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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-31-2013, 09:12 AM
  #626
Sentinel
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Selanne also never got to play with the Red Wings
Fedorov pretty much MADE the Red Wings (not to underestimate the contributions from Y, Shanny, Lids, etc.).

All Star selection is even more of a popularity contest than Hart and Pearson. The fact is: Feds has more individual and team trophies than Selanne. Since the point of hockey is to win, Feds trumps Teemu hands down.

Plus there's this little thing called "face to face contest" (which is an additional way to measure players against each other when it's close). Hasek beats Roy (OG98 and 02), Makarov beats Messier (outplayed him in 87, even though his team lost), Fedorov beats Selanne (97 and OG98).

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03-31-2013, 09:43 AM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Fedorov pretty much MADE the Red Wings (not to underestimate the contributions from Y, Shanny, Lids, etc.).

All Star selection is even more of a popularity contest than Hart and Pearson. The fact is: Feds has more individual and team trophies than Selanne. Since the point of hockey is to win, Feds trumps Teemu hands down.

Plus there's this little thing called "face to face contest" (which is an additional way to measure players against each other when it's close). Hasek beats Roy (OG98 and 02), Makarov beats Messier (outplayed him in 87, even though his team lost), Fedorov beats Selanne (97 and OG98).

Excellent post.
Cheers, Guv'nor

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03-31-2013, 02:28 PM
  #628
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Plus there's this little thing called "face to face contest" (which is an additional way to measure players against each other when it's close). Hasek beats Roy (OG98 and 02), Makarov beats Messier (outplayed him in 87, even though his team lost), Fedorov beats Selanne (97 and OG98).
Now I have heard it all.... So Makarov beats Messier even though his team lost --> So a player can be better if his team loses? So how is it possible that Fedorov was better than Selanne 98 even though Selanne won the OG scoring.

And what exactly happened 97?

Maybe people should just agree to disagree. This has been going for 26 pages... They are what they are, future HHOFs.

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03-31-2013, 03:10 PM
  #629
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Now I have heard it all.... So Makarov beats Messier even though his team lost --> So a player can be better if his team loses? So how is it possible that Fedorov was better than Selanne 98 even though Selanne won the OG scoring.

And what exactly happened 97?

Maybe people should just agree to disagree. This has been going for 26 pages... They are what they are, future HHOFs.


In 1987, the Makarov's team lost to team Koharski

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03-31-2013, 03:29 PM
  #630
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Now I have heard it all.... So Makarov beats Messier even though his team lost --> So a player can be better if his team loses? So how is it possible that Fedorov was better than Selanne 98 even though Selanne won the OG scoring.

And what exactly happened 97?

Maybe people should just agree to disagree. This has been going for 26 pages... They are what they are, future HHOFs.
If you look at the all-star team for the '86/87 World Championship, Makarov is on the list, having scored almost double the 8 points of the highest scoring NHLer Canada sent over (Tanti; Dineen and Ciccarelli with 6). Was also on the 1st line that won the Olympics for the Russians the very next year. For whatever either of you think that's worth.

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03-31-2013, 04:49 PM
  #631
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And what exactly happened 97?
In 1997 Detroit Red Wings swept Anaheim Mighty Ducks.

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03-31-2013, 06:40 PM
  #632
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First of all, I think its pretty obvious that all around player and at there peak Fedorov was better. Maybe im a bit biased as ive lived in Michigan for a long and for quite a few year span I saw pretty much every wing game there was... However saying this some of these arguments for him are complete ******** or maybe we were watching different games.

The idea that he played with lesser players then Selanne. Seriously? That almost seems like a joke. This argument that he played mainly with brown and kozlov or something all the time while Selanne was with Kariya and Zhamnov in Winnipeg is stupid. Fedorov played with some of the greatest players of the last 20 years when he played PERIOD. If you want to argue that yea the wings were more defensive, not as run in gun as Selanne and Kariya were maybe more free to do so, thus maybe padding their stats more so then Fedorov ok.. But seriously in general? No way. Do defense men not count? Did Selanne ever play with someone on Coffees level or Lidstroms? Its a team game. All the centers on the wings besides the grind line, mixed and matched and played with everyone quite often. And after the maybe the second or thrid year larionov was there generally the first and second line mins were switched between Yzerman and Fedorov. And whoever they were playing wtih got the majority of the mins. Then it was larionov, then the grind line. So yea he did play with brown etc. So did the other centers at times as well though. And if you want to use the argument that he even played defense at one point yea he did. But not like he was there the whole game. And I think obviously yea he is the better all around player anyway.. Again im just saying I think this is a stupid argument.


