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Old
03-27-2013, 02:43 PM
  #1
BVicious
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From Bad to awful

I've carefully reviewed our contracts, cap space, trade candidates and current spot in the standings and I think things have gone from bad to awful.

The reason Feaster hasn't been able to 'blow it up' and rebuild is because he is still handcuffed.

1) Iginla controls where he goes. NMC. List of teams lowers price because the need to out bid someone isn't there. You are only outbidding his list of teams. That and he is the face of the franchise. You HAVE to get a quality return. The pressure would be unfathomable.

2) Kipper. He won't get traded, might retire and we don't have the goalie depth we were led to believe. Why target Bernier and Subban if we have such depth? They know more than us.

3) JBo. NTC, hefty salary. He controls where he goes, again lowering their options. But he plays well for Hartley, so we could build around him.

4) Cammy. NTC, huge price tag for his production. Cap goes down, must scare other GMs.

5) Tangs/GlenX - both have NTC, but hold some value. Both WANT to be here, so I doubt they waive.

Cap going down next year, we are at 49 contracts, multiple NTC's hampering our chance to move players. This week won't be as exciting and we as Flames fans better start preparing to be disappointed in the return for Iginla.

Best case scenario is we can finish in the bottom 5, get a top 5 pick. Maybe group some picks together from the Iggy trade with another player to get another high pick.

But you are going to see and very similar roster next year minus our 2 best players if Kipps retires. We can't trade everyone even if we wanted to.

Do u agree? Do u think we are in a bad situation that just got worse over the past few weeks?

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03-27-2013, 03:27 PM
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Stewie Griffin
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If you think it just got worse over the last few weeks I'd like to ask where you've been since like 2011.

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03-27-2013, 03:27 PM
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1) List of teams is just the 4 biggest contenders and without a NMC these are the 4 teams that would pay the most for Iginla anyways. The way TSN has it Bruins are in constant talks for him while Chicago and Pitt are staying very connected if they have a chance to out-bid.

2) Right now guys who can play in the NHL for us next year (assuming Kipper retires) would be limited to Ramo, Mac, and Irving. The organization isn't too high on Irving and there are plenty of question marks about the other guys carrying the load as well. Picking up a young goalie closer to being NHL ready than Brossiot and Gillies wouldn't be the end of the world.

3) JBo plays well for Hartley, so we could build around him. this isn't a negative

4) We can hold onto up to 50% of Cammy's salary in a trade if someone is offering for him.

5) Tangs/GlenX - both have NTC, but hold some value. Both WANT to be here, so I doubt they waive. Glencross doesn't hurt our team by staying at 2.5M if Iggy goes Tangs might waive if he wants to stay here and be a part of bringing up young players I could think of worse mentors



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Cap going down next year, we are at 49 contracts, multiple NTC's hampering our chance to move players. This week won't be as exciting and we as Flames fans better start preparing to be disappointed in the return for Iginla.
This is really the only thing I'm not liking going into the draft & deadline hopefully we can address it like dropping Karlsson for a late pick.

Quote:
Best case scenario is we can finish in the bottom 5, get a top 5 pick. Maybe group some picks together from the Iggy trade with another player to get another high pick.
High picks aren't everything if Weisbrough is liking how other young players around the league are developing we might end up with players that can contribute sooner rather than later.

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But you are going to see and very similar roster next year minus our 2 best players if Kipps retires. We can't trade everyone even if we wanted to.
Or if we are giving up Iggy like reports suggest that could be the spark that sees ~1/3 or more of the current roster out the door on deadline, draft, and letting guys walk.

It's not a great situation in having a losing team and losing a guy that we've all supported for years; but if we do nothing things keep trending downwards. If we are smart we could giving Hartley the seeds he needs to grow an exciting new Flames team.

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03-27-2013, 03:28 PM
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So we're in an identical situation next year but somehow it gets worse? How do you figure?

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03-27-2013, 03:35 PM
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I don't think it got worse. Tanguay and Glencross took considerable discounts to stay here so they deserve those NTCs. The way I see it, if a team is interested and has room for Cammalleri or Bouwmeester a deal can be made, but its more likely that they will be dealt the next season as rentals.

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03-27-2013, 03:48 PM
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I think it got worse cuz most fans (albeit from HF) expected big returns from guys like Iggy, Kipper and JBo. I am not convinced this is possible anymore. Unless teams are desperate, the cap going down next year and all the NMC this team has really limits the return in many deals.

