HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Would Lemieux have won the Hart had he gotten one more point for 200 in 1989?

View Poll Results: Would Lemieux have won the Hart had he gotten one more point for 200 in 1989?
No, it wouldn't have mattered 22 66.67%
Yes 4 12.12%
unsure 7 21.21%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-31-2013, 10:24 AM
  #26
shazariahl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,935
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
He played in every situation. Power play, shorthanded. Had 12 shorthanded goals one year. However, Kurri often played shorthanded as well. I think it really came down to the fact that Gretzky just controlled the ice so well. He could hit Kurri streaking or he could delay and hit the late man (Coffey) coming in over the line. His assists were spread out a lot.
Exactly this. Not only did he play in every situation, but he also double shifted sometimes. And, unlike a lot of playmakers who had their "go to guy" finisher, while Gretzky had Kurri he also had the ability to set up anyone. Everyone he played with became a "go to guy" it seemed. He didn't have to waste time looking for that one guy, because he had 4 of them.

shazariahl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2013, 01:54 PM
  #27
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Is it Wayne's fault that he had some great teammates playing with him? He almost accomplished that very feat for the 2nd time as a 20 year old when 2nd place Anderson scored 105 points.....but the only difference is Wayne scored 212 points that year, not 150+. I can guarantee you one thing: Yzerman never scored in his wildest dreams 200+ points in any season where none of his teammates even broke 140 like Wayne somehow managed to do 4 times.
No it's not Wayne's fault for playing with better players, just like it's not Steve's fault for not playing with great players.

At the end of the day we have to make a judgment but all to often guys will say that team mates and team situation don't' matter which is a bit of a joke, at worst, and intellectually dishonest, at best, to say the least.

One could say that on a better team, like later in his career, that Steve might get less ice time to produce but then again what if his coach doubled shifted him with better players?

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2013, 11:10 PM
  #28
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,572
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
Better yet, is it Gretzky's fault he was such a skilled playmaker he made it virtually impossible to miss easy tap in goals?

Did Yzerman turn Bernie Nichols into a 70 goal scorer? Yzerman was a great leader, but there has never been anyone who could literally FORCE other players to be great like Gretzky did.
Gretzky and Nicholls didn't even play on the same line. From what I can tell from looking at box scores, Gretzky assisted on about 20 or 21 of Nicholls' goals. There are about ten more I don't have the box score for. That means there are a minimum of 40 goals Gretzky had no impact on. Interestingly though, it seemed like Gretzky having a Nicholls assist on his own goal was more common than Gretzky assisting on Nicholls' goals. I didn't keep track, but that's what it felt like.

Furthermore, Bernie Nicholls scored 97 goals and 128 assists for 225 points in 126 games while teammates with Wayne Gretzky. He scored a career total of 475-734-1209 in 1127. His career totals from before Gretzky was traded to LA until he was traded out of LA:

1001GP, 378-606-984

That's a borderline HHOF career spent almost entirely as a 2C, and later on even as a 3C, before you even count his year-plus spent as the 2C behind Gretzky.

Quote:
This guy called BJ Mc Donald even scored 46 goals playing with gretzky. I probably would have scored 30. My grannie probably 20.
And he also couldn't make Brett Hull score the way Adam Oates did. Not even close, in fact. Some guys click, some don't. Why did Hull click so well with Oates and Datsyuk but not with Janney or Gretzky? Why did Shanahan click with Janney better than Hull? (before Shanny met Janney's wife).

Quote:
Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
Exactly this. Not only did he play in every situation, but he also double shifted sometimes. And, unlike a lot of playmakers who had their "go to guy" finisher, while Gretzky had Kurri he also had the ability to set up anyone. Everyone he played with became a "go to guy" it seemed. He didn't have to waste time looking for that one guy, because he had 4 of them.
Gretzky had a lot of go-to guys in Edmonton. Most of them are going-to or are in the HHOF. You know; guys like Kurri, Anderson, Messier, Coffey. He later played with guys like Luc Robitaille, and others.

One big reason Gretzky absolutely cannot be considered the more valuable player is the fact that Nicholls, who played on a separate line at even strength and often the same line on the PP, was effectively equally important offensively. The 18-point gap is small given that there was a decent amount of point share and that they finished 2nd and 4th overall and 3rd and 4th in ES scoring. Nicholls was effectively Jaromir Jagr in 1995-96, had there been a 199-point scorer above Mario that year. Jagr that season was, incidentally, the second-highest scoring second-line player ever. The example's not perfect; Jagr played all year with Ron Francis, while Nicholls and Gretzky shared time with Luc Robitaille. The PP works out as both teams stacked their three stars on the first unit, with Lemieux and Nicholls moving to the wing on their respective units. Jagr also was the league leader in ES scoring by a wide margin despite losing the overall title to Lemieux, in part because Lemieux's ice was more carefully managed due to his health and he didn't have anyone nearly as good as Francis at ES.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 08:52 AM
  #29
shazariahl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,935
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Gretzky had a lot of go-to guys in Edmonton. Most of them are going-to or are in the HHOF. You know; guys like Kurri, Anderson, Messier, Coffey. He later played with guys like Luc Robitaille, and others.

