that only a select few have and that's the Cup. He would be a shoe in to have the most Art-ross's in history if it weren't for his injuries which is a shame but that's life. I think I'd happily take another cup this year in place of the last year or so.

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04-02-2013, 06:20 PM
  #71
Bengui
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It won't, because the internet.
We'll have to see, since that's new... But one thing we know for sure about the internet, is that it tends to have a pretty short memory

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04-02-2013, 06:20 PM
  #72
Waffle Fries
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He should still win the Hart in my opinion. They just showed this stat on the pregame show:

Highest Percentage of Team Goals Involved With:
Sidney Crosby 46.3%
Steven Stamkos 42.2%
P.A. Parenteau 41.2%
Eric Staal 40.9%
Taylor Hall 40.4%

I think this falls into the category of "most valuable player to their team"

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Old
04-02-2013, 06:27 PM
  #73
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I'm not really trying to bash Ovie or Stammer here, but it really stinks that one trick ponies like them have "taken away" Sid's hardware.

The Bolts have nothing to play for this year except for relentlessly feeding Stamkos the puck to get him the Ross and assure him the Richard. He'll probably have a handful of shorty points too...

Sid is the most complete player in the league, hands down, yet he has less hardware than lesser players because of injuries.

It is a shame, but he doesn't need the awards to know he is the best and we don't need them to see that...

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Old
04-02-2013, 06:28 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
This is why I hate stupid awards. Who cares if Sid has any? He has 1 Stanley Cup and 1 Gold Medal and is looking for another Lord Stanley. The guy is looked at as the best player in the game and it's not even close anymore.

He's the best player in the game and wins championships. Anything else is just for fun.


edit: If he wins 1 more Stanley Cup, his legacy is set and he's umm.. 26 years old?
Canada will be favoured to win Gold in Sochi and Crosby will be the Captain so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
my concern is that crosby will develop a legacy somewhat akin to forsberg-- a dominant player, fondly remembered by those that watched him play, but one whose legacy is hugely diminished by his lack of health and lack of hardware.

i mean, we all here recognize jagr was the dominant player of his generation, and why is that? because of all those art ross trophies.

i can't get behind this idea that trophies are irrelevant. they are hugely important.
This will come across badly but... Canadian fans, writers and overall influence on the game will ensure Crosby is seen as one of the all time greats.
That is something Forsberg lacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesedanish87 View Post
Crosby is a great player and future HOF but he will never be in the same class as Mario.
Not sure I agree. Mario will always be the most talented player I have ever seen but Sid won't be too far behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SidsBackhand View Post
Top 10 all time? That's it? Realistically, when it's all said and done, top 5 AT LEAST. In my opinion, top 3.
That is aiming a little high. Top 10 is realistic. Gretzky, Orr and Mario have the Top 3 locked up.


Last edited by OttawaRoughRiderFan: 04-02-2013 at 06:44 PM.
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Old
04-02-2013, 06:35 PM
  #75
Ogrezilla
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Sid is not top 3 all time. Nothing to do with injuries.

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