And I will say for Selanne he has way more excuses though. I mean can you even compare Fedorovs injuries to Selannes? I dont even think its close. And longevity yea he also has him beat.. again Fedorov maybe better like overall could do everything, and maybe peak.. But Selanne has quite a few excuses going for him.

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03-31-2013, 07:59 PM
  #633
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Do defense men not count? Did Selanne ever play with someone on Coffees level or Lidstroms?
Housley. A pretty good offensive defenseman.

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Originally Posted by seekritdude View Post
So yea he did play with brown etc. So did the other centers at times as well though.
Brown was pretty much Fedorov's staple partner, except in 1996, when Feds played on the wing in the Russian Five, and in 1998, when Feds was stuck with Gilchrist, another superstar. He also played with Verbeek.

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And if you want to use the argument that he even played defense at one point yea he did. But not like he was there the whole game.
Sure was. For, like, a third of the season in 1997, up until the third game of the playoffs.

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03-31-2013, 08:33 PM
  #634
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Housley. A pretty good offensive defenseman.
Lots of people forget that Olausson has almost 600 career points (mostly in Winnipeg?), and was reunited with Selanne in Anaheim, too. Then there was Tverdovsky, who was a game 3 star selection almost as often as Selanne in '99/00 for example (13 times c.f. Selanne's 15). Then post-lockout there was Scott Niedermayer (and a Cup...). And even in more recent years, Visnovsky, who was a 50 point player in L.A., gave Anaheim another 50 points in '10/11 for another example.

Maybe not as impressive as the names on the top of Fedorov's list, but I'm willing to bet they figured into the scoring of Anaheim's first lines over the years as much as (or more than?) names like Coffey and Lidstrom figured into Fedorov's line's scoring during the '90s. And the entire list beats whoever you can find behind Fedorov over most of the last 7 seasons of his career.

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03-31-2013, 10:31 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I said rank Fedorov on his performance. That means "he scored at X level, and had X defensive capability, etc.", and it doesn't mean "He had the skillset to score 100 points, so count him at that."

Do you understand the difference?
I understand fine. I'm not the one changing Fedorovs stats and and saying what he should have done in what if situations.


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Zhamnov was also better in the NHL than anyone Fedorov played on a line with in his entire career.
Really hope you're kidding with this statement.


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I addressed that under "performance vs. skillset" didn't I? A player who scores 48 points in 80 games every season for three seasons, then the next season scores 35 points in 70 games, are they a 48-point player or a 35-point player? Pretty large gap. If you account for the difference in GP, it's a drop from 48 to 40 (at 80 GP). That's not assuming the player improves or reduces pace; it's simply a mathematical expression of their PPG. Which, given a reasonable sample size (~60% of intended total, or 50GP for an NHL season), can be extended in such manners.
What are you talking about? All I've said was that Selanne dealt with several injuries in San Jose and especially in Col. You jst chalked it up as seasons that Selanne didn't have Kariya. It's a little more complicated than that. And again Fedorov played with rediculous talent in 02 and only have 68 points.

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No, Selanne had many better linemates than McDonald. But Fedorov had none who were better than McDonald (at least at that point in their careers).
Like Who?


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Because having one of the top-three defensemen in the league on each of your first two pairings isn't helpful at all.
I suppose Fedorov never played with Howe, Fetisov, Chiasson, Konstantinov, Coffey, Lidstrom, Chelios, Mike Green?


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Fedorov scored 120 points playing with Slava Kozlov and Dino Ciccarelli. He had four consecutive seasons where he was on pace for and/or scored 100 points, AND was top-four in Selke voting.
Selanne had 4 actual 100 point seasons and led the league in goals 3 times. I'd give their season scoring finishes again but you just ignore that.


