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Vanek to Flyers

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Old
04-02-2013, 11:18 AM
  #26
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Asking price vs. what will be accepted will never work here. Price for Vanek is absurdly and rightfully high. Buffalo is just as content with keeping him.

Big time overpayment or not happening.

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Old
04-02-2013, 11:19 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by DEVILS ALL THE WAY View Post
Better question... Are the Flyers really looking to add a high priced winger over a high priced d-men?

Their defense is just brutal and correct me if I'm wrong but they have some solid pieces offensively, no?
That is a very good point. They really do have one of the most offensively talented teams in the NHL. Seems pretty odd to me that they'd go after a scoring player.

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04-02-2013, 11:20 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Beerz View Post
Nope.

Change Read to Simmonds and change Gustafsson to a 2014 1st and you got a deal.
IF the Flyers believe that Myers will turn into the #1 they so desperately need they might do this. I dont think this proposal is that far off of what a deal would look like if it happened.

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04-02-2013, 11:24 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Beerz View Post
Nope.

Change Read to Simmonds and change Gustafsson to a 2014 1st and you got a deal.
The Flyers 1st could be a top 10 pick in the 13 draft.

Couturier
Read
Gustafsson
top 10 pick

is damn good value for a 60 point forward making 7 mil and a promising, future top-pairing defenseman who has regressed two consecutive years. Don't overvalue those guys. Both are very good players but FAR from elite and Vanek's cap hit is HUGE.

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04-02-2013, 11:26 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
No & no.
That's fine because Buffalo would never do that original deal.

You want Vanek? Couturier ++. We don't want Matt Read or Gustaffson. You want our elite players we want your elite trade chips, not your B level prospects and players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
The Flyers 1st could be a top 10 pick in the 13 draft.

Couturier
Read
Gustafsson
top 10 pick

is damn good value for a 60 point forward making 7 mil and a promising, future top-pairing defenseman who has regressed two consecutive years. Don't overvalue those guys. Both are very good players but FAR from elite and Vanek's cap hit is HUGE.
first off Vanek averages 68 points a season. So he isn't a "60" point winger. Second, he averages 35 goals a year and has the 10th highest gpg among active players. It's funny you berate Vanek and try to belittle his talent and production yet you want to trade for him . This trade proposal is terrible. You want Vanek and Myers? Start with Couturier and Brayden Schenn and keep adding . Don't even say Schenn and Couturier are worth more then Vanek AND Myers because they are not even close.

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04-02-2013, 11:30 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
The Flyers 1st could be a top 10 pick in the 13 draft.

Couturier
Read
Gustafsson
top 10 pick

is damn good value for a 60 point forward making 7 mil and a promising, future top-pairing defenseman who has regressed two consecutive years. Don't overvalue those guys. Both are very good players but FAR from elite and Vanek's cap hit is HUGE.

Couts has regressed from his first year as well..and his ceiling isn't very high offensivly... Shut down centers are nice...but Frans Nielson isnt a world beater.

Read is a 27 yr old playing his second season and has yet to prove anything.

Ill plead ignorance on Gus.

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04-02-2013, 11:32 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
That's fine because Buffalo would never do that original deal.

You want Vanek? Couturier ++. We don't want Matt Read or Gustaffson. You want our elite players we want your elite trade chips, not your B level prospects and players.




first off Vanek averages 68 points a season. So he isn't a "60" point winger. Second, he averages 35 goals a year and has the 10th highest gpg among active players. It's funny you berate Vanek and try to belittle his talent and production yet you want to trade for him . This trade proposal is terrible. You want Vanek and Myers? Start with Couturier and Brayden Schenn and keep adding . Don't even say Schenn and Couturier are worth more then Vanek AND Myers because they are not even close.
Vanek doesn't fit the Flyers salary cap structure. He is only signed for one year, and he basically couldn't be re-signed.

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04-02-2013, 11:32 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
That's fine because Buffalo would never do that original deal.

You want Vanek? Couturier ++. We don't want Matt Read or Gustaffson. You want our elite players we want your elite trade chips, not your B level prospects and players.




first off Vanek averages 68 points a season. So he isn't a "60" point winger. Second, he averages 35 goals a year and has the 10th highest gpg among active players. It's funny you berate Vanek and try to belittle his talent and production yet you want to trade for him . This trade proposal is terrible. You want Vanek and Myers? Start with Couturier and Brayden Schenn and keep adding . Don't even say Schenn and Couturier are worth more then Vanek AND Myers because they are not even close.
When was the last time in a salary cap era 2 young, emerging star players under 21 years old and younger (with small cap hits) were traded for two players combining for 12.6 mil cap hit? You overrate Vanek and Myers. This is not NHL13. Finances and cap hits play a huge part in making trades these days. There is a benefit for the Sabres freeing up close to 13 mil in salary.

