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Old
04-01-2013, 11:58 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Bouwmeester is pretty similar in value to Stuart IMO. Doubt that would make enough of a difference to switch this team from "should probably rebuild" to "contender".
How many 40+ point seasons did Brad Stuart have? How often was he on a top pairing?

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04-02-2013, 12:03 AM
  #102
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We spent a 1st on Kindl 8 years ago and he's a #6 who got absolutely abused tonight.
We spent a 1st on Quincey who has been garbage since he's been here.

But Bouwmeester isn't worth a 1st?

A guy who has put up three 40+ seasons (Kronner has a single 40+ point season)?
A guy who played top pairing mins on two top 10 GAA teams in FLA and CGY?

Good for St Louis. They fleeced Colorado in trading Erik Johnson for Kevin Shattenkirk.
Now they fleeced Calgary for Bouwmeester.

You're crazy if you don't think Bouwmeester is worth what St Louis paid to acquire him. Holland was asleep at the wheel as per usual. Don't forget our firsts are more likely to be Jakub Kindl or Thomas McCollum.
Holland was absolutely not asleep at the switch. By all accounts, he was right in the mix and the most recent report suggests it was between St. Louis and Detroit.

If you ask me, reality has finally struck Kenny upside the head. Just a few weeks ago his stance was "Cola, Sammy, and Helm will be our deadline acquisitions" and then just today he comes out saying "depth isn't going to help us - we need top 6 forwards and top 4 defensemen."

I honestly think Holland refused to trade his 1st round pick because he's scared ****less it'll end up being the best pick we've had in years - even better than last years. And he didn't want to make the same mistake twice with a team that is even worse off than it was last year.

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04-02-2013, 12:08 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Holland was absolutely not asleep at the switch. By all accounts, he was right in the mix and the most recent report suggests it was between St. Louis and Detroit.

If you ask me, reality has finally struck Kenny upside the head. Just a few weeks ago his stance was "Cola, Sammy, and Helm will be our deadline acquisitions" and then just today he comes out saying "depth isn't going to help us - we need top 6 forwards and top 4 defensemen."

I honestly think Holland refused to trade his 1st round pick because he's scared ****less it'll end up being the best pick we've had in years - even better than last years. And he didn't want to make the same mistake twice with a team that is even worse off than it was last year.
The Blues fleeced Colorado in trading Erik Johnson for Kevin Shattenkirk. Colorado fleeced Ken Holland - inadvertently - in trading Kyle Quincey to Tampa which Steve Yzerman turned into a first round pick.

Sure, Jay Bouwmeester isn't worth a first round pick. Say it enough to yourself and maybe at some point you'll actually believe that bunk. Holland is scared to do his job. Why are you defending that?

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04-02-2013, 12:09 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Hey, I completely respect your opinion but the truth of the matter is that Calgary has been one of the worst offensive teams in the league while the Wings have always been one of the best. So Kronwall has his stats inflated while Bouwmeester has his deflated. The fact remains Bouwmeester has three times as many 40+ point seasons as Kronwall and on a team like Detroit he'd be much more likely to be a 50+ point guy.
Or he hit his peak early in his career and turned into a far more modest player. It's not the first time it happened. Hell, look at his new teammate Wade Redden. That dude had even more 40+ seasons under his belt and a full blown 50 point season.

If JBo is such a difference maker loaded with potential, you've got to ask yourself why it more teams didn't want that guy on their roster. Why is Holland the only idiot? There's got to be 15 other GMs out there that could have easily outbid that offer and easily used a guy who is being puffed up more than Kronwall.

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04-02-2013, 12:12 AM
  #105
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Whether or not Jay Bo is worth a first round pick doent really matter.

He doesn't fill the hole in the Wings defense. He is basically Canadian Kronwall.

Plays a ton of mistake filled minutes and is another lefty.

Wings need stay at home d-men.

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04-02-2013, 12:12 AM
  #106
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Bouwmeester would've fit in quite well on any traditional red wings team. He's a great skater and always plays with his head up. He would've fit in similar to the way Rafalski did. Rafalski was probably better when the play is slow in the offensive zone, but Bouwmeester is better at getting through the neutral zone. Neither one plans to spend much time in the d zone.

I think because of his athleticism and lack of physical play, at under 30, he could have a long career ahead of him. I'm not sure how to rate his awareness, being that he hasn't really played with any elite playmakers consistently, my gut tells me he might not have an elite sixth sense, but he does seem to get in and out of plays at the right times, and generally has an upper echelon aura out there, but I think that has more to do with his legs than his brain.