Quote:
1995-96:
Selanne: 79GP, 40-68-108
Fedorov: 78GP, 39-68-107

Fedorov's GPG/APG/PPG: 0.50-0.87-1.37

So if we assume that Fedorov plays the one missing game, and scores at the same rate, he gets a goal AND an assist and ends up with a line of:

Fedorov: 79GP, 40-69-109

Which beats Selanne's. Using simple PPG will get Fedorov to 108. Reversing it and taking Selanne to Fedorov's GP gets either 39-67-106 or 107 depending on GPG+APG or just PPG.

Regardless, Fedorov clearly was the more frequent scorer no matter how you put it.
Maybe my math is wrong but if a player has a 1.37 PPG and plays ONE game it's not easy to assume he'd get TWO points. Here's another case of you changing history. Selanne had the same PPG while having more goals and more points and you say Fedorov was "clearly" better on offense.


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Disagree considerably.
Then I guess this debate can go no further. If you only respond to one part of this then please resold to this. Clearly there's no way you will ever believe that Fedorov is on a level below where you hold him. We'll have to just agree to disagree here because I don't understand how you can't see that Selanne had more great seasons than Fedorov. I'm sure it's just the opposite view in your case. But we're really just going in circles here.

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03-31-2013, 11:27 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
What are you talking about? All I've said was that Selanne dealt with several injuries in San Jose and especially in Col. You jst chalked it up as seasons that Selanne didn't have Kariya. It's a little more complicated than that. And again Fedorov played with rediculous talent in 02 and only have 68 points.
You really don't want to bring up '02. You know, when Selanne played a full season and only got 54 points. Played another full season the next year and only got 64 points. And you're pointing to Fedorov's 68 points as a "weakness"? Those 68 points, second on the team to Shanahan's 75, contributed to a 51 win, 116 point season in the standings for the Wings. To put it in further perspective, Fedorov was the highest scoring centre on the 2nd highest scoring team in the league that year. That's a successful team in the DPE for you.

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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Like Who?
If you've read the thread, you've seen plenty so far. I sense you're waiting for one or two specific names to be dropped, and have cases already prepared.

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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
I suppose Fedorov never played with Howe, Fetisov, Chiasson, Konstantinov, Coffey, Lidstrom, Chelios, Mike Green?
Instead of setting up a position that no one is even claiming, why don't you do your own homework to figure out how much impact these guys had on your understanding of Fedorov? You probably already suspect, as I do, that it probably won't yield anything worth the effort.

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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Selanne had 4 actual 100 point seasons and led the league in goals 3 times. I'd give their season scoring finishes again but you just ignore that.
And he totally gets credit for that. But imo, Selanne on the end of Kariya generated scoring plays gets credit divvied up
like Guerin on the end of Thornton generated scoring plays circa the same era, or Shanahan on the end of Janney, Yzerman, and Fedorov generated scoring plays before that.

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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Maybe my math is wrong but if a player has a 1.37 PPG and plays ONE game it's not easy to assume he'd get TWO points. Here's another case of you changing history. Selanne had the same PPG while having more goals and more points and you say Fedorov was "clearly" better on offense.
Yeah, that's going too far, imo. Similarly, no offensive advantage you can find for Selanne in any season translates into enough value to rank him above Fedorov "overall" - essentially all the way up to the lockout.

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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Then I guess this debate can go no further. If you only respond to one part of this then please resold to this. Clearly there's no way you will ever believe that Fedorov is on a level below where you hold him. We'll have to just agree to disagree here because I don't understand how you can't see that Selanne had more great seasons than Fedorov. I'm sure it's just the opposite view in your case. But we're really just going in circles here.
How deep are you actually willing to dig? Because you seem to be avoiding my posts which probe deeper into what fans of either guy were watching game to game back then, for example, and I see you jumping in on the easier points to attack in other posts instead, and still asking for previously provided/discussed information as well.

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04-01-2013, 12:34 AM
  #637
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Sakic missed more games and got significantly more selke votes, again why are you afraid to show his actual defensive impact. Based on defensive gvt is defense that year was nothing special, I doubt detriot goals against suffered dramtically in the games feds missed. If we are saying who had the better season, then why the hell are you brining up his pace? This is one of Fedorov's worst seasons and here you are claiming he was as good as pavel bure that year and a top 3-5 forward in the whole league. He had loads of help that year, a massive chunk of his points came with lidstrom and powerplay time with yzerman/shanahan. In 2002 he spent the whole season with shanahan and got outscored. You love overrating his credentials.