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04-02-2013, 11:37 AM
  #34
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I don't want Couturier and I think people are over-projecting his potential. He's probably going to be a 35-40 point, defensive-minded 3C. Not something I'm giving Vanek away for. We can get one of those without including our best offensive player for the last 8 years.

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04-02-2013, 11:39 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by wearegodawful View Post
I don't want Couturier and I think people are over-projecting his potential. He's probably going to be a 35-40 point, defensive-minded 3C. Not something I'm giving Vanek away for. We can get one of those without including our best offensive player for the last 8 years.
He is overrated by the Sabres board.

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04-02-2013, 11:39 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
Couturier, Read, Gustafsson and a 1st

for

Vanek and Myers
Even if Buf was willing to accept that, they couldn't afford these guys due to the cap.

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04-02-2013, 12:08 PM
  #37
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Couturier has "regressed" because he's been with crap linemates and barely gets offensive zone starts. At least last season he had Read to play with.

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04-02-2013, 12:37 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by GTopCheese View Post
Couturier has "regressed" because he's been with crap linemates and barely gets offensive zone starts. At least last season he had Read to play with.
Honestly don't listen to some of my fellow Sabres fans. Saying Couturier will be a 35-40 point player is embarassing. Anybody that watched him last year and particularly in the playoffs know how good this kid looks like he'll be.

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04-02-2013, 01:32 PM
  #39
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This is interesting... Vanek to the flyers is unlikely IMO but can you imagine a Vanek- giroux - voracek line

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04-02-2013, 01:41 PM
  #40
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Why is Homer in on just about every big name forward that is potentially available when this team desperately needs top pairing defense.

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04-02-2013, 02:06 PM
  #41
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No no and no. Don't want either.

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04-02-2013, 02:08 PM
  #42
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Has to be $$$ going back to Sabres. Nothing proposed here remotely addresses that except Briere and Bryz mentions.

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04-02-2013, 02:29 PM
  #43
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I don't think the flyers could come up with a package that would make me want to trade Vanek and Myers unless Giroux was involved and that aint happening.

What about Pommer and Sekera?

For Couts and Coburn

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04-02-2013, 03:02 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
When was the last time in a salary cap era 2 young, emerging star players under 21 years old and younger (with small cap hits) were traded for two players combining for 12.6 mil cap hit? You overrate Vanek and Myers. This is not NHL13. Finances and cap hits play a huge part in making trades these days. There is a benefit for the Sabres freeing up close to 13 mil in salary.
If you consider the production that Schenn and Couturier have achieved has made them star players, then Myers is in the same category.

Myers is 23 years old.Won the Calder Trophy during a season he started at 19.He put up 48 points as a rookie, and 37 points the season after that.In Myers first 162 career games he put up 85 points.In Schenn AND Couturier's 207 combined games played between the two of them,They have put up 77 career points.Might I remind you that Tyler Myers is a defenseman.In 45 less games, Myers scored 8 more points.If you want to call Schenn and Couturier emerging stars, then Myers absolutely is one also.

Yes, Myers was injured his 3rd season and he has underachieved all this year.But he is still only 23 and has already put up 2 seasons as a legit #1 defenseman.In fact, Myers is one of the main reasons Ryan Miller won his Vezina.Myers was a stud his rookie year, and was far more impressive then either Schenn or Couturier were in their rookie years (or 2nd and 3rd years).Myers has proven to be a legit top pairing d-man more often then not, so there is no reason to discredit his accomplishments or potential.He is still young for a defenseman and has a wealth of experience and production already.Look at guys like Chara at 23 and compare what Myers has done.Not saying he will be as good as Chara only showing that d-men take longer to fully develop.Even if Myers doesn't become the 60+ point physical d-man that we all wanted him to be after his rookie year I would still be happy if he put up his rookie year production, a smooth skating 50 point d-man who is sound in all facets in the game.The Sabres are trying to make him into Chara, when he was already a Scott Niedermayer type player.And I'm fine with that.

And now we get to Thomas Vanek.You think the Sabres are going to get rid of a guy who has never failed to score atleast 25 goals in every season?!?Thomas Vanek not only has the 3rd most goals for a LW since the 05-06 season, he also has the 7th most goals in that time span.Thomas Vanek's .43 gpg avergae is the 10th highest among all active players.His gpg the last 5 years is even higher then Jarome Iginla's is.He is a legitimate elite goal scorer and a top 5 LW.You think we want Matt Read and Erik Gustaffson for Thomas Vanek

First off, Matt Read is only 2 years younger then Vanek.He has never scored 50 points in a season and averages 48 points per 82 games.Vanek averages 20 more points per 82 games and far more goals.Gustafsson is no more then a 3rd pairing d-man currently and turns 25 this year.So again, if we are dealing our best player and an elite goal scorer, why are the 2 players coming back 26 and 24?I would want players in their teens or early 20's.The funny thing is, even at their advanced age neither Matt Read or Erik Gustafsson have much NHL experience.They have played a career total of 155 career games combined.Tyler Myers had 7 more games played by the age of 21. So yes, you are trying to turn your B Rate Players and Prospects into elite talent/production.