To be honest I don't know our cap situation or the NHL's intimately enough to judge how risky his cap hit is. I do think Bouwmeester is much more valuable than Brunner, Filppula and Howard.

The fact that St Louis got Bouwmeester for essentially the same price that we got Kyle "bermuda triangle" Quincy is a joke.

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04-02-2013, 12:13 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
You have this misconceived notion that Bouwmeester is better than he actually is. And that's the problem.
Just like the other half of HFBoards has this misconceived notion that Jay Bouwmeester is much worse than he actually is. There seems to be no middle ground. No matter what you think of him, he clearly would have made Detroit a better team. The return Calgary got stings, but it's not about Bouwmeester anymore. There are other opportunities and very little time before deadline day.

Bob has been dead on in this thread. Moves need to be made, one way or the other. A late first and some guys that will probably never play in the NHL for a top pairing guy under 30 probably makes us a better team. Whether we push for contention while Z/D are still in their 'primes' or head toward a re-tooling right now, moves need to be made.

We have tons of aging contracts that are likely either going to be bought out or leaving for nothing when they could be moved now for assets. Any assets.

Even moving guys like White, Abdelkader, Cleary, or whoever for anything we can get makes us a better team with room to bring in Tatar and Nyquist full-time. Contracts need to be moved.

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04-02-2013, 12:15 AM
  #108
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You can't please everyone. Had the Wings made this trade you'd have the same amount of people breaking out the torches and pitchforks at Holland for trading a 1st for someone who doesn't put us over the top as you would people applauding him for the deal.

I think JBo is a #3 defensemen and not anywhere close to worth his cap hit. Just because he'd immediately become our best Defenseman doesn't make him worth it. We'd essentially be trading for another Kronwall. A #1 D via circumstance.

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04-02-2013, 12:16 AM
  #109
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Or he hit his peak early in his career and turned into a far more modest player. It's not the first time it happened. Hell, look at his new teammate Wade Redden. That dude had even more 40+ seasons under his belt and a full blown 50 point season.

If JBo is such a difference maker loaded with potential, you've got to ask yourself why it more teams didn't want that guy on their roster. Why is Holland the only idiot? There's got to be 15 other GMs out there that could have easily outbid that offer and easily used a guy who is being puffed up more than Kronwall.
Protip:
Check Jaybo's stats against his PP time over the years.

Very few teams looking to buy a defenseman can afford $7M next year. That drastically lowered the market for Bouwmeester.

Another thing to consider about Bouwmeester ... has this guy ever played with 1, let alone two or three, two-way centers?

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04-02-2013, 12:18 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post

Wings need stay at home d-men.
I think the opposite is the case. The wings need d-men who can get the puck as far away from their defensive zone as quickly as possible. Losing Lidstrom and Rafalski has hurt our offense to a startling degree.

I think the writing has been on the wall for a while that the red wings are moving away from a transitional, fluid, offensive, puck possession game, into a net front zone to zone set up, but I'm still holding out hope, because this new trajectory does not appear promising, short term or long term.

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04-02-2013, 12:19 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Whether or not Jay Bo is worth a first round pick doent really matter.

He doesn't fill the hole in the Wings defense. He is basically Canadian Kronwall.

Plays a ton of mistake filled minutes and is another lefty.

Wings need stay at home d-men.
On this issue we're in total agreement. I never thought he was a good fit, other than the fact he was a defenseman, had warm blood, and wasn't old. In that respect he was okay.

Other than that, he wasn't a guy I wanted to rest my hopes on with this team moving forward. Holland should shake this team up, but not with an underachiever who plays a soft game on the blueline.

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04-02-2013, 12:20 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by vladdy16 View Post
I think the opposite is the case. The wings need d-men who can get the puck as far away from their defensive zone as quickly as possible. Losing Lidstrom and Rafalski has hurt our offense to a startling degree.

I think the writing has been on the wall for a while that the red wings are moving away from a transitional, fluid, offensive, puck possession game, into a net front zone to zone set up, but I'm still holding out hope, because this new trajectory does not appear promising, short term or long term.
Ehhhhh idk about that.

Pairing Smith with somebody who is responsible and not a total moron might give him the confidence to jump in more.

Kronwall needs a baby sitter to thrive.

