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Old
04-01-2013, 11:02 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Say the Wings traded Quincey + 1st + Paterson or McCollum for Bouwmeester...

You don't see the massive improvement there?

I thought Bouwmeester would cost a first + Nyquist and a roster player like White or Quincey.


I personally think Bouwmeester is better than any defenseman on our roster.

At the very least, he's comparable to Kronwall.


Which is MILES ahead of Kyle Clueless.

So if you make that deal ...
Kronwall Ericsson
Bouwmeester Kindl
Colaiacovo Dekeyser/Smith
White

Now you can turn around and ship Nyquist + Cleary + White or Lashoff for Gabroik.


Now, i don't know, because you never answered the question ... but do you want the team to get better this year? If not, do you support selling off assets?

Or, are you just waiting around to support whatever Ken Holland does or doesn't do?
I think the trade you proposed would make the team marginally better this season buy would be worse for the team in the long run. Bouwmeester would give the Wings 2nd pairing a big boost offensively both at even strength and on the PP but he'd provide just as big of a boost for our opposition.

I personally think Bouwmeester would be one of the worst defensively even on our mediocre defence. The guy is also as overpaid as they come, which would likely cost us one of Howard, Brunner, or Flip this offseason.

I was all for selling some of our added depth to make room for prospects especially when Pittsburgh seemingly raised the price for all defence with the Murray trade.
I thought we could have gotten something good for White, and hopefully could have unloaded some of our extra bottom 6 forwards as well.

Now that Feaster has lowered the prices, its not as good of a market to sell in and i'm fairly indifferent as far as trades go. Mostly I just want to see room made for Tatar to be back up in the NHL.

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:03 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I am all for selling.

Unfortunately the garbage man (Ken Holland) refuses to take out the trash.
hahaha "the garbage man" hahaha love it

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:08 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
I think the trade you proposed would make the team marginally better this season buy would be worse for the team in the long run. Bouwmeester would give the Wings 2nd pairing a big boost offensively both at even strength and on the PP but he'd provide just as big of a boost for our opposition.

I personally think Bouwmeester would be one of the worst defensively even on our mediocre defence. The guy is also as overpaid as they come, which would likely cost us one of Howard, Brunner, or Flip this offseason.

I was all for selling some of our added depth to make room for prospects especially when Pittsburgh seemingly raised the price for all defence with the Murray trade.
I thought we could have gotten something good for White, and hopefully could have unloaded some of our extra bottom 6 forwards as well.

Now that Feaster has lowered the prices, its not as good of a market to sell in and i'm fairly indifferent as far as trades go. Mostly I just want to see room made for Tatar to be back up in the NHL.
Just because Feaster traded cheap, I don't think that means the bottom has fallen out of the trade market. If anything, there's even less supply to possibly meet demand now. Of course, I wouldn't mind moving White (or KQ), either, so maybe it's more hope than reality on my part.

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:11 PM
  #79
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Very happy we dodged this bullet. Would have been a marginal upgrade with an expensive price.

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:13 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
What kind of crazy cap free world do you live in? [/YT]

.
Math, man. Even if you can't do it, Capgeek can.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($2.250m)
Gustav Nyquist ($1.188m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m)
Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) / Joakim Andersson ($1.005m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Riley Sheahan ($0.900m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Jay Bouwmeester ($6.680m) / Jakub Kindl ($1.550m)
Brendan Smith ($1.527m) / Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
Jimmy Howard ($4.800m)
OTHER
Buyout: Mikael Samuelsson ($0.000m)
Buyout: Todd Bertuzzi ($0.000m)
Buyout: Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.000m)
RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (0.059% of upper limit)
Kyle Quincey ($0.038m—1.0%)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,148,337; BONUSES: $1,170,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $1,321,663

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:13 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
I would like to see the people who were opposed to Bouwmeester tell us what they think Holland's strategy should be for the rest of this season....

To me, you're a buyer or a seller.

Holland needs to be decisive.

If you're not buying, get out there and sell your Clearys and Millers and Eaves and Quinceys and Colaiacovos and maybe even Filppula.

Don't sit on the fence and let veterans rob another year of prospect development in exchange for a first round loss.

So go out and get Gaborik and Robidas and go for it.

Or sell.
The funny thing is if Holland had traded for Bouwmeester you'd be all over the trade thread claiming that it was a horrific move, that he should have went after "Insert players name here" and that he's sold the future while still leaving us with a team that has no chance to win. You like to argue and you're good at it so you always seem to take the contrarian stance regardless of topic.