Detriot's goals against in 1997: 197
Goals against in 1998 without fedorov: 196, still one of the best defensive teams in the league. LOL yeah he made such a big defensive impact individually, hes a rod langway caliber of a defensive impact player for sure.
1996-97 average league GPG: 5.8
1997-98 average league GPG: 5.3

1997-98 is recognized as the start of the DPE. Detroit stayed the same (basically) in GA, when the league average over 82 games dropped by 21 goals per team. And Detroit ALSO lost Konstantinov that summer, recognized as the league's top defensive defenseman at the time. And they traded Vernon, keeping Hodson as backup. All of those things should have sent the Wings' GA upwards, but they didn't - unless you factor in the whole league's average GPG dropping. Detroit was #2 in GA (behind New Jersey's 182) in 1997, with Dallas at 198 right behind them. The next season, they were #7, behind NJ (166), Dallas (167), Buffalo (187), Pittsburgh (188), and Philadelphia (193) with Chicago (199) close behind. They went from sixth offensively (253 goals) behind Pittsburgh (285), Colorado (277), Philadelphia (274), NY Rangers (258), Vancouver (257) and just ahead of Edmonton (252), Dallas (252), and Montreal (249). They were second the next season, behind only St. Louis (256), despite dropping a mere 3 goals.

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In 2000 the red wings were a middle of the pack team in terms of goals against with a mediocre 210, compared to st. louis who only allowed 165 goals. His defense that year doesnt make up for 20 invisible points.

Detriot's goals against in 2003 with fedorov: 203
In 2004 when feds leaves: 189
Major Loss: Fedorov.
Major Additions: Hatcher, Hasek, Lang (deadline)
Major Improvements: Fischer, Zetterberg, Datsyuk

Focused on defense more: Lidstrom

Quote:
In 2000 pavol demitra only played 3 more games and finished 6th in selke voting
He had better than PPG, and he broke that "magical" 70 game barrier which to many means he played a full season. He was also a solid defensive player in his prime.

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Oates finished 4th with four first place votes and many 2nd place votes. Owen Nolan and Mark Recci racked up a ton of hart votes. Owen Nolan was 5th in hart voting. Jagr, Bure and Healthy Sakic were the best forwards that year. Then after them were recci, nolan, kariya, selanne, modano, yzerman. Oates and demitra would have remained well ahead of feds in selke voting. Go on keep overrating the guy.
In 2000 Yzerman won the Selke, and was the 1st-team All-Star. It's a noticeable trend that when multiple players on the same team are contending for a single award (Hart, Selke, Norris, AS, etc.) it is rare to see two teammates high in voting regardless of performance. If one player is clearly more deserving than any of his teammates, it often will result in teammates being left off the ballot entirely - even in favor of lesser players from other teams.

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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Well, he never did get the same kind of consideration as he did from that season. Actually he's second best season he finished 1st in Selke voting and had 68 Hart votes. Not being in the top-4 in voting. So it seems to me that he never managed to pull of the same caliber season but once. Which is arguably the only season he has better than any of Selanne's seasons.
Fedorov was better than Selanne every season from 93-94 to 95-96, just on a comparison of PPG. Then consider that Fedorov was 1st/4th/1st in Selke voting those years and Fedorov has nt one year, but a three year span where he was FAR, FAR better than Selanne.

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Selanne Got more points cause he had better PPG and he played in more games. Which both are pretty significant deals when judging any forwards worth in one season.
Again, we're not judging "how much total value did this player have in this season" we're judging "when on the ice, who was the better player?" That's a significantly different question.

And including a forward's defensive ability in an overall estimation of how good they are is not unfair. Using simple PPG would place players like Kadri as better than Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Toews this season. And while Kadri has had a strong season, it doesn't even account for the variance by conference of offense.

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I never compared Fedorov 99 to 93. I just derailed in my post a bit. This is about that one single year.