A mid 1st is nice but is nowhere near enough to want to trade our best player and top scorer and a young Calder Winning future #1 d-man.You want those 2, it's Couturier, Schenn and that 1st.Myers is worth more then Couturier and Vanek is worth more then Schenn by himself.The 1st balances it.If you wouldn't give up your top youngsters why should the Sabres give their 2 most valuable players?

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04-02-2013, 03:16 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
If you consider the production that Schenn and Couturier have achieved has made them star players, then Myers is in the same category.

Myers is 23 years old.Won the Calder Trophy during a season he started at 19.He put up 48 points as a rookie, and 37 points the season after that.In Myers first 162 career games he put up 85 points.In Schenn AND Couturier's 207 combined games played between the two of them,They have put up 77 career points.Might I remind you that Tyler Myers is a defenseman.In 45 less games, Myers scored 8 more points.If you want to call Schenn and Couturier emerging stars, then Myers absolutely is one also.

Yes, Myers was injured his 3rd season and he has underachieved all this year.But he is still only 23 and has already put up 2 seasons as a legit #1 defenseman.In fact, Myers is one of the main reasons Ryan Miller won his Vezina.Myers was a stud his rookie year, and was far more impressive then either Schenn or Couturier were in their rookie years (or 2nd and 3rd years).Myers has proven to be a legit top pairing d-man more often then not, so there is no reason to discredit his accomplishments or potential.He is still young for a defenseman and has a wealth of experience and production already.Look at guys like Chara at 23 and compare what Myers has done.Not saying he will be as good as Chara only showing that d-men take longer to fully develop.Even if Myers doesn't become the 60+ point physical d-man that we all wanted him to be after his rookie year I would still be happy if he put up his rookie year production, a smooth skating 50 point d-man who is sound in all facets in the game.The Sabres are trying to make him into Chara, when he was already a Scott Niedermayer type player.And I'm fine with that.

And now we get to Thomas Vanek.You think the Sabres are going to get rid of a guy who has never failed to score atleast 25 goals in every season?!?Thomas Vanek not only has the 3rd most goals for a LW since the 05-06 season, he also has the 7th most goals in that time span.Thomas Vanek's .43 gpg avergae is the 10th highest among all active players.His gpg the last 5 years is even higher then Jarome Iginla's is.He is a legitimate elite goal scorer and a top 5 LW.You think we want Matt Read and Erik Gustaffson for Thomas Vanek

First off, Matt Read is only 2 years younger then Vanek.He has never scored 50 points in a season and averages 48 points per 82 games.Vanek averages 20 more points per 82 games and far more goals.Gustafsson is no more then a 3rd pairing d-man currently and turns 25 this year.So again, if we are dealing our best player and an elite goal scorer, why are the 2 players coming back 26 and 24?I would want players in their teens or early 20's.The funny thing is, even at their advanced age neither Matt Read or Erik Gustafsson have much NHL experience.They have played a career total of 155 career games combined.Tyler Myers had 7 more games played by the age of 21. So yes, you are trying to turn your B Rate Players and Prospects into elite talent/production.

A mid 1st is nice but is nowhere near enough to want to trade our best player and top scorer and a young Calder Winning future #1 d-man.You want those 2, it's Couturier, Schenn and that 1st.Myers is worth more then Couturier and Vanek is worth more then Schenn by himself.The 1st balances it.If you wouldn't give up your top youngsters why should the Sabres give their 2 most valuable players?
None of that is inaccurate, but it also doesn't change the fact that there is a huge difference between being on the 2nd year of an entry level contract versus being on the first year of a 7 year deal that carries a 5.5M cap hit. If Sean Couturier puts up 30 points next season and plays like a low end 3rd liner that's not hurting your team nearly as much as if Tyler Myers is playing like a 3rd pairing defenseman.

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04-02-2013, 03:17 PM
  #46
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I don't think the flyers could come up with a package that would make me want to trade Vanek and Myers unless Giroux was involved and that aint happening.

What about Pommer and Sekera?

For Couts and Coburn
Nope. Where's the #1 dman in that deal for Couts?

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04-02-2013, 03:20 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
If you consider the production that Schenn and Couturier have achieved has made them star players, then Myers is in the same category.

Myers is 23 years old.Won the Calder Trophy during a season he started at 19.He put up 48 points as a rookie, and 37 points the season after that.In Myers first 162 career games he put up 85 points.In Schenn AND Couturier's 207 combined games played between the two of them,They have put up 77 career points.Might I remind you that Tyler Myers is a defenseman.In 45 less games, Myers scored 8 more points.If you want to call Schenn and Couturier emerging stars, then Myers absolutely is one also.
Extremely well said, just deleted most of it for space.