And by mentioning GlenX and Tangs, I meant they could fetch us a good return in 'blow it up' along with the others but I am perfectly fine with keeping these two.

Point is, we don't have contract space to bring back bodies in deadline deals. A lower cap next year ultimately lowers any value for a selling team as you would have to take salary back. Iggy isn't getting the offers we hoped and the list of teams he would waive to must understand its in their favor as we must get something for him. Kipper doesn't have a NTC but basically just created his own.

Those are situations no one saw pre-lockout. Cap, contracts, Kipps, and Owners finally backing the decsion to move Iggy.

Oh and Sven got hurt then sad.

So I think it did get bad to worse.

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03-27-2013, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
2) Kipper. He won't get traded, might retire and we don't have the goalie depth we were led to believe. Why target Bernier and Subban if we have such depth? They know more than us.
The facts suggest otherwise.

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03-27-2013, 04:43 PM
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Oiler fan coming in peace.

Even without Kiprusoff your goaltending is better than the Oilers....

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03-27-2013, 05:18 PM
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I don't know if Cammy still has a NTC, when someone is traded the new team doesn't have to honor the NTC clause.

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03-27-2013, 05:48 PM
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I'm sure one of MacKinnon, Jones, Drouin, Barkov, Monahan would cheer us up a little. Not to mention the picks/prospects we land from the Iginla trade.

I'm just crossing my fingers that Ramo is legit, and transitions well from the KHL to the NHL.

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Old
03-28-2013, 10:08 AM
  #11
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So back to my thread about bad to worse. This is what I meant. A fire sale doesn't exactly equal success or getting quality return. This NTC problem we have I bigger than most think. Next up, JBo. If u think teams are going to offer the world for him, knowing he controls the situation, you will be disappointed......again.

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03-28-2013, 11:25 AM
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I think teams would offer quite a bit for JBo, but I still don't think we should trade him. Our success will be determined through the draft, not by who we can convince to waive NTC's.

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03-30-2013, 08:14 PM
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Guido Sarducci
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Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
I think teams would offer quite a bit for JBo, but I still don't think we should trade him. Our success will be determined through the draft, not by who we can convince to waive NTC's.
I get your point Zoombie, but the amount of draft picks depends mainly on how many vets(many with NTC) get shipped out.

Really all Pittsburgs' first does is replace the missing second. So unless I am mistaken the only pick that the Flames have stockpiled is Chicagos' seventh. Likely the very last draft pick.

And as nice as it is to build up picks I'd like to see the Flames trade for some role players as well. This team will need players to play the rest of the season if they trade away some of the vets.

Edit- I forgot that the Flames have no 5th round pick. (Wideman) Anybody know of a website that shows who owns what picks?


Last edited by Guido Sarducci: 03-31-2013 at 03:34 PM.
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Old
03-30-2013, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Guido Sarducci View Post
I get your point Zoombie, but the amount of draft picks depends mainly on how many vets(many with NTC) get shipped out.

Really all Pittsburgs' first does is replace the missing second. So unless I am mistaken the only pick that the Flames have stockpiled is Chicagos' seventh. Likely the very last draft pick.

And as nice as it is to build up picks I'd like to see the Flames trade for some role players as well. This team will need players to play the rest of the season if they trade away some of the vets.
It's true. Our pits pick is basically a 2nd cuz it will be 30th pick. And we can already write STL off te list for JBo. But I'm ok with keeping him and extending him if he takes a discount.

I would like this team to remain competitive next year. I don't think moving lots of bodies for draft picks is the way to go. I think a few key signings, and less dependence on building around Iggy will already payoff. I think we really need to target a center. And I would be happy to pry a young center from Philly, given their interest in JBo. I would keep him and deal him at the draft for a center, if not keep him till you get that center.


Can't trade our best player unless its for a player we NEED. No more wingers

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03-30-2013, 09:27 PM
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Why target Bernier and Subban if we have such depth? They know more than us.
They do? I think we all saw what happened with Irving. Goaltending is a major organizational problem coming up real soon

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04-01-2013, 11:58 AM
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They do? I think we all saw what happened with Irving. Goaltending is a major organizational problem coming up real soon
We have holes everywhere, Goaltending should be one of the last places we spend picks on.

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04-01-2013, 12:26 PM
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We have holes everywhere, Goaltending should be one of the last places we spend picks on.
I agree. We have built a team from the goalie out and it got us no where. We need to build from the center down IMO. How many elite goalies win championships in the last 10 seasons? Teams who win cups have a real elite Centerman, or 2.