Yeah, i am now at least trying to look at this more deeply. But i get how it can be annoying since Selanne has his injuries and very often when someone want's to bring him down those years are looked without any context.
Fedorov post-lockout was fighting injuries since day one. He missed 13 of the first 18 games post-lockout (and then was traded to Columbus) and still managed to be a solid defensive contributor and 50-point (pace) player in a reduced role.

Again, with Selanne, it's always "but he was injured in those handful of years where he wasn't as good." Everyone's injured. It happens.

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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Really hope you're kidding with this statement.
Who did Fedorov play ON A LINE WITH in the NHL, who was better IN THE NHL than Zhamnov? Or Tkachuk? Or Kariya? Or McDonald? Or Ryan?

Umm... uhhhh...

Yeah.

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What are you talking about? All I've said was that Selanne dealt with several injuries in San Jose and especially in Col. You jst chalked it up as seasons that Selanne didn't have Kariya. It's a little more complicated than that. And again Fedorov played with rediculous talent in 02 and only have 68 points.
Fedorov played through plenty of injuries. In the 1996 playoffs he was playing with a broken rib and played multiple games on it, and then had another rib broken on a check by Aaron Miller. He ended up coming back after the Wings doctor fixed him up so he could breathe without immense pain. And dominated the next couple of games.

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Maybe my math is wrong but if a player has a 1.37 PPG and plays ONE game it's not easy to assume he'd get TWO points. Here's another case of you changing history. Selanne had the same PPG while having more goals and more points and you say Fedorov was "clearly" better on offense.
It only works out to one point (rounded down) as a projection if you use total points. When making projections, it's better to separate goals and assists. In Fedorov's particular instance, he had exactly one goal for every two games, so that rounded up. And he had more assists than goals, so that rounded up. But in total, it didn't work out to two points per game on the average; just 1.37 points. And I DID address this in the original post; the initial projection was made with separate GPG and APG (resulting in two points) and then I noted that projecting points alone only yields a single-point increase from 107 to 108. Selanne, similarly, sees a one-point drop from PPG or a two-point drop from GPG+APG if projected to Fedorov's games.

Furthermore, my main point was simply that Fedorov has the better PPG. That is, was, and will be true for the 1995-96 season regardless of whether you choose to agree with me on anything else. That is a statistical fact. And it was the third year in a row Fedorov had a better PPG.

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04-01-2013, 02:02 AM
  #638
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In 1997 Detroit Red Wings swept Anaheim Mighty Ducks.
Maybe that's a good indication of the overall strength differences between the teams? It's not that Selanne did not deliver in those playoffs, he had 10 points in 11 games.

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04-01-2013, 02:16 AM
  #639
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Maybe that's a good indication of the overall strength differences between the teams? It's not that Selanne did not deliver in those playoffs, he had 10 points in 11 games.
More to his point, I think, were Selanne's 2 points and -3 in that 4 game sweep by the Red Wings; compared with Fedorov's 5 points and +5 that series, I suppose. Fedorov should have had much more that series. I think he only had 1 goal to show for the 15 shots he got on net over the first 2 games.

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04-01-2013, 02:24 AM
  #640
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If you look at the all-star team for the '86/87 World Championship, Makarov is on the list, having scored almost double the 8 points of the highest scoring NHLer Canada sent over (Tanti; Dineen and Ciccarelli with 6). Was also on the 1st line that won the Olympics for the Russians the very next year. For whatever either of you think that's worth.
Thanks for the info. However I was not criticizing Makarov vs. Messier. It's the double standard that I don't like. Selanne was crucial for Finland to get top4 in 98. He was the leading scorer in those olympics.

So how can one say that Fedorov was better face to face? Because Finland lost to Russia? Then he should not be citing that Makarov was better even though Russia lost. You can not have both.

Personally I think that comparing team achievements is stupid because this is a team sport and one man can do only so little.

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04-01-2013, 08:07 AM
  #641
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You really don't want to bring up '02. You know, when Selanne played a full season and only got 54 points. Played another full season the next year and only got 64 points.
So you're denying that Teemu Selanne was injured?

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04-01-2013, 11:16 AM
  #642
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So you're denying that Teemu Selanne was injured?
Injury is acceptable as a "Selanne was actually the better player in these seasons" excuse, but for the last four years of Fedorov's NHL career (plus the fact he retired earlier than Selanne because he didn't have a lockout to recuperate from them with) are simply an example of Selanne's superior longevity?