Myers is ridiculously underrated around here, even though he used to overrated. There's a reason he was able to win the Calder, and its not often that players like that just lose their ability. He'll be back, and he is a #1 Defenseman.

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04-02-2013, 03:28 PM
  #48
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Vanek for Simmonds and Couturier. That'd be my asking price, because I think the bidding war for Vanek would ultimately hit that level.

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04-02-2013, 03:37 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
If you consider the production that Schenn and Couturier have achieved has made them star players, then Myers is in the same category.

Myers is 23 years old.Won the Calder Trophy during a season he started at 19.He put up 48 points as a rookie, and 37 points the season after that.In Myers first 162 career games he put up 85 points.In Schenn AND Couturier's 207 combined games played between the two of them,They have put up 77 career points.Might I remind you that Tyler Myers is a defenseman.In 45 less games, Myers scored 8 more points.If you want to call Schenn and Couturier emerging stars, then Myers absolutely is one also.

Yes, Myers was injured his 3rd season and he has underachieved all this year.But he is still only 23 and has already put up 2 seasons as a legit #1 defenseman.In fact, Myers is one of the main reasons Ryan Miller won his Vezina.Myers was a stud his rookie year, and was far more impressive then either Schenn or Couturier were in their rookie years (or 2nd and 3rd years).Myers has proven to be a legit top pairing d-man more often then not, so there is no reason to discredit his accomplishments or potential.He is still young for a defenseman and has a wealth of experience and production already.Look at guys like Chara at 23 and compare what Myers has done.Not saying he will be as good as Chara only showing that d-men take longer to fully develop.Even if Myers doesn't become the 60+ point physical d-man that we all wanted him to be after his rookie year I would still be happy if he put up his rookie year production, a smooth skating 50 point d-man who is sound in all facets in the game.The Sabres are trying to make him into Chara, when he was already a Scott Niedermayer type player.And I'm fine with that.

And now we get to Thomas Vanek.You think the Sabres are going to get rid of a guy who has never failed to score atleast 25 goals in every season?!?Thomas Vanek not only has the 3rd most goals for a LW since the 05-06 season, he also has the 7th most goals in that time span.Thomas Vanek's .43 gpg avergae is the 10th highest among all active players.His gpg the last 5 years is even higher then Jarome Iginla's is.He is a legitimate elite goal scorer and a top 5 LW.You think we want Matt Read and Erik Gustaffson for Thomas Vanek

First off, Matt Read is only 2 years younger then Vanek.He has never scored 50 points in a season and averages 48 points per 82 games.Vanek averages 20 more points per 82 games and far more goals.Gustafsson is no more then a 3rd pairing d-man currently and turns 25 this year.So again, if we are dealing our best player and an elite goal scorer, why are the 2 players coming back 26 and 24?I would want players in their teens or early 20's.The funny thing is, even at their advanced age neither Matt Read or Erik Gustafsson have much NHL experience.They have played a career total of 155 career games combined.Tyler Myers had 7 more games played by the age of 21. So yes, you are trying to turn your B Rate Players and Prospects into elite talent/production.

A mid 1st is nice but is nowhere near enough to want to trade our best player and top scorer and a young Calder Winning future #1 d-man.You want those 2, it's Couturier, Schenn and that 1st.Myers is worth more then Couturier and Vanek is worth more then Schenn by himself.The 1st balances it.If you wouldn't give up your top youngsters why should the Sabres give their 2 most valuable players?
Are you completely incapable of giving our players any credit/praise or do you just choose not to?
Couturier and Schenn are very, very good. I wouldn't even consider trading them for Vanek and Myers. I like both players a lot, but Couturier and Schenn are both top ten picks capable of being two-way 70-PPG players for a long, long time. They don't grow on trees, in fact they're almost as rare as number one defenseman. Before you belittle players like Couturier and Read among others, watch a flyers game or two (besides when they play the Sabres).

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04-02-2013, 03:43 PM
  #50
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Sabres fan here. Of the Big 3 whose contracts are expiring after next season (Vanek, Poms, Miller), Vanek is the one I'd most want to extend. If the Flyers want to take a big risk on making the playoffs this season -- which is a bit foolhardy imo -- then I'd bite the bullet and oblige at Couts + 2013 1st (and something to make salary work, such as Briere) for Vanek+. Flyers fans would hope they sneak into the playoffs where they could do serious damage, we'd hope they finish in the bottom 10 with an outside shot of winning the lottery.

Most Flyers fans are very attached to Couts, but it's the price I'd start at. How Vanek fits into Philly's salary structure is another matter, and the decreased likelihood of being able to extend him probably lowers his value to the Flyers.

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