Right now Ericsson is the Wings best baby sitter...........yikes.


You might be right, but some stability on the blue line might help.

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04-02-2013, 12:21 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Bouwmeester is pretty similar in value to Stuart IMO. Doubt that would make enough of a difference to switch this team from "should probably rebuild" to "contender".
By himself? No.

But if you can get Bouwmeester for say, Quincey, McCollum and a first.

Now you go get Gaborik for Nyquist, Cleary, and Jensen or whatever.

Now you've given yourself a fighting chance without killing your considerable prospect depth.

I think something like this might still be doable, too, if a guy like Robidas is available.

So let's see.

I just want to see Holland decide. Does he go for it? Or does he sell.

I want to see one or the other. What I don't want to see is NOTHING.

If Holland doesn't make this team better, I don't want to see mediocre veterans skating around on our first and second lines

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04-02-2013, 12:22 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Protip:
Check Jaybo's stats against his PP time over the years.

Very few teams looking to buy a defenseman can afford $7M next year. That drastically lowered the market for Bouwmeester.

Another thing to consider about Bouwmeester ... has this guy ever played with 1, let alone two or three, two-way centers?
Why not? If he's as good as you say, then you fit him onto your roster for the remaining year on his contract.

So I check his PP time. OK, sure. And I believe he is awesome with 2-way centers. Hey, not bad. I'm supposed to believe only the Red Wings need this guy? Come on, tons of team would need a stud like that.

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04-02-2013, 12:22 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Ehhhhh idk about that.

Pairing Smith with somebody who is responsible and not a total moron might give him the confidence to jump in more.
Smith jumps in plenty...

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04-02-2013, 12:24 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post

Another thing to consider about Bouwmeester ... has this guy ever played with 1, let alone two or three, two-way centers?
Exactly. I don't understand how people can reach such strong conclusions about a player that has only played in Florida and Calgary.

Bouwmeester strikes me as an all star calibur complimentary player. Like Rafalski, or Ottawa Hossa, etc. Somebody that can use great skill and athleticism if given the freedom of playing a bit under the radar.

Bouwmeester could be a lot more creative/dynamic and aggressive if he were linked in with Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Filppula.

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04-02-2013, 12:26 AM
  #117
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Hey, I completely respect your opinion but the truth of the matter is that Calgary has been one of the worst offensive teams in the league while the Wings have always been one of the best. So Kronwall has his stats inflated while Bouwmeester has his deflated. The fact remains Bouwmeester has three times as many 40+ point seasons as Kronwall and on a team like Detroit he'd be much more likely to be a 50+ point guy.

We need a top pairing guy and we could have gotten one for only a first round pick. It's really that simple. Kindl (first round pick) ain't anywhere close to being a top pairing guy. Quincey (first round pick) ain't either. Kronwall (first round pick) is looking really, really bad on a top pairing.

I don't care how anyone tries to spin us missing out on Bouwmeester. He was absolutely worth a first and he'd solidify our top pairing until Sproul, Ouellet and Backman are ready for duty. Does anyone think he's going to struggle in St Louis? He'll play top pairing mins alongside Alex Pietrangelo along with big PP mins (only Shattenkirk and Pietrangelo play more than 1 min with the man advantage), in addition to big PK minutes which is an area where the Blues are playing Shattenkirk too much. He's going to thrive in St Louis.
Calgary was 8th in the league in Goals for the season they picked up Bouwmeester and fell to 2nd last in his first season there. There was also very little turnover on the teams roster until the middle of the season when they traded Phaneuf. They returned to the top 10 in scoring the next season despite Bouwmeester having career worst scoring #'s. I don't think Calgary's offence is responsible for Bouwmeesters declining production, that's on him.

Its also true no matter how you try to spin it that Kronwall has been a better offensive defenceman than Bouwmeester over the past 6 seasons. He also has a 50+pt season which JBo has never done and in all likelyhood will never accomplish.

If Bouwmeester is put on St Louis's second pairing I think he'll thrive in St. Louis, if they play him on the 1st pairing I think he'll frustrate the hell out of Hitchcock. They have shut down guys who can cover for his defensive liabilities, the Wings don't.
They also have lots of right side defenceman where the Wings have only 1.

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04-02-2013, 12:27 AM
  #118
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Smith jumps in plenty...
And he gets burned on it quite a lot. I am still pretty high on Smith. Ken Holland put Smith in the worst possible situation for a rookie d-man. I think it's a confidence issue with Smith and getting used to playing in a league where he isn't one of the best players on the ice.

