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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

So why is Makarov not in the HHOF?

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Old
04-01-2013, 04:11 PM
  #101
Zine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I really don't think the KHL is relevant in these discussions. I mean, we're using Evander Kane as an example here. Let's face one thing here, when the NHLers play overseas they are doing it solely for purposes to keep in game shape. I think it's wrong personally for them to go over there but we don't have to worry about this crap for another 10 years so who cares? But are you really focused on your team and your game when you have one ear to the ground waiting for your NHLPA to pen a deal? You aren't giving near 100% regardless of what you say.

As for Makarov, he was 31 in 1989, which I consider, but he was there for good. He wasn't going back to Russia. He could focus 100% on the NHL and not look back. So I think after a season or so you'd think a player should start to be aware of their surroundings. It also was Makarov's best season, so I think the transition for him was pretty good.

Not as easy as "they should be aware of their surroundings after the first year". Just look at Krutov.

Because of the trials and tribulations of people like Makarov, the NHL has learned the proper way to help ease the transition and integrate players. Guys like Makarov, Priakhin, Krutov, Larionov were the test cases. When discussing Makarov, we must remember the hockey world of 1989...it was vastly different than the one of today.


Last edited by Zine: 04-01-2013 at 04:16 PM.
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04-01-2013, 04:14 PM
  #102
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Adapting

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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Soviet Union is quite different from Russia of today....and a universe away of from the West.

To downgrade the very first wave of Soviet 'pioneers' because they had difficulties adjusting or integrating is crazy. The fact that a run-down Makarov could step right into the NHL shows outstanding ability and perseverance.

One could only imagine an over-the-hill Messier, Esposito or Lafleur trying to adjust to Soviet life and Soviet hockey. Tikhonov would have destroyed them.
I would have loved to then heard N.A.'s reactions to Soviets then saying "Messier and LaFleur at Makarov level? Those guys didn't have the hockey ability to integrate and adapt....and they were only as good as Gerasimov!!".
Yet when given the opportunity, Canadians have adapted well to the former Soviet Union countries - Russia, Ukraine, etc as hockey players:

http://www.quanthockey.com/khl/natio...eer-stats.html

Just as others have adapted at the academic, cultural, business and social levels. Plenty of headhunter companies recruiting for contract opportunities. Most work very well, some do not.

The reciprocal is also true. Plenty of successful immigrants from the former Soviet Union in NA in the academic, cultural, social and business spheres.

Point is that some organizations in various countries are not suited for such experiments nor are some individuals suited for such life experiences.

Prime example would be Guy Lafleur who never fully integrated the Canadiens. He was tolerated and no one cried when he left.

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04-01-2013, 04:30 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Yet when given the opportunity, Canadians have adapted well to the former Soviet Union countries - Russia, Ukraine, etc as hockey players:

http://www.quanthockey.com/khl/natio...eer-stats.html
Of course......but that's 15-20 years after the fact. It's a vastly different scenario than the Soviet Union.


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Point is that some organizations in various countries are not suited for such experiments nor are some individuals suited for such life experiences.
Again correct. See my response to Big Phil

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04-01-2013, 05:38 PM
  #104
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No one cried when he left?His teamates said Lafleur was the best ever next to Lemiex Bowman says Lafleur was the best player he ever coached.During Bowman's years Lafleur was the hardest worker in practice and Lafleur and Gainey were the best conditioned players on the team.No athlete is more Loved in Quebec and Beliveau is not even close.He just received the highest military honour in quebec for non-soldiers for his work with Canadian soldiers.And he has done fine in terms of wealth.He has a 60ft yact a helicoptor tour company and just sold his restarant for 5 million dollars.So children do more research before you open your mouths

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04-01-2013, 07:32 PM
  #105
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I think we kinda strayed away from the topic in question. Again, nobody is saying Makarov had a stellar NHL career. He was very good, but not a superstar. So let's concentrate on other things, shall we? Anybody wants to make a case for Lafleur?

