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David Desharnais - Black or White Edition

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Old
04-01-2013, 10:36 PM
  #451
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Great game by DD tonight. Finish or no finish.


And I'm not talking about the country.

Wow! His linemates (3 points) did well in spite of DD. DD missed multiple scoring opportunities generated by MaxPac (who played like a beast tonite) and was his usual turnover machine. Not impressed at all.

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04-01-2013, 10:39 PM
  #452
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Wow! His linemates (3 points) did well in spite of DD. DD missed multiple scoring opportunities generated by MaxPac (who played like a beast tonite) and was his usual turnover machine. Not impressed at all.
Looking pretty biased here, man. max had a ton of oppurtunities he didn't cash in on, and half of his goals were on empty nets

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04-01-2013, 10:43 PM
  #453
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But in the end, put lipstick on a pig, and it's still a pig.
I guess people will see what they want to see.

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04-01-2013, 10:46 PM
  #454
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Wow! His linemates (3 points) did well in spite of DD. DD missed multiple scoring opportunities generated by MaxPac (who played like a beast tonite) and was his usual turnover machine. Not impressed at all.
And this is why people take what you say with a grain of salt. Everyone, GDT and PGT, loved DD's game tonight.

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04-01-2013, 10:58 PM
  #455
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What are we getting excited about ?

DD had an okay game. He was Giontaesque out there. He lost alot of puck battle and wasted two prime opportunities to score. One empty netter and one ''mini'' breakaway. He made some nice plays for sure, but to go out and say he was great ? Better than other nights, yes.

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04-01-2013, 11:06 PM
  #456
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What are we getting excited about ?

DD had an okay game. He was Giontaesque out there. He lost alot of puck battle and wasted two prime opportunities to score. One empty netter and one ''mini'' breakaway. He made some nice plays for sure, but to go out and say he was great ? Better than other nights, yes.
Who is getting excited?

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04-01-2013, 11:10 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
What are we getting excited about ?

DD had an okay game. He was Giontaesque out there. He lost alot of puck battle and wasted two prime opportunities to score. One empty netter and one ''mini'' breakaway. He made some nice plays for sure, but to go out and say he was great ? Better than other nights, yes.
Are you nitpicking that he said 'great'. I think it's safe to say 99% of us are on same page and he played better but needs to produce. Max and DD showed signs of life and that's a good start.

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04-01-2013, 11:13 PM
  #458
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Who is getting excited?
Dunno I got trashed last time because I used the term Great to describe Pateryn's stint in the league, sorry, HF transformed me

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04-01-2013, 11:39 PM
  #459
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Wow! His linemates (3 points) did well in spite of DD. DD missed multiple scoring opportunities generated by MaxPac (who played like a beast tonite) and was his usual turnover machine. Not impressed at all.
1 turnover = a turnover machine?? I don't know what's your definition of a machine, but it's not the same as mine.

By the way, do you know how many giveaways he has since the beginning of the season? 50? 40? No, he has ony 11.

Plekanec has 18. Eller 16. Markov 38.

If DD is a giveaway machine, then what does it make them?

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04-01-2013, 11:42 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
1 turnover = a turnover machine?? I don't know what's your definition of a machine, but it's not the same as mine.

By the way, do you know how many giveaways he has since the beginning of the season? 50? 40? No, he has ony 11.

Plekanec has 18. Eller 16. Markov 38.

If DD is a giveaway machine, then what does it make them?
Giveaways don't show the proper picture. No one has ever based an argument around this. It's not a realiable statistic.

DD had more than one ''turnover'' (AKA Losing the puck to the opponent.)

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04-01-2013, 11:51 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
What are we getting excited about ?

DD had an okay game. He was Giontaesque out there. He lost alot of puck battle and wasted two prime opportunities to score. One empty netter and one ''mini'' breakaway. He made some nice plays for sure, but to go out and say he was great ? Better than other nights, yes.
He was "Giontaesque" in the sense that he was a positive possession player, but that's about it. Desharnais had a great game and did what was asked of him, create plays and get the puck to the net. His line was dangerous most shift and Desharnais himself generated a lot of shots. He's a poor shooter but there was at least two chances he was robbed on, and nobody on this team would have gotten.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
1 turnover = a turnover machine?? I don't know what's your definition of a machine, but it's not the same as mine.

By the way, do you know how many giveaways he has since the beginning of the season? 50? 40? No, he has ony 11.

Plekanec has 18. Eller 16. Markov 38.

If DD is a giveaway machine, then what does it make them?
It's underhanded how you leave out Subban and his 29 giveaways. Much as it was underhanded when people tried to downplay Subban's performance last year by pointing out he was 6th in the league in giveaways without mentioning the context. Or to mention other league leaders in giveaways including Tavares (31), Crosby (28), Letang (32) and so on.

Giveaways are a pretty useless stat. Having a lot of giveaways means:
1. You have a lot of ice time.
2. You have the puck a lot.
3. You skate with the puck a lot.

It could also mean you are sloppy with the puck (Markov and Emelin are our team leaders there after all), but usually it just means a lot is expected of you. Desharnais and Pacioretty have less takeaways than Plekanec, Eller or Ryder because they start more often in the offensive zone and don't have to battle through the neutral zone more often.