We can expedite this rebuild if we make smart choices with our current assets. Building through the draft takes 2-3 years for it to be seen at the NHL level.

We asked for our past underachievers to step up this season, and they did (JBo, Stajan, Backs) now we need a team full of players fighting for ice time and roster spots.

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04-01-2013, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
I agree. We have built a team from the goalie out and it got us no where. We need to build from the center down IMO. How many elite goalies win championships in the last 10 seasons? Teams who win cups have a real elite Centerman, or 2.

We can expedite this rebuild if we make smart choices with our current assets. Building through the draft takes 2-3 years for it to be seen at the NHL level.

We asked for our past underachievers to step up this season, and they did (JBo, Stajan, Backs) now we need a team full of players fighting for ice time and roster spots.
You could argue that the last 2 Cup winners were there because of their goaltending. Both Thomas and Quick won the Conn Smythe.

My point is, Goaltending is a problem you solve later on, they are impossible to predict and most of the time can be found in late stages of the draft.

We need to focus on getting back quality NHL players. Hanowski and Agostino are basically the worst kind of prospect to get back (decent, with maybe the ability to jump into the NHL bottom 6 someday)

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04-01-2013, 12:46 PM
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I don't know if Cammy still has a NTC, when someone is traded the new team doesn't have to honor the NTC clause.
I think you take on the contract and all of its terms, hence Cammy is still paid the amount that he and Montreal agreed upon

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04-01-2013, 12:58 PM
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I think you take on the contract and all of its terms, hence Cammy is still paid the amount that he and Montreal agreed upon
As well read somewhere that Cammy would like to stay in Calgary and aid with the rebuild. I see him as the next Captain here, unless Iggy decides to return after winning the cup. Cammy's NTC stipulates he must submit a list of ten teams every year that he would not want to get traded to.

Is it just me are others as disapointed as I'm with what Iggy just pulled. Essentially we received a first for him as the Bruins deal was a lot better then Pens, but Iggy only wanted to go to the Pens.

Is Crosby getting injured just Karma for what Iggy did to the Flames.

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04-01-2013, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by flamer4life View Post
As well read somewhere that Cammy would like to stay in Calgary and aid with the rebuild. I see him as the next Captain here, unless Iggy decides to return after winning the cup. Cammy's NTC stipulates he must submit a list of ten teams every year that he would not want to get traded to.

Is it just me are others as disapointed as I'm with what Iggy just pulled. Essentially we received a first for him as the Bruins deal was a lot better then Pens, but Iggy only wanted to go to the Pens.

Is Crosby getting injured just Karma for what Iggy did to the Flames.
No because Feaster was stupid enough to let Iggy pick between the final 3 offers, once Iggy knew the Pens wanted him he choose them Feaster ****ed it up.

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04-01-2013, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by flamer4life View Post
As well read somewhere that Cammy would like to stay in Calgary and aid with the rebuild. I see him as the next Captain here, unless Iggy decides to return after winning the cup. Cammy's NTC stipulates he must submit a list of ten teams every year that he would not want to get traded to.

Is it just me are others as disapointed as I'm with what Iggy just pulled. Essentially we received a first for him as the Bruins deal was a lot better then Pens, but Iggy only wanted to go to the Pens.

Is Crosby getting injured just Karma for what Iggy did to the Flames.
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
No because Feaster was stupid enough to let Iggy pick between the final 3 offers, once Iggy knew the Pens wanted him he choose them Feaster ****ed it up.
Right, heaven forbid we do right by our captain. What an idiot Feaster is for not lying to him. Honestly people, give your head a shake.

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04-01-2013, 03:53 PM
  #23
Stewie Griffin
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Is Crosby getting injured just Karma for what Iggy did to the Flames.
Clearly you don't understand Karma...

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04-01-2013, 09:20 PM
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So back to my thread about bad to worse. This is what I meant. A fire sale doesn't exactly equal success or getting quality return. This NTC problem we have I bigger than most think. Next up, JBo. If u think teams are going to offer the world for him, knowing he controls the situation, you will be disappointed......again.
Lol I think I mentioned this lots, but you have to understand we value out players differently. The fact we managed 2 first round picks in these 2 deals is a plus.

Feaster said something interesting is we have cap space. Either buyouts or cap dumps, but their will be players (RFA) or cap dumps we can pick up next year. Package a decent young kid with a huge cap dump for one of our players. Teams that are in cap jail are at our mercy.

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04-01-2013, 09:25 PM
  #25
Stewie Griffin
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So...


What comes after "awful"?

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