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04-01-2013, 11:45 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Prime example would be Guy Lafleur who never fully integrated the Canadiens. He was tolerated and no one cried when he left.
Many cried when he left, but not as much if he had left a couple years earlier. I think part of your observation is right. Lafleur did not integrate well into the mid 80's Canadiens. He was not suited for a reduced role nor would he tolerate 3rd line, 12 minutes a game. I think he was unrealistic too, in thinking that he still had the ability to be number one. 1982 was his last good year. He still had some skills left, but the team philosophy changed a lot especially when Lemaire took over (however, he had 30 goals by March 84 and then none after Lemaire came. Still a pretty good season, but on a very weak defensive team). He could no longer be the star because he wasn't producing enough and those teams were designed because of the lack of offensive stars in Montreal. On the other hand, Lafleur was also made the scapegoat by Lemaire. Lafleur was instrumental in his own demise to a degree, but he didn't deserve what Lemaire did to him. Lemaire embarrassed him.

Sometimes we leave the way we enter. Lafleur entered the NHL with perhaps the highest expectations of any draft pick in history and became a disappointment until he found his game. He left the Canadiens with high expectations and a disappointment largely because of age, his lifestyle and occasional stupid behavior.

Lafleur and the Canadiens would have been better off had he been traded. To what team, I don't know. Edmonton would have had a hard time giving him what he wanted because of all their young talented players. Maybe the Islanders, but they had a lot of depth still in 84 so same scenario. Quebec was out of the question. Maybe Calgary or Chicago who were middle of the pack contenders at the time?

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11-29-2014, 01:06 PM
  #107
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Sergei Makarov

I know this has been discussed to death, but I find it utterly outrageous that he hasn't been inducted to the HOF. I'm certainly no expert on Russian hockey pre-1990, but good god-

Calder Trophy (1990)
Olympic Gold Medal (1984 & 1988) The Soviet Union
MVP Soviet League (1980, 1985, 1989)
Izvestia Trophy (Soviet League Leading Scorer) (1980, 1981, 1982, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989)

I feel like there is a span of 6 or 7 years where you could make a realistic argument for him being the second best player in the world. Im not going to bring up the whole "he is better than X and X is in" because I think that argument makes no sense, but how has this guy been ignored for a decade?

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11-29-2014, 02:09 PM
  #108
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It's frankly outrageous and brings the whole institution into disrepute.

He was probably the 2nd-best forward in the world through most of the 1980s and the best forward on some of the most important teams of the decade.

If there was only 40 players in the HHOF he should be there. That he isn't one of 260 guys there is a joke.

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11-29-2014, 03:08 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
It's frankly outrageous and brings the whole institution into disrepute.

He was probably the 2nd-best forward in the world through most of the 1980s and the best forward on some of the most important teams of the decade.

If there was only 40 players in the HHOF he should be there. That he isn't one of 260 guys there is a joke.
Couldnt have said it better myself

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11-29-2014, 03:27 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
It's frankly outrageous and brings the whole institution into disrepute.

He was probably the 2nd-best forward in the world through most of the 1980s and the best forward on some of the most important teams of the decade.

If there was only 40 players in the HHOF he should be there. That he isn't one of 260 guys there is a joke.
This!

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11-29-2014, 04:51 PM
  #111
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I'm not sure why everybody assumes he was better than anybody minus Gretzky.

He never showed any sort of dominance in the NHL. Yes, he joined in at a rather advanced age, but even if you were to project his output in his prime, there's no reason to believe he would have been more dominant than say, Peter Stastny, Dale Hawerchuk or Denis Savard. If anything, I believe that's probably the best case scenario for him. People make it sound like he'd average 150 points per season.

A lot of what-ifs. A lot of ex-USSR players are rather overrated, so I'm not exactly shocked, though.

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11-29-2014, 05:01 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
I'm not sure why everybody assumes he was better than anybody minus Gretzky.