I'd say Desharnais does tend to be turnover prone when he's taken out of his comfort zone, ergo that's why he's used as he is and that's why he's paid accordingly. He wasn't particularly turnover prone against Carolina more than anyone else on the team though so I'm not sure where this is coming from.


Last edited by Et le But: 04-02-2013 at 12:05 AM.
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Old
04-01-2013, 11:52 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Giveaways don't show the proper picture. No one has ever based an argument around this. It's not a realiable statistic.

DD had more than one ''turnover'' (AKA Losing the puck to the opponent.)
Ah ok. So the official statisticians have it all wrong, but you know better I suppose.

So what's the difference between a turnover and a giveaway, then?

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04-01-2013, 11:59 PM
  #463
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Is there anything even left to discuss in DD thread?

At this point there should probably be a 'line combo' suggestion thread and call it a day.

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04-02-2013, 12:06 AM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Ah ok. So the official statisticians have it all wrong, but you know better I suppose.

So what's the difference between a turnover and a giveaway, then?
Partisan,

They are not an objective stat like goals or ice time.

Giveaway are counted differently in every arena, apparently.

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04-02-2013, 12:12 AM
  #465
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Partisan,

They are not an objective stat like goals or ice time.

Giveaway are counted differently in every arena, apparently.
All of the NHL.com "real time stats" are flawed for that reason, since they are independently counted per arena without a clear cut line anyway - it's a problem with stats like hits, but at least hits can be compared to the extent that league leaders hit a lot, and others don't.

Takeaways and giveaways are as useless as you get.

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04-02-2013, 01:40 AM
  #466
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Partisan,

They are not an objective stat like goals or ice time.

Giveaway are counted differently in every arena, apparently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
All of the NHL.com "real time stats" are flawed for that reason, since they are independently counted per arena without a clear cut line anyway - it's a problem with stats like hits, but at least hits can be compared to the extent that league leaders hit a lot, and others don't.

Takeaways and giveaways are as useless as you get.
I'm not saying these stats are perfectly accurate. But they are still calculated by professional statisticians. While we cannot use these stats as exact tools, we can certainly use them to see tendancies.

No one should be surprised, for example, that Matt Martin, Chris Neil, Steve Ott, Zac Rinaldo and Luke Schenn are the league leaders in hits, that McDonald, Orpik and Smid are the leaders in blocked shots and that Datsyuk, Toews and Staal are the leaders in takeaways. While this is maybe not perfectly accurate, this still gives a fair general portrait of tendancies. True?

Now, if DD was really the giveaway machine that's being portrayed by some on this board, don't you think there should be some statistical evidences to support that? 11 giveaways only might not be perfectly accurate, but do you really think the official statisticians are blind enough to miss all of his giveaways and to miss the fact that he's a "turnover machine"?

We should fire them all if that's the case. (but it's not)

I love how the DD detractors love to use micro stats to make him look bad, but reject any stats that doesn't fit the idea they have of him.

By the way, I watch the games too. And what I see on the ice is not different than stats : no, DD is not a turnover machine. But I see that his detractors have a very vivid imagination.

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04-02-2013, 06:20 AM
  #467
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If DD would play like this every game, nobody would complain, even if he'd have 20 points in 36 games.

The problem is that, for many times this season, his play was worse than his points totals indicates.

Tonight, his play was much better than his lack of points indicated. Good game at the dot as well.

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04-02-2013, 10:12 AM
  #468
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If DD would play like this every game, nobody would complain, even if he'd have 20 points in 36 games.

The problem is that, for many times this season, his play was worse than his points totals indicates.

Tonight, his play was much better than his lack of points indicated. Good game at the dot as well.
This exactly.
DD is playing with the two best wingers the habs have...Max and Gally. For the most part the offensive pressure is created by these forwards, when cycling the puck DD loses possession more times than the other two combined. DD is physically outmatched out there and is hurting this line big time.

Can't wait too see the day that we get a real center between these two wingers. IMO we would have one of the most dominant lines in hockey.

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04-02-2013, 10:16 AM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
I'm not saying these stats are perfectly accurate. But they are still calculated by professional statisticians. While we cannot use these stats as exact tools, we can certainly use them to see tendancies.

No one should be surprised, for example, that Matt Martin, Chris Neil, Steve Ott, Zac Rinaldo and Luke Schenn are the league leaders in hits, that McDonald, Orpik and Smid are the leaders in blocked shots and that Datsyuk, Toews and Staal are the leaders in takeaways. While this is maybe not perfectly accurate, this still gives a fair general portrait of tendancies. True?

Now, if DD was really the giveaway machine that's being portrayed by some on this board, don't you think there should be some statistical evidences to support that? 11 giveaways only might not be perfectly accurate, but do you really think the official statisticians are blind enough to miss all of his giveaways and to miss the fact that he's a "turnover machine"?

We should fire them all if that's the case. (but it's not)

I love how the DD detractors love to use micro stats to make him look bad, but reject any stats that doesn't fit the idea they have of him.

