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All Encompassing Tortorella Thread Pt. II

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Old
04-01-2013, 04:18 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by Dorado View Post
There's been a lot of names on that cup and conn Smythe since 2004 . To quote Vince Lomabrdi '" fatigue makes cowards of most men " and Beaver is looking awfully tired
Less than 10 on that Conn Smythe, actually.

Im not arguing he looks tired and steps slow this season. Where you and me are different is I realize that ranting and raving against him does nothing considering the organization's best play is to hope he finds it in these next few weeks.

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04-01-2013, 04:18 PM
  #752
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Here are the numbers:
NYR under John Tortorella (2009-2013)
GP 305 - Won 165 - Lost 112 - OTL 28 - 1,17 PPG
Playoffs 32 GP, 14-18 record; EC Finals in 2012

NYR under Tom Renney (2004-2009)
GP 337 - Won 174 - Lost 117 - OTL 46 - 1,17 PPG
Playoffs 24 GP, 11-13 record; EC SemiFinals in 2007 + 2008

I was - as is quite clear - no fan of Tom Renney and knew when he had overstayed his welcome
But the records are quite similar and we know how it ended for Tom
OTOH one cannot compare the styles of hockey judged on entertainment value
What we are seeing now is some of the most boring, uninspiring non-hockey I have ever seen
Guy is a relic of a different age - Stone Age if you may

Time for a modern leader and lover of the game of hockey to step up and take over...


Last edited by BBKers: 04-01-2013 at 04:25 PM.
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Old
04-01-2013, 04:25 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Less than 10 on that Conn Smythe, actually.

Im not arguing he looks tired and steps slow this season. Where you and me are different is I realize that ranting and raving against him does nothing considering the organization's best play is to hope he finds it in these next few weeks.
I wanna see the guy turn It around as much as anyone . With my eyes I haven't seen any indication of that happening .
I understand the whole going not buying him out without a back up plan in place as well. I'm not so sure that next season even if he decides to add some lean muscle and train hard and go to Gary Roberts instead of playing 36 a day he is able to turn back the clock

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04-01-2013, 04:32 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
Ah, because bringing in a new coach with only a few weeks left wouldn't be letting the season "waste away" or anything, right?
It might still happen but at least there was an attempt to make a change.

What do I know though? Not like the Devils haven't fired a coach around this time with their team set pretty well in the playoffs.

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04-01-2013, 04:40 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Here are the numbers:
NYR under John Tortorella (2009-2013)
GP 305 - Won 165 - Lost 112 - OTL 28 - 1,17 PPG
Playoffs 32 GP, 14-18 record; EC Finals in 2012

NYR under Tom Renney (2004-2009)
GP 337 - Won 174 - Lost 117 - OTL 46 - 1,17 PPG
Playoffs 24 GP, 11-13 record; EC SemiFinals in 2007 + 2008

I was - as is quite clear - no fan of Tom Renney and knew when he had overstayed his welcome
But the records are quite similar and we know how it ended for Tom
OTOH one cannot compare the styles of hockey judged on entertainment value
What we are seeing now is some of the most boring, uninspiring non-hockey I have ever seen
Guy is a relic of a different age - Stone Age if you may

Time for a modern leader and lover of the game of hockey to step up and take over...
Lets be frank about John Tortorella. The man would never be mistaken for a tactical guru.

But he preaches hard work and attention to detail on the defensive side of the puck. You can be cute and call it stone age, but those are principles in the sport of hockey that will never, ever die. They will always be paramount, in fact.

So, if you want to make a stink about how Torts' message has been tuned out, I might buy into that.

But dont tell me that his system is the major hurdle preventing success.

Because not until a team buys in and executes their coach's message and it subsequently doesnt work, do they have a right to complain about the game plan.

...And I havent seen this team want every loose puck for a full 60 minutes in any game this entire God damn season.

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04-01-2013, 04:45 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
...And I havent seen this team want every loose puck for a full 60 minutes in any game this entire God damn season.
The horrible and sad truth.

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04-01-2013, 04:53 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Here are the numbers:
NYR under John Tortorella (2009-2013)
GP 305 - Won 165 - Lost 112 - OTL 28 - 1,17 PPG
Playoffs 32 GP, 14-18 record; EC Finals in 2012

NYR under Tom Renney (2004-2009)
GP 337 - Won 174 - Lost 117 - OTL 46 - 1,17 PPG
Playoffs 24 GP, 11-13 record; EC SemiFinals in 2007 + 2008

I was - as is quite clear - no fan of Tom Renney and knew when he had overstayed his welcome
But the records are quite similar and we know how it ended for Tom
OTOH one cannot compare the styles of hockey judged on entertainment value
What we are seeing now is some of the most boring, uninspiring non-hockey I have ever seen

Guy is a relic of a different age - Stone Age if you may

Time for a modern leader and lover of the game of hockey to step up and take over...
I don't get what you're saying with the bold part... was that just a typo? You said "You can't compare styles of hockey on entertainment value", and then proceed to say Torts' style of hockey sucks because its boring. Am I missing something?