If there's no 2004 lockout, Selanne retires. And then, Fedorov has superior longevity by a great deal.

Don't use Selanne's injuries as an excuse unless you're willing to wipe out anything after Fedorov's first injury post-2005, which was with Anaheim (and he was injured right away, which means wipe away everything after the 2005 lockout).

So we can compare them from 1992-93 through 1999-2000, and again I think that comparison falls pretty squarely in Fedorov's court for the win.

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04-01-2013, 11:48 AM
  #643
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So you're denying that Teemu Selanne was injured?
Affected by his injury? Certainly. Anyone watching saw a less effective Selanne than before. But '01/02 is the beginning of a streak of at least 164 consecutive regular season games, and only 6 games missed over the 5 years that followed, so I'll say no, he wasn't "injured" (if you don't sit out any games, you certainly can't play up the limitation of whatever injury). It also bears mentioning that each of Fedorov's injury bouts post-lockout (or even in '99/00) caused him to miss an equal or higher percentage of his team's games from season to season than Selanne missed in '97/98, '98/99, or '00/01 (67, 62, 73, 68 GP c.f. 73, 75, 73).

Conspicuously, though, the pro-Selanne crowd turns a blind eye to Fedorov's injury history (in his defense, he played through some of the more severe ones, like broken ribs, so expectations, right?) while demanding considerable consideration and understanding for Selanne's trips to the IR.

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04-01-2013, 05:13 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Injury is acceptable as a "Selanne was actually the better player in these seasons" excuse, but for the last four years of Fedorov's NHL career (plus the fact he retired earlier than Selanne because he didn't have a lockout to recuperate from them with) are simply an example of Selanne's superior longevity?

If there's no 2004 lockout, Selanne retires. And then, Fedorov has superior longevity by a great deal.

Don't use Selanne's injuries as an excuse unless you're willing to wipe out anything after Fedorov's first injury post-2005, which was with Anaheim (and he was injured right away, which means wipe away everything after the 2005 lockout).

So we can compare them from 1992-93 through 1999-2000, and again I think that comparison falls pretty squarely in Fedorov's court for the win.
No one is using Selanne's injuries as an excuse for why Fedorov was better for four seasons from 2001-2004; we're saying it is the reason for why Fedorov was better for four seasons from 2001-2004. This is a direct response to one of your false claims. Selanne's production started dropping in 2000 because of his knee - not because of losing Paul Kariya (as you have alleged), as Selanne's production was dropping while he was still playing with Kariya.


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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
But '01/02 is the beginning of a streak of at least 164 consecutive regular season games, and only 6 games missed over the 5 years that followed, so I'll say no, he wasn't "injured" (if you don't sit out any games, you certainly can't play up the limitation of whatever injury).
Maybe someone would actually buy into your argument about not being injured if one is not missing games if knee surgery didn't prompt Selanne's return to the goal scoring and point races. When a player's thigh muscle atrophies in one leg, it doesn't take an HFBoard poster to "play up the limitation of whatever injury" for most people to understand that this knee injury is the proximate cause for down years - not the lack of linemates (especially considering his pace improved significantly despite going from Kariya/Sakic in 2004 to Kunitz/McDonald in 2006).

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04-01-2013, 09:05 PM
  #645
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Maybe someone would actually buy into your argument about not being injured if one is not missing games if knee surgery didn't prompt Selanne's return to the goal scoring and point races. When a player's thigh muscle atrophies in one leg, it doesn't take an HFBoard poster to "play up the limitation of whatever injury" for most people to understand that this knee injury is the proximate cause for down years - not the lack of linemates (especially considering his pace improved significantly despite going from Kariya/Sakic in 2004 to Kunitz/McDonald in 2006).
You can only rewrite history so much when sympathizing with Selanne. No one with a "legitimate" leg injury plays 80-160 games without at least one maintenance day. I say legitimate, because Selanne had a legitimate condition affecting his performance, but he was obviously "healthy" according to the definition of the team doctors. There obviously wasn't anything damaged that risked getting damaged even worse - or however you want to define "injured" vs "hindered" or "limited", etc.