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04-01-2013, 11:15 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
I think the trade you proposed would make the team marginally better this season buy would be worse for the team in the long run. Bouwmeester would give the Wings 2nd pairing a big boost offensively both at even strength and on the PP but he'd provide just as big of a boost for our opposition.

I personally think Bouwmeester would be one of the worst defensively even on our mediocre defence. The guy is also as overpaid as they come, which would likely cost us one of Howard, Brunner, or Flip this offseason.

I was all for selling some of our added depth to make room for prospects especially when Pittsburgh seemingly raised the price for all defence with the Murray trade.
I thought we could have gotten something good for White, and hopefully could have unloaded some of our extra bottom 6 forwards as well.

Now that Feaster has lowered the prices, its not as good of a market to sell in and i'm fairly indifferent as far as trades go. Mostly I just want to see room made for Tatar to be back up in the NHL.
Ah, well, we just fundamentally disagree on how good Bouwmeester is.

If you look around, the prices vary.

Some teams get good value, some teams get hosted.

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:15 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Say the Wings traded Quincey + 1st + Paterson or McCollum for Bouwmeester...

You don't see the massive improvement there?

I thought Bouwmeester would cost a first + Nyquist and a roster player like White or Quincey.


I personally think Bouwmeester is better than any defenseman on our roster.

At the very least, he's comparable to Kronwall.


Which is MILES ahead of Kyle Clueless.

So if you make that deal ...
Kronwall Ericsson
Bouwmeester Kindl
Colaiacovo Dekeyser/Smith
White

Now you can turn around and ship Nyquist + Cleary + White or Lashoff for Gabroik.


Now, i don't know, because you never answered the question ... but do you want the team to get better this year? If not, do you support selling off assets?

Or, are you just waiting around to support whatever Ken Holland does or doesn't do?
That deal helps the team, but there would be plenty of people on this forum whining about "basically" trading 3 first round picks for J-Bouw.

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:16 PM
  #84
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You guys should keep talking about the Quincey trade, that's extremely relevant.

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:18 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
The funny thing is if Holland had traded for Bouwmeester you'd be all over the trade thread claiming that it was a horrific move, that he should have went after "Insert players name here" and that he's sold the future while still leaving us with a team that has no chance to win. You like to argue and you're good at it so you always seem to take the contrarian stance regardless of topic.
No, I wouldn't/

It depends on what the deal is.

If Holland went all in, I'd be for it.

If he said "**** it" and sold off the UFAs and let the kids, play, I'm for it.

I'm not for or against Holland's moves as of this moment.

But I am against the general "holding pattern" that we've seen out of Holland the last 3 years ...

Don't make moves to make the team a contender, while getting older and worse, and not giving the kids their chance to get the experience they need.

I'm for Holland standing up and making a choice.

If Wednesday comes and he's let indecisiveness make his decision for him, I'll be pissed.

The only people who I'm a contrarian to are the people who defend every move Holland makes.

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:19 PM
  #86
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Good deal for St. Louis. Most of their core players are young, they still have plenty of forward prospects, and their biggest need was a LD to play with Pietrangelo. I can't imagine them getting a better return without harming their roster in other ways. If this does not mess up their budget going forward (not a cap team, RFA deals for Petro and Shatty needed) this is a clear win.

I would have been ok with making a similar deal for our team, but not overly thrilled. Our team's best players are older, and we just traded our first round pick last year. Adding another LHD without moving people out or adding an impact forward doesn't change our status as first round fodder. It also could compound issues for next year's cap. Meh.

I do think this means that Holland is basically standing pat at the trade deadline.

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04-01-2013, 11:22 PM
  #87
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Boumeester's cap his $7 million per year? That's pretty steep for a guy that never put it together. I'm glad Holland didn't give up a 2013 1st rounder, I would imagine a lot of angry fans would want Holland's head on a platter for MISSING ONE OF THESE PLAYERS on draft day. This is the deepest draft since when?

I'd rather the 2013 1st rounder. Chances are we'll draft someone better than jBo

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04-01-2013, 11:27 PM
  #88
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Boumeester's cap his $7 million per year? That's pretty steep for a guy that never put it together. I'm glad Holland didn't give up a 2013 1st rounder, I would imagine a lot of angry fans would want Holland's head on a platter for MISSING ONE OF THESE PLAYERS on draft day. This is the deepest draft since when?