He never showed any sort of dominance in the NHL. Yes, he joined in at a rather advanced age, but even if you were to project his output in his prime, there's no reason to believe he would have been more dominant than say, Peter Stastny, Dale Hawerchuk or Denis Savard. If anything, I believe that's probably the best case scenario for him. People make it sound like he'd average 150 points per season.

A lot of what-ifs. A lot of ex-USSR players are rather overrated, so I'm not exactly shocked, though.
Wo said he would average 150 points a season? Straw man argument..

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11-29-2014, 05:11 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Wo said he would average 150 points a season? Straw man argument..
Well, if we're to assume that he's a notch above the Stastny/Savard/Hawerchuks, that's what I would expect from him.

All of the above players had multiple 120+ points seasons.

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11-29-2014, 05:19 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
Well, if we're to assume that he's a notch above the Stastny/Savard/Hawerchuks, that's what I would expect from him.

All of the above players had multiple 120+ points seasons.
I know multiple is technically just more than one but it sounds like its a lot. They all had a couple of spike seasons like that.

Now to the point of him being the second best player in the world at the time, its agruable of course. I do think that he was definitly in the top-5 and the primary point of the thread is that he belongs in the HHoF and its a travesty that hes not. Do you disagree with that too?

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11-29-2014, 06:33 PM
  #115
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Whats outrageous is HF's opinion that he was the second best player in the world in the 80's and the 6th best winger of all time. That defines outrageous.

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11-29-2014, 06:35 PM
  #116
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If Peter Stastny had not played in the NHL in his prime years, people would be doubting him too.

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11-29-2014, 06:35 PM
  #117
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I don't think there is anyone in this section who disagrees that Makarov should be in..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
I'm not sure why everybody assumes he was better than anybody minus Gretzky.

He never showed any sort of dominance in the NHL. Yes, he joined in at a rather advanced age, but even if you were to project his output in his prime, there's no reason to believe he would have been more dominant than say, Peter Stastny, Dale Hawerchuk or Denis Savard. If anything, I believe that's probably the best case scenario for him. People make it sound like he'd average 150 points per season.

A lot of what-ifs. A lot of ex-USSR players are rather overrated, so I'm not exactly shocked, though.
They are all in the Hall, so even if you think Makarov would be around their level, he should be in..

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11-29-2014, 06:42 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
I'm not sure why everybody assumes he was better than anybody minus Gretzky.

He never showed any sort of dominance in the NHL. Yes, he joined in at a rather advanced age, but even if you were to project his output in his prime, there's no reason to believe he would have been more dominant than say, Peter Stastny, Dale Hawerchuk or Denis Savard. If anything, I believe that's probably the best case scenario for him. People make it sound like he'd average 150 points per season.

A lot of what-ifs. A lot of ex-USSR players are rather overrated, so I'm not exactly shocked, though.
Not that its the be-all end all, but Makarov was a lot better than Stastny and Kurri at similar ages before they joined the NHL.

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11-29-2014, 07:02 PM
  #119
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Player's I remember as being said to be the "2nd" best or maybe the 2nd best... In the 1980's. In roughly chronological order. (I guess the later part of the 80's... It was best except 66,99 after about 1987/88 year)

Trottier, Dionne, Bossy, Fetisov, Makarov, Coffey, Messier, Bourque, Mario, Yzerman.

Those are the kinds of names Makarov was mentioned with in his prime. I kind of think he was just a superstar like Sakic/Yzerman/Statsny but I can't know. Either way he should be a first ballot, no-brainer HHOFer.

He should be in and Lindros too. If people talk of you being the best player in the world, or top 3... For many years. You need to get in.

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11-29-2014, 07:06 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
I'm not sure why everybody assumes he was better than anybody minus Gretzky.