Lost in the pre-surgery/lockout decline of Selanne, is that his drop to a 32 point player over 70+ games was equal parts having been robbed of his special skills AND not being able to rekindle any kind of "real" chemistry with Kariya when they were reunited in Colorado. Still amazing what Selanne has been able to do since taking the lockout year off to rehab, don't get me wrong. Just saying that these guys were in the league for a long time together before I think anyone honestly thought Selanne was making up any ground on Fedorov in any "overall" or even "career value" sense.

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04-01-2013, 09:43 PM
  #646
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You can only rewrite history so much when sympathizing with Selanne. No one with a "legitimate" leg injury plays 80-160 games without at least one maintenance day. I say legitimate, because Selanne had a legitimate condition affecting his performance, but he was obviously "healthy" according to the definition of the team doctors. There obviously wasn't anything damaged that risked getting damaged even worse - or however you want to define "injured" vs "hindered" or "limited", etc.
Are you intentionally saying ridiculous things just to feel like you're making some kind of counterpoint?

Teemu Selanne played hurt. He was slow. His production dropped.
Teemu Selanne got healthy. He was fast. His production returned.

It's that simple. There's no re-write of history. Again, he was awarded the Bill Masterton Trophy because he returned to form after surgery. People who undergo surgeries and rehab don't do so because they have conditions; they're injured. Legitimately.

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Lost in the pre-surgery/lockout decline of Selanne, is that his drop to a 32 point player over 70+ games was equal parts having been robbed of his special skills AND not being able to rekindle any kind of "real" chemistry with Kariya when they were reunited in Colorado.
Because an injured and slow Teemu Selanne is not pre-2000 Teemu Selanne or post-2004 Teemu Selanne. For those four seasons that make up the worst stretch of Selanne's career (2001, 2002, 2003, 2004), Fedorov was the better hockey player. There's no excuse being used; it is what it is - but I'm not going to let you claim that playing without Kariya or Getzlaf or whomever is the reason his production dropped when everyone else but you and eva_unit_zero understands and acknowledges that his play suffered because of the injury, hence Selanne not having chemistry with Sakic/Kariya while injured - and being better than Fedorov in the four years that preceded that stretch and the seven years that followed it.

"Equal parts" injury and lack of chemistry? PLEASE.

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Still amazing what Selanne has been able to do since taking the lockout year off to rehab, don't get me wrong. Just saying that these guys were in the league for a long time together before I think anyone honestly thought Selanne was making up any ground on Fedorov in any "overall" or even "career value" sense.
There was never a large gap between. They were trading elite seasons in 1992-93 and 1993-94, with Fedorov pulling ahead when they both had strong 1995-96 seasons. Then Coffey left Detroit and Fedorov's resume became exclusively supported by the playoffs while Selanne peaked in 1996-97 (2nd in Goals, 2nd in Points), 1997-98 (1st in Goals, Hart Nominee), 1998-99 (1st in Goals, 2nd in Points). Fedorov didn't have three seasons as good as that in the NHL.

The best season? Yes (1994 vs. 1998)
Second best? No (1996 vs. 1999)
Third best? No (2003 vs. 1997)
Fourth best? No (1995 vs. 1993)
Fifth best? No (2000 vs. 1996)
Sixth best? No (1992 vs. 2007)
Seventh best? No (1993 vs. 2011)
Eighth best? No (1997 vs. 2000)
Ninth best? No (2002 vs. 2006)
Tenth best? Now it's getting close again (1991 vs. 2001)

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04-01-2013, 10:27 PM
  #647
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Maybe someone would actually buy into your argument about not being injured if one is not missing games if knee surgery didn't prompt Selanne's return to the goal scoring and point races. When a player's thigh muscle atrophies in one leg, it doesn't take an HFBoard poster to "play up the limitation of whatever injury" for most people to understand that this knee injury is the proximate cause for down years - not the lack of linemates (especially considering his pace improved significantly despite going from Kariya/Sakic in 2004 to Kunitz/McDonald in 2006).
Steve Yzerman scored 155 points the season after severely injuring his knee. He had clearly lost his top gear (and never regained it) and had to adjust his playing style to fit his new skating level. He still won the Pearson. He had a severe herniated disc in 1993 which limited his ability to shoot and skate at the same level; he still managed a Selke, Conn Smythe, and 1st team selection after that point. Selanne was about the same age for his knee injury as Yzerman for the neck injury.