I'd rather the 2013 1st rounder. Chances are we'll draft someone better than jBo
No, not very likely. Sorry.

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04-01-2013, 11:34 PM
  #89
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We spent a 1st on Kindl 8 years ago and he's a #6 who got absolutely abused tonight.
We spent a 1st on Quincey who has been garbage since he's been here.

But Bouwmeester isn't worth a 1st?

A guy who has put up three 40+ seasons (Kronner has a single 40+ point season)?
A guy who played top pairing mins on two top 10 GAA teams in FLA and CGY?

Good for St Louis. They fleeced Colorado in trading Erik Johnson for Kevin Shattenkirk.
Now they fleeced Calgary for Bouwmeester.

You're crazy if you don't think Bouwmeester is worth what St Louis paid to acquire him. Holland was asleep at the wheel as per usual. Don't forget our firsts are more likely to be Jakub Kindl or Thomas McCollum.

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04-01-2013, 11:37 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
We spent a 1st on Kindl 8 years ago and he's a #6 who got absolutely abused tonight.
We spent a 1st on Quincey who has been garbage since he's been here.

But Bouwmeester isn't worth a 1st?

A guy who has put up three 40+ seasons (Kronner has a single 40+ point season)?
A guy who played top pairing mins on two top 10 GAA teams in FLA and CGY?

Good for St Louis. They fleeced Colorado in trading Erik Johnson for Kevin Shattenkirk.
Now they fleeced Calgary for Bouwmeester.

You're crazy if you don't think Bouwmeester is worth what St Louis paid to acquire him. Holland was asleep at the wheel as per usual. Don't forget our firsts are more likely to be Jakub Kindl or Thomas McCollum.
I guess that makes me the Holland sympathizer in this thread. His inability to make trades paid off this time.

April Fools!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:41 PM
  #91
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Good.

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:43 PM
  #92
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The flames lost big in two trades within one week. Feaster must be let go, before the flame fizzles. Next it will be kiprusoff for a second round draft pick.

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04-01-2013, 11:44 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
We spent a 1st on Kindl 8 years ago and he's a #6 who got absolutely abused tonight.
We spent a 1st on Quincey who has been garbage since he's been here.

But Bouwmeester isn't worth a 1st?

A guy who has put up three 40+ seasons (Kronner has a single 40+ point season)?
A guy who played top pairing mins on two top 10 GAA teams in FLA and CGY?

Good for St Louis. They fleeced Colorado in trading Erik Johnson for Kevin Shattenkirk.
Now they fleeced Calgary for Bouwmeester.

You're crazy if you don't think Bouwmeester is worth what St Louis paid to acquire him. Holland was asleep at the wheel as per usual. Don't forget our firsts are more likely to be Jakub Kindl or Thomas McCollum.
I don't have a problem with the cost to acquire JBo. I thought I would before the trade happened but the cost to St. Louis in assets was essentially just a 1st round pick.

I have a problem with adding a 7 million dollar defensive liability when we already have several cheaper defensive liabilities on our team.

I do think your comparison between Kronwall and JBo is a bit misleading though since Bouwmeester hasn't topped 40 pts in 5 years and Kronwall has had a better PPG rate than him for the past 7 years. Offensively I think Kronwall is actually better than Bouwmeester now, unless he manages to find the magic he had early in his career.

Regardless though we need guys who play on the right side and who make us better defensively. Bouwmeester fits far better in St Louis where they have an abundance or right side defence, better defensive guys to pair him with and WAY more cap space than we do going forward.

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:45 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
We spent a 1st on Kindl 8 years ago and he's a #6 who got absolutely abused tonight.
We spent a 1st on Quincey who has been garbage since he's been here.

But Bouwmeester isn't worth a 1st?

A guy who has put up three 40+ seasons (Kronner has a single 40+ point season)?
A guy who played top pairing mins on two top 10 GAA teams in FLA and CGY?

Good for St Louis. They fleeced Colorado in trading Erik Johnson for Kevin Shattenkirk.
Now they fleeced Calgary for Bouwmeester.

You're crazy if you don't think Bouwmeester is worth what St Louis paid to acquire him. Holland was asleep at the wheel as per usual. Don't forget our firsts are more likely to be Jakub Kindl or Thomas McCollum.
That's a good take. Not sure I agree with it. Because trading for Bouwmeester only makes sense if you go after another top 6 winger, too, IMO.