He never showed any sort of dominance in the NHL. Yes, he joined in at a rather advanced age, but even if you were to project his output in his prime, there's no reason to believe he would have been more dominant than say, Peter Stastny, Dale Hawerchuk or Denis Savard. If anything, I believe that's probably the best case scenario for him. People make it sound like he'd average 150 points per season.

A lot of what-ifs. A lot of ex-USSR players are rather overrated, so I'm not exactly shocked, though.
Lets take a look at Makarovs first 3 years in the NHL and how he compares to Hawerchuck, Savard and Stastny in that time frame. Remember that Makarov had to adjust to a new league and lifestyle at the age of 31+ while the others had played in the league for years and in the case of Savard and especially Hawerchuck was clearly younger.

89/90 - 91/92
Dale Hawerchuck 236 gp, 80 g, 188 a, 268 pts 1.14 PPG (Age 26-28)
Sergei Makarov 226 gp, 76 g, 159 a, 235 pts 1.04 PPG (Age 31-33)
Denis Savard 207 gp, 83 g, 126 a, 209 pts 1.01 PPG (Age 28-30)
Peter Stastny 217 gp, 71 g, 124 a, 195 pts 0.90 PPG (Age 33-35)

Despite having to adjust to a new league at an advanced age Makarov was almost keeping pace with the 5 years younger Hawerchuck and scored at a slightly higher pace than the 3 years younger Savard. So I dont see much of a reason to doubt that Makarov would have been able to outscore them with a clear margin if he would have been able to come over and adjust to the NHL in his early 20s.

We also know that Peter Stastny failed to dominate the scoring race in the Czechoslovakian league despite playing there until he was 23 years old. And at the age of 23 Makarov had already won 3 scoring titles in the Soviet League. So no the level of Stastny/Savard/Hawerchuck was clearly not Makarovs ceiling as a NHL player.


Last edited by Batis: 11-29-2014 at 07:18 PM.
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Old
11-29-2014, 07:07 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I know multiple is technically just more than one but it sounds like its a lot. They all had a couple of spike seasons like that.

Now to the point of him being the second best player in the world at the time, its agruable of course. I do think that he was definitly in the top-5 and the primary point of the thread is that he belongs in the HHoF and its a travesty that hes not. Do you disagree with that too?
No, he is def. Hall worthy. He was clearly the superior player on the KLM line. I'm still not sure why Larionov made it, but Makarov deserves it more than he does.

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11-29-2014, 07:40 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
I'm not sure why everybody assumes he was better than anybody minus Gretzky.

He never showed any sort of dominance in the NHL. Yes, he joined in at a rather advanced age, but even if you were to project his output in his prime, there's no reason to believe he would have been more dominant than say, Peter Stastny, Dale Hawerchuk or Denis Savard. If anything, I believe that's probably the best case scenario for him. People make it sound like he'd average 150 points per season.

A lot of what-ifs. A lot of ex-USSR players are rather overrated, so I'm not exactly shocked, though.
Almost nobody in that era showed elite offense past age 31, which is when Makarov joined the NHL.

Want to know the total combined 100-point seasons past age 31 for Hawerchuk, Kurri, Trottier, Goulet, Stastny, Savard, Federko, Ciccarelli, Anderson, Perreault, Sittler, Lafleur, Clarke, Gartner, and Bossy?

0.

The only 1980s scoring stars to continue scoring at a high level in their 30s were Gretzky, Messier, and Francis, and Francis only because he got to play on the same PP as Lemieux and Jagr.

But you hear this 'he didn't dominate in the NHL' garbage about Makarov, which is nothing but him being held to a higher standard than every other forward from his era they've inducted.

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11-29-2014, 11:39 PM
  #123
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Soviet Bias!

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11-30-2014, 08:37 AM
  #124
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Its the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the NHL Hall of Fame. Makarov belongs there every day and Sunday.

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11-30-2014, 08:43 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Whats outrageous is HF's opinion that he was the second best player in the world in the 80's and the 6th best winger of all time. That defines outrageous.
Could you elaborate why?

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