Why couldn't Selanne adapt and still be an elite player immediately following his injury the way Yzerman did, if he's so much better than Fedorov?

Selanne's injury occured in January or February of 2001, the same season he was traded to the Sharks.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/mar/02/sports/sp-32349

In fact, he was traded three days after that article was published.

Selanne is getting "Oh, but his knee injury changed him from an elite player into a mediocre player; just count him as an elite player anyway." credit for the non-Anaheim years; I think that is unfair at best.

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04-01-2013, 10:31 PM
  #648
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Just saying that these guys were in the league for a long time together before I think anyone honestly thought Selanne was making up any ground on Fedorov in any "overall" or even "career value" sense.
To expand upon this; it took Selanne's career having a miraculous rebirth, combined with Fedorov hitting a string of injuries from day one after the lockout through the end of his final NHL season for anyone to view Selanne as better. As of 2005, Fedorov was considered the far greater player. As of 2002, Fedorov was a surefire, lock, guaranteed HHOFer while Selanne was still being debated.

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04-01-2013, 10:38 PM
  #649
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Selanne is getting "Oh, but his knee injury changed him from an elite player into a mediocre player; just count him as an elite player anyway." credit for the non-Anaheim years; I think that is unfair at best.
I've said that Fedorov was better in 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004. I've said that Selanne's injury is the proximate cause for his decline - not his separation from Paul Kariya, as you have claimed.

I will never respond to you again, because you have shown an inability to discuss hockey on HOH without deliberately using strawman arguments and talking about Steve Yzerman.

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04-02-2013, 12:15 AM
  #650
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Because an injured and slow Teemu Selanne is not pre-2000 Teemu Selanne or post-2004 Teemu Selanne. For those four seasons that make up the worst stretch of Selanne's career (2001, 2002, 2003, 2004), Fedorov was the better hockey player. There's no excuse being used; it is what it is - but I'm not going to let you claim that playing without Kariya or Getzlaf or whomever is the reason his production dropped when everyone else but you and eva_unit_zero understands and acknowledges that his play suffered because of the injury, hence Selanne not having chemistry with Sakic/Kariya while injured - and being better than Fedorov in the four years that preceded that stretch and the seven years that followed it.

"Equal parts" injury and lack of chemistry? PLEASE.
Don't know where you've ever seen any of us point to one single factor as THE reason for anything, but the linemates aspect has been discussed in enough detail to not bring it back around now. It's not even a matter of linemates vs health for me, as I don't find it that difficult to see the symptoms of both (not in memory, nor in hindsight). As for the bolded, I still say you have to be biased toward raw offensive numbers (even more dangerous with goal scoring wingers, imo) to so easily claim the year ranges you list there. Lots to consider (face to face meetings in the playoffs, for one example among many), as this thread has hopefully somewhat proven.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
There was never a large gap between. They were trading elite seasons in 1992-93 and 1993-94, with Fedorov pulling ahead when they both had strong 1995-96 seasons. Then Coffey left Detroit and Fedorov's resume became exclusively supported by the playoffs while Selanne peaked in 1996-97 (2nd in Goals, 2nd in Points), 1997-98 (1st in Goals, Hart Nominee), 1998-99 (1st in Goals, 2nd in Points). Fedorov didn't have three seasons as good as that in the NHL.
You say "exclusively supported by the playoffs", as if you haven't argued that Roy should be considered above Hasek BECAUSE of his playoff resume and his ability to raise his play to a level wins Cups, and prove his calibre when it mattered... Results. Matter.

I mean, even giving Selanne some of those regular seasons (let raw numbers make it easy for argument's sake), exactly when/how often did we see Selanne surpass the level Fedorov displayed in (all of?) those playoffs? I assume I'm going to be confronted with a points/PPG retort, but I'd be more interested in reading something less easily dismissed. I've already shown that 85 not always > 62.

When it comes down to it, regardless of what the raw numbers look like, these guys proved their worth year after year, and I still submit that Fedorov "won" that balance for the majority of their career overlap - without even relying on this loosely defined stretch of time and injuries that slowed Selanne down in the middle somewhere (finally dealt with during the '04/05 lockout).

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