---

But to address the bulk of your post:

There is one major difference... Renney's Rangers pretty much plateau'd and only went downhill during his tenure, were spinning their wheels competing for the 5-8 playoff seed every year, and ultimately fell off a cliff right before he was fired. Torts' tenure on the other hand has had a pretty distinctive upward trend (ignoring this season). This season has been bad - and the last 10 might resemble something similar to what Renney had before he was let go - but I just can't justify dumping a coach who helped the team get to the ECF last year and has slowly improved the team in his tenure here. If the team continues to play like crap next season, that changes things in my mind, as the downward trend would have carried over and continued; and at that point other options should be explored.

Renney's full seasons here:

05-06: 44-26-12; 100 pts.
06-07: 42-30-10; 94 pts.
07-08: 42-27-13; 97 pts.
08-09: 31-22-7; 69 pts (10 games prior to him being fired were 2-5-3)

That has all the signs of a downward trend/plateauing team.


Torts' full seasons here:

09-10: 38-33-11; 87 pts
10-11: 44-33-5; 93 pts
11-12: 51-24-7; 109 pts.

Pretty distinctive upward swing. Context is everything.

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04-01-2013, 04:56 PM
  #758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
I don't get what you're saying with the bold part... was that just a typo? You said "You can't compare styles of hockey on entertainment value", and then proceed to say Torts' style of hockey sucks because its boring. Am I missing something?

---

But to address the bulk of your post:

There is one major difference... Renney's Rangers pretty much plateau'd and only went downhill during his tenure, were spinning their wheels competing for the 5-8 playoff seed every year, and ultimately fell off a cliff right before he was fired. Torts' tenure on the other hand has had a pretty distinctive upward trend (ignoring this season). This season has been bad - and the last 10 might resemble something similar to what Renney had before he was let go - but I just can't justify dumping a coach who helped the team get to the ECF last year and has slowly improved the team in his tenure here. If the team continues to play like crap next season, that changes things in my mind, as the downward trend would have carried over and continued; and at that point other options should be explored.

Renney's full seasons here:

05-06: 44-26-12; 100 pts.
06-07: 42-30-10; 94 pts.
07-08: 42-27-13; 97 pts.
08-09: 31-22-7; 69 pts (10 games prior to him being fired were 2-5-3)

That has all the signs of a downward trend/plateauing team.


Torts' full seasons here:

09-10: 38-33-11; 87 pts
10-11: 44-33-5; 93 pts
11-12: 51-24-7; 109 pts.

Pretty distinctive upward swing. Context is everything.
Did not get past the part "ignoring this season". Huh??

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Old
04-01-2013, 04:58 PM
  #759
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Did not get past the part "ignoring this season". Huh??
This perfectly normal 82 game season with a full training camp to get this squad, consisting of massive roster turnover, into shape and acclimated.

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04-01-2013, 05:14 PM
  #760
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Mathematically it is like this:
Tom Renney
05-06 1,22 PPG
06-07 1,15 PPG
07-08 1,18 PPG
08-09 1,15 PPG

Under Tortorella
09-10 1,06 PPG
10-11 1,13 PPG
11-12 1,30 PPG
2013 1,03 PPG

This is not the clear scenario you are trying to paint up
Similar numbers will bring the same end result
By far the worst result is this years - no?
Last year seems to be a fortunate fluke of some sorts.
Our goalkeeper also happened to win a Vezina trophy that year. Might have something to do with it?
Do the math!
Renney had to go, I agreed with that firing
But this one based on the same predicament should be even more obvious, if we lose tonight we are playing .500 hockey. Totally unacceptable IMO.


Last edited by BBKers: 04-01-2013 at 05:20 PM.
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Old
04-01-2013, 05:23 PM
  #761
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
This perfectly normal 82 game season with a full training camp to get this squad, consisting of massive roster turnover, into shape and acclimated.
So this season, albeit shortened, does not count? Maybe I should cancel my Center Ice package then because it is apparently irrelevant. Other teams success also should then be ignored? Thank goodness Pittsburgs victories are simply fluff...

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Old
04-01-2013, 08:19 PM
  #762
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Honestly, though, as bad as the system can be... if Gaborik and Richards didn't suck turds, this team would be in a much much better spot right now.