By the way, I watch the games too. And what I see on the ice is not different than stats : no, DD is not a turnover machine. But I see that his detractors have a very vivid imagination.
It is hard to turnover the puck when you never win a battle to get the puck. DD constantly loses board battles where he first touches the puck... this is not counted as a turnover, however, it is obvious to anyone who watches the Habs play.

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04-02-2013, 10:22 AM
  #470
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
If DD would play like this every game, nobody would complain, even if he'd have 20 points in 36 games.

The problem is that, for many times this season, his play was worse than his points totals indicates.

Tonight, his play was much better than his lack of points indicated. Good game at the dot as well.
I've said this before and I kept saying it last night, DD needs to always play aggressive. I loved his game last night, battling in the corners, making great passes and shooting more and not forcing the pass.

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04-02-2013, 10:43 AM
  #471
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If DD would play like this every game, nobody would complain, even if he'd have 20 points in 36 games.
I guess you missed the comments in this thread after last night's game then.

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04-02-2013, 10:47 AM
  #472
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This exactly.
DD is playing with the two best wingers the habs have...Max and Gally. For the most part the offensive pressure is created by these forwards, when cycling the puck DD loses possession more times than the other two combined. DD is physically outmatched out there and is hurting this line big time.

Can't wait too see the day that we get a real center between these two wingers. IMO we would have one of the most dominant lines in hockey.
next year...Galchenyuk

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04-02-2013, 10:57 AM
  #473
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
I'm not saying these stats are perfectly accurate. But they are still calculated by professional statisticians. While we cannot use these stats as exact tools, we can certainly use them to see tendancies.

No one should be surprised, for example, that Matt Martin, Chris Neil, Steve Ott, Zac Rinaldo and Luke Schenn are the league leaders in hits, that McDonald, Orpik and Smid are the leaders in blocked shots and that Datsyuk, Toews and Staal are the leaders in takeaways. While this is maybe not perfectly accurate, this still gives a fair general portrait of tendancies. True?

Now, if DD was really the giveaway machine that's being portrayed by some on this board, don't you think there should be some statistical evidences to support that? 11 giveaways only might not be perfectly accurate, but do you really think the official statisticians are blind enough to miss all of his giveaways and to miss the fact that he's a "turnover machine"?

We should fire them all if that's the case. (but it's not)

I love how the DD detractors love to use micro stats to make him look bad, but reject any stats that doesn't fit the idea they have of him.

By the way, I watch the games too. And what I see on the ice is not different than stats : no, DD is not a turnover machine. But I see that his detractors have a very vivid imagination.
The thing is, there are plenty of micro stats that make Desharnais look good. He's generating more shots than last year (though his SO% luck is gone), and his corsi is more often than not positive. The criticism is that he's not dominating enough for his exploitation role and is being outplayed by his wingers, but he's not actually getting dominated out there.

Saying that he gets regularly dominated is people seeing what they want to see, because they see a small guy who isn't particularly strong on his skates and assume he can't be effective. He outplays his matchups - they are easy sure, but if he really was a fringe NHLer like Weber even that wouldn't be enough.

But yes, the giveaway stat is useless. The Habs team leaders in giveaways are all our best players, and Emelin. Only Markov has more giveaways than Crosby. All that stat is good for is determining who likes to posses the puck for a long time.

My personal opinion from watching the games is that Desharnais is turnover prone when he's forced to play along multiple zones. For a center he's not a good puck protector as he's weak and doesn't have high end top speed. However, he can exploit space that is already there. When he's already set up in the offensive zone he's careful with the puck and if anything makes some timely recoveries. He's a one zone player, but so is Gorges.

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04-02-2013, 11:02 AM
  #474
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The thing is, there are plenty of micro stats that make Desharnais look good. He's generating more shots than last year (though his SO% luck is gone), and his corsi is more often than not positive. The criticism is that he's not dominating enough for his exploitation role and is being outplayed by his wingers, but he's not actually getting dominated out there.

Saying that he gets regularly dominated is people seeing what they want to see, because they see a small guy who isn't particularly strong on his skates and assume he can't be effective. He outplays his matchups - they are easy sure, but if he really was a fringe NHLer like Weber even that wouldn't be enough.

But yes, the giveaway stat is useless. The Habs team leaders in giveaways are all our best players, and Emelin. Only Markov has more giveaways than Crosby. All that stat is good for is determining who likes to posses the puck for a long time.

My personal opinion from watching the games is that Desharnais is turnover prone when he's forced to play along multiple zones. For a center he's not a good puck protector as he's weak and doesn't have high end top speed. However, he can exploit space that is already there. When he's already set up in the offensive zone he's careful with the puck and if anything makes some timely recoveries. He's a one zone player, but so is Gorges.
I really think MT's system screws him up a bit. We see alot more puck battles this year than last year, and consequently we also see DD(Gio too) lose puck battles more often.

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04-04-2013, 09:40 PM
  #475
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Just saw this on twitter:

David Desharnais: 100 minutes 57 seconds on the PP. 5 points.
Lars Eller: 21 minutes 41 seconds on the PP. 5 points.

Just saying.

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