One big reason Gretzky absolutely cannot be considered the more valuable player is the fact that Nicholls, who played on a separate line at even strength and often the same line on the PP, was effectively equally important offensively. The 18-point gap is small given that there was a decent amount of point share and that they finished 2nd and 4th overall and 3rd and 4th in ES scoring. Nicholls was effectively Jaromir Jagr in 1995-96, had there been a 199-point scorer above Mario that year. Jagr that season was, incidentally, the second-highest scoring second-line player ever. The example's not perfect; Jagr played all year with Ron Francis, while Nicholls and Gretzky shared time with Luc Robitaille. The PP works out as both teams stacked their three stars on the first unit, with Lemieux and Nicholls moving to the wing on their respective units. Jagr also was the league leader in ES scoring by a wide margin despite losing the overall title to Lemieux, in part because Lemieux's ice was more carefully managed due to his health and he didn't have anyone nearly as good as Francis at ES.
You are discounting Nicholls for playing on a separate line, but you listed Messier and Anderson as "go-to guys" in Edmonton. They didn't play on Gretzky's line either. Gretzky also assisted on roughly 40% of Nicholls goals that year, which is a pretty staggering amount considering they weren't even linemates.

Besides, my arguement was never that Gretzky deserved the Hart, but that he won it because the media like the "Gretzky single-handedly saves the Kings!" story that they pushed. Doesn't even matter that the story wasn't 100% accurate, it was their story, and they're the ones voting. It shouldn't be a surprise then, that they voted for their own story.

shazariahl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 07:28 PM
  #30
tazzy19
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,153
vCash: 500
It just blows me away that 38% of the people who voted in this poll, have voted for something other than "No" -- just based on Lemieux scoring one extra point! (And, yes, I'm guilty, too )

tazzy19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 11:00 PM
  #31
LeBlondeDemon10
BlindLemon Haystacks
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,261
vCash: 500
No, 200 had been done before. Another way to look at it is would Lemieux have won the Hart if he had spoken better English, was more media friendly and more outgoing? And had Gretzky not been traded. Pittsburgh was not exactly the center of the NHL in 1988 like it has been the last 22 years. Lemieux transformed an outlier NHL city into one of the most focused on teams in the NHL of recent times not once, but twice (when he bought the team and saved it).

LeBlondeDemon10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 01:14 AM
  #32
billybudd
5 cups pls
 
billybudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 20,046
vCash: 500
No. The voters were gonna give it to Gretzky and that's all there is to it. Wayne gave them plenty of headlines and quotes in 89 and Lemieux treated people who vote on that type of thing as if they were beneath him.

No joke, I can remember reading an archived news article bashing 66 after this particular season, saying, paraphrased "If Lemieux cared about winning, he'd have 300 points every year. That he never does is evidence that he doesn't." Clearly that prediction and criticism is so ludicrous that it represented nothing more than one guy coming up with any reason he could to pass him over, even if it was one as stupid as that.

Ask yourself this question: if a bunch of guys got hurt next year and Phil Kessel (not that he and Lemieux are the same type of player) took home the Art Ross, do you think he'd win the Hart? I don't. I think the Toronto media that, quite inexplicably, has it out for him would come up with some fabricated justification to give it to a goaltender or defenseman and lobby until it was done. Or the Richard winner. Anybody but Phil.

Mario occupied a similar space in the eyes of writers at the time: persona non grata (though for different reasons).

billybudd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 01:28 AM
  #33
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,572
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
You are discounting Nicholls for playing on a separate line, but you listed Messier and Anderson as "go-to guys" in Edmonton. They didn't play on Gretzky's line either. Gretzky also assisted on roughly 40% of Nicholls goals that year, which is a pretty staggering amount considering they weren't even linemates.

Besides, my arguement was never that Gretzky deserved the Hart, but that he won it because the media like the "Gretzky single-handedly saves the Kings!" story that they pushed. Doesn't even matter that the story wasn't 100% accurate, it was their story, and they're the ones voting. It shouldn't be a surprise then, that they voted for their own story.
Anderson/Gretzky/Kurri was the big line in the early 80s. Sometimes Messier would be on that LW. Then Anderson switched to the second line and played with Messier, who moved to the middle. But Messier and Anderson both saw plenty of PP time with Gretzky.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.