But what's funny is you rip about Kindl getting abused tonight when ... first round pick Brendan Smith has a great blunder of a giveaway right up the gut to set up a goal

Agenda much?

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04-01-2013, 11:45 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
We spent a 1st on Kindl 8 years ago and he's a #6 who got absolutely abused tonight.
We spent a 1st on Quincey who has been garbage since he's been here.

But Bouwmeester isn't worth a 1st?

A guy who has put up three 40+ seasons (Kronner has a single 40+ point season)?
A guy who played top pairing mins on two top 10 GAA teams in FLA and CGY?

Good for St Louis. They fleeced Colorado in trading Erik Johnson for Kevin Shattenkirk.
Now they fleeced Calgary for Bouwmeester.

You're crazy if you don't think Bouwmeester is worth what St Louis paid to acquire him. Holland was asleep at the wheel as per usual. Don't forget our firsts are more likely to be Jakub Kindl or Thomas McCollum.
This.

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Old
04-01-2013, 11:45 PM
  #96
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Math, man. Even if you can't do it, Capgeek can.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($2.250m)
Gustav Nyquist ($1.188m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m)
Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) / Joakim Andersson ($1.005m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Riley Sheahan ($0.900m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Jay Bouwmeester ($6.680m) / Jakub Kindl ($1.550m)
Brendan Smith ($1.527m) / Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
Jimmy Howard ($4.800m)
OTHER
Buyout: Mikael Samuelsson ($0.000m)
Buyout: Todd Bertuzzi ($0.000m)
Buyout: Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.000m)
RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (0.059% of upper limit)
Kyle Quincey ($0.038m—1.0%)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,148,337; BONUSES: $1,170,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $1,321,663
Rules buddy, you are using an illegal buyout and having some happy negotiations there.

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04-01-2013, 11:51 PM
  #97
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Regardless though we need guys who play on the right side and who make us better defensively. Bouwmeester fits far better in St Louis where they have an abundance or right side defence, better defensive guys to pair him with and WAY more cap space than we do going forward.
+1

Agree with the bolded.

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04-01-2013, 11:55 PM
  #98
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Good I didn't want him and his massive cap hit anyway.

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04-01-2013, 11:55 PM
  #99
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Bouwmeester is pretty similar in value to Stuart IMO. Doubt that would make enough of a difference to switch this team from "should probably rebuild" to "contender".

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04-01-2013, 11:57 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
I don't have a problem with the cost to acquire JBo. I thought I would before the trade happened but the cost to St. Louis in assets was essentially just a 1st round pick.

I have a problem with adding a 7 million dollar defensive liability when we already have several cheaper defensive liabilities on our team.

I do think your comparison between Kronwall and JBo is a bit misleading though since Bouwmeester hasn't topped 40 pts in 5 years and Kronwall has had a better PPG rate than him for the past 7 years. Offensively I think Kronwall is actually better than Bouwmeester now, unless he manages to find the magic he had early in his career.

Regardless though we need guys who play on the right side and who make us better defensively. Bouwmeester fits far better in St Louis where they have an abundance or right side defence, better defensive guys to pair him with and WAY more cap space than we do going forward.
Hey, I completely respect your opinion but the truth of the matter is that Calgary has been one of the worst offensive teams in the league while the Wings have always been one of the best. So Kronwall has his stats inflated while Bouwmeester has his deflated. The fact remains Bouwmeester has three times as many 40+ point seasons as Kronwall and on a team like Detroit he'd be much more likely to be a 50+ point guy.

We need a top pairing guy and we could have gotten one for only a first round pick. It's really that simple. Kindl (first round pick) ain't anywhere close to being a top pairing guy. Quincey (first round pick) ain't either. Kronwall (first round pick) is looking really, really bad on a top pairing.

I don't care how anyone tries to spin us missing out on Bouwmeester. He was absolutely worth a first and he'd solidify our top pairing until Sproul, Ouellet and Backman are ready for duty. Does anyone think he's going to struggle in St Louis? He'll play top pairing mins alongside Alex Pietrangelo along with big PP mins (only Shattenkirk and Pietrangelo play more than 1 min with the man advantage), in addition to big PK minutes which is an area where the Blues are playing Shattenkirk too much. He's going to thrive in St Louis.

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