Going a bit OT.

I personally can't criticize Smith this year. No training camp and being paired with mouth breathers or plylons that you see on I-94 just isn't going to work.

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04-02-2013, 12:29 AM
  #119
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Bouwmeester is a two-day D that's really not great at anything other than skating. If you want a guy to give you 40 points or contribute offensively go for someone like Yandle. If you want someone to play stay-at-home or PK we should have went for someone like Regehr.

Bouwmeester really doesn't fill a need. Left-handed Left-sided guy who plays with no physicality and is turnover prone. Sound like anyone you know? Yeah, the rest of our defense.

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04-02-2013, 12:32 AM
  #120
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he'll frustrate the hell out of Hitchcock.
Understatement.

Hey, if he finally finds his game again, I'll eat crow. But I'm not seeing this all-star everybody is describing in this thread. If he's hiding all these talents, it's a better trick than The Prestige.

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04-02-2013, 12:32 AM
  #121
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Why not? If he's as good as you say, then you fit him onto your roster for the remaining year on his contract.

So I check his PP time. OK, sure. And I believe he is awesome with 2-way centers. Hey, not bad. I'm supposed to believe only the Red Wings need this guy? Come on, tons of team would need a stud like that.
Wow. Loaded with snark.

One, I never said Bouwmeester was awesome.
I said he was better than Kronwall, or equal to Kronwall at worst.

Two, only way we can really afford it is if we move a guy like Quincey ($4M) the other way. (unless we're just doing Bouwmeester a la carte, which I think is a bad move).

I never said he was awesome with 2-way centers, did I.

But what I am saying is that his stats will rebound with prime time PP minutes.

I also think his defensive stats would be much, much better on a team that has capable two-way centers.

Back in the offseason, when the Bouwmeester rumors were discussed, I said that Bouwmeester is the perfect guy to fill the Lidstrom/Suter role on the Red Wings. But understand that it's in the "lite" role.

Puck possessiion guy. Plays well in every situation. Isn't physical. He's not as good as Suter. He's not as good as a 41-year-old Lidstrom even.

THe problem is we have too many lefty puck mover defensemen.

But if you're moving out a Quincey, then you're just improving on something you already had.

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04-02-2013, 12:34 AM
  #122
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I think something like this might still be doable, too, if a guy like Robidas is available.
That would be a far better pick-up than Bouwmeester. Half the cap hit, same length of contract, better shot blocker, more physical, Right handed, and plays the right side.

The only knock against him at all would be his age, but considering it would only be for the remainder of the season and next year he'd be as close to perfect as you'd find.

I'm all for making a deal that improves the team, I just don't think trading for Bouwmeester accomplished that.

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04-02-2013, 12:35 AM
  #123
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That would be a far better pick-up than Bouwmeester. Half the cap hit, same length of contract, better shot blocker, more physical, Right handed, and plays the right side.

The only knock against him at all would be his age, but considering it would only be for the remainder of the season and next year he'd be as close to perfect as you'd find.

I'm all for making a deal that improves the team, I just don't think trading for Bouwmeester accomplished that.
I think Bouwmeester improves the team a lot.
But no, he's not the ideal fit.

And I don't think upgrading D alone is worth it. If Holland is going to trade kids/picks, he needs to also upgrade our 2nd line RW

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04-02-2013, 12:39 AM
  #124
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Wow. Loaded with snark.

One, I never said Bouwmeester was awesome.
I said he was better than Kronwall, or equal to Kronwall at worst.
JBo isn't awesome, he's just a top 20 defender. That's you right now. That's what you're saying without realizing it.

I know you hate Kronwall, but put the older Nick on the trade market and you'll get way more interest than JBo got. And it's not a Swedish conspiracy... or is it?

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04-02-2013, 12:41 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
I think Bouwmeester improves the team a lot.
But no, he's not the ideal fit.

And I don't think upgrading D alone is worth it. If Holland is going to trade kids/picks, he needs to also upgrade our 2nd line RW
I agree with that too (the last sentence) but if we add Bouwmeester I think it handcuffs us attempting to upgrade at forward without adding significant salary in both deals.

For all we know salary might be the reason the Flames took the Blues package over whatever Holland offered. Perhaps they didn't want to take Quincey's 4 million dollar contract when they are rebuilding and cutting costs.

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