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04-01-2013, 08:35 PM
  #763
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So they call Kreider up and give him 3 minutes tonight. Did he get hurt? Ridiculous.

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04-01-2013, 08:41 PM
  #764
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So they call Kreider up and give him 3 minutes tonight. Did he get hurt? Ridiculous.
He stinks away from the puck. Miller has stunk too.

These guys should be in the NHL, but they need bodies at this point.

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04-01-2013, 08:54 PM
  #765
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Counting shootout wins as ties, the Rangers are now 14-15-6.

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04-01-2013, 09:01 PM
  #766
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
He stinks away from the puck. Miller has stunk too.

These guys should be in the NHL, but they need bodies at this point.
He made a defensive play in the first to stick check an open man who had the puck right at his feet and hank out of position. Unfortunately msg didn't highlight it. I thought he played well enough to warrant more than three minutes of ice time.

Also that is a lame excuse. 5 shifts all in the first period does not help provide bodies. Plus both asham and gilroy were scratched. They both could have provided the bodies the rangers need.

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04-01-2013, 09:21 PM
  #767
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
He stinks away from the puck. Miller has stunk too.

These guys should be in the NHL, but they need bodies at this point.
They stink away from the puck? Thanks torts. Did u adopt a dog from the coach? I was at the game tonight. No one was more out of position tonight than Boyle and he got rewarded with a ton of ice time. The coach is a clown. Tonight we won in spite of him.

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04-02-2013, 10:06 AM
  #768
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Torts haters sure do pick their spots to *****.

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04-02-2013, 10:38 AM
  #769
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Torts haters sure do pick their spots to *****.
What does that even mean?

Is it not fair to criticize him for playing a top prospect only three minutes when he could be playing 20 and actually getting some confidence and development in the minors?

Torts supporters love to cry that this thread is only active after a loss and that no one criticizes him after a win. So now he gets criticized after a loss and it is called *****ing.

Talk about picking your spots.

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04-02-2013, 10:40 AM
  #770
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
They stink away from the puck? Thanks torts. Did u adopt a dog from the coach? I was at the game tonight. No one was more out of position tonight than Boyle and he got rewarded with a ton of ice time. The coach is a clown. Tonight we won in spite of him.
Youve already proven you dont care and/or dont understand the defensive side of the puck. So, why should anyone around here value your opinion at all?

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04-02-2013, 10:42 AM
  #771
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Originally Posted by truebluegoalie View Post
What does that even mean?

Is it not fair to criticize him for playing a top prospect only three minutes when he could be playing 20 and actually getting some confidence and development in the minors?

Torts supporters love to cry that this thread is only active after a loss and that no one criticizes him after a win. So now he gets criticized after a loss and it is called *****ing.

Talk about picking your spots.
I think its a pretty safe bet that Torts didnt ask for Kreider to come up again in the first place.

Are you insinuating he requested Kreider to come up, and then is purposely only playing him 3 minutes? Maybe you can get Oliver Stone to write this screenplay.

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04-02-2013, 10:48 AM
  #772
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Is it not fair to criticize him for playing a top prospect only three minutes when he could be playing 20 and actually getting some confidence and development in the minors?
It's not as if Tortorella dressed him with intent on playing him only three minutes. Look at Kreider's game logs this season. It's right here. He's getting between 10 and 15 minutes a game. When he rode the pine in late February, the team sent him down shortly after to get more ice-time. They're conscientious about this stuff. Plenty of valid criticisms for Torts, but playing a top prospect only three minutes in one game is not one of them.

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04-02-2013, 01:36 PM
  #773
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The two posts I quote below are the epitome of blind Torts hating rage; and why a rational discussion about the problems of this team - and, yes, even of Torts' own problems - can't be had.

Any good performances or results are definitively, without question, happening despite him being the coach. He deserves zero credit for the things this team does well, when we win games, when things go well, or for the ECF appearance last year. But when **** hits the fan, suddenly all of the problems of this team can be laid at his feet. Talk about a double standard.

And then when confronted with an alternative perspective, or even just some context for the arguments you guys try to make, you decide to stop reading and ignore the points being made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
They stink away from the puck? Thanks torts. Did u adopt a dog from the coach? I was at the game tonight. No one was more out of position tonight than Boyle and he got rewarded with a ton of ice time. The coach is a clown. Tonight we won in spite of him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Did not get past the part "ignoring this season". Huh??
But to respond to BBKers -- I figured you could connect the dots from the past two posts I made to why I choose to "ignore" this season in my thinking (poor phrasing on my part; more like 'overlook for now') - but I guess that is too much to ask if you're not going to actually read the post. I'll lay it out real simply:

- At best, during Renney's tenure, you could argue that the team had plateau'd and was going neither up nor down, but perennially a 5-8 seed playoff team.
- A more accurate description of Renney's tenure - in my mind - is that the team actually had a downward trend (in that they were slowly performing slightly worse and spinning their wheels as his time here went on - not just in his last 10-20 games).
- But however you look at it, Renney never had to deal with a lockout shortened season, and certainly didn't have to deal with the challenges that creates in the season he was fired.
- Tortorella's tenure started rocky, but has seen a distinctive upward trend until this year (~30 games).
- Tortorella's Rangers actually achieved something significant in getting to the ECF for the first time in about 15 years (whether you want to discount this or not, or say they did this despite him, the fact is it happened and it is applicable in the discussion).
- All teams have bad stretches that last as long as 30+ games. Even some of the best teams. Even teams with coaches that many here have suggested as replacements for Torts. I gave examples of this from last season with the top 4 teams in the East outside of the Rangers (all arguably worse stretches than what the Rangers are currently dealing with). Those coaches didn't suddenly get thrown out the door (nor was it really considered), and neither should Torts. The issue - and part of the reason the Rangers' struggles are being magnified by people this year - is that in a lockout shortened season, a bad stretch like that has an exaggerated impact on the season and standings compared to an 82-game schedule.
- Lastly, I'm choosing to overlook this season because of the external/whacky factors that come into play in a lockout shortened season (I elaborate on them below). I'm not saying the games mean nothing, or that other teams don't have to deal with the same issues - just that I can recognize how these things might impact this teams' play. And I'm willing to give Torts a second chance to start next season (though I'm not writing off this season yet).

But by all means, claim that I'm trying to paint a clear, black and white picture when it is in fact the opposite that is true. I've acknowledged the man has shortcomings, but said I think it isn't yet time to fire him. I've acknowledged that if the crap play continues 20-30 games into next year that I could be convinced that it is time to explore other options (as it would indicate that, without extenuating circumstances, the crap play carried over and continued). You and the majority of the Torts hater contingent on these boards, however, are the ones not looking at the context of the #s you're throwing out there comparing Torts and Renney. You guys are the ones not looking at the context of this bad stretch of games. You're the ones ignoring the lack of a training camp. You're the ones ignoring the massive roster turnover. You're the ones ignoring that our two top players are not playing like our two top players. And you're the ones screaming - verging on hysterics after any loss - that Torts and his "stoneage" hockey need to be kicked out on their ass literally every chance you get. But yea, I'm the one trying to paint a clear, black and white picture with no in-between.

----

Of the 15 teams ahead of the Rangers in league-wide standings, the only two that could be considered to have had as much roster turnover as them are Montreal and Minnesota -- both of which didn't actually lose significant pieces, they just brought in upgrades. The only other teams to lose significant roster players were NJD and Detroit, both of whom only made small roster changes by bringing in a few pieces. By comparison, the Rangers lost 6 players (depending upon your perspective 4-5 significant pieces in Dubi, Anisimov, Prust, Feds, Rupp, Mitchell), and brought in 8 new ones (Nash, Asham, Halpern, Powe, Pyatt, Hamrlik, Kreider, Miller). That is almost half the roster for which Torts needed to determine their roles and places in the lineup, who needed to be taught a new system, and who needed to mesh with their fellow teammates. And we're really surprised when none of those things happens very quickly?


I'd hoped (misguidedly) that a rational discussion could be had. It is pretty obvious that isn't the case. So, what is the point of even trying to have a discussion? I'm done with this thread after this post; and I should have made that decision a lot sooner.


Last edited by Richter Scale: 04-02-2013 at 01:43 PM.
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Old
04-02-2013, 01:59 PM
  #774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Mathematically it is like this:
Tom Renney
05-06 1,22 PPG
06-07 1,15 PPG
07-08 1,18 PPG
08-09 1,15 PPG

Under Tortorella
09-10 1,06 PPG
10-11 1,13 PPG
11-12 1,30 PPG
2013 1,03 PPG

This is not the clear scenario you are trying to paint up
Similar numbers will bring the same end result
By far the worst result is this years - no?
Last year seems to be a fortunate fluke of some sorts.
Our goalkeeper also happened to win a Vezina trophy that year. Might have something to do with it?
Do the math!
Renney had to go, I agreed with that firing
But this one based on the same predicament should be even more obvious, if we lose tonight we are playing .500 hockey. Totally unacceptable IMO.

I really like your posts, they make sense both based on what we see and the stats behind them.

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04-02-2013, 09:18 PM
  #775
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Torts haters sure do pick their spots to *****.
So do the fanboys.

Both sides of the equation are getting equally annoying.

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