HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Would the Habs benefit from a Heavyweight enforcer? Part 3

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-31-2013, 11:17 AM
  #226
Habsterix*
@Habsterix
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corncob View Post
The problem is that there seems to be an assumption that there are two camps here 'pro-toughness' and 'anti-toughness' which realistically is not how it stacks up. You do have some posters who think 'physical play' (not going to just restrict it to fighting specifically) is not necessary, but they're pretty much few and far between. You have some on the opposite extreme, like MaxPac and SouthernHab who think we should be picking up any goon who happens to hit the waiver wire and think eternal shame is the result if a fight doesn't happen anytime someone touches a Habs player.

Mostly people are someplace in the middle recognising that physical play does play a part in the make up of a team to some extent or other, but not wanting to sacrifice the current identity of the team to chase some mythical standard of toughness that doesn't exist.

Problem is that the people at the extreme ends of the argument (and the the more numerous and more vocal ones at the Bordelau fetish end particularly) have been quite successful in defining people as either for or against and the debate suffers as a result.
What other members want is their opinion, which should be respected even if it differs from yours or mine. I can only speak for myself here.

I want a physical player who can skate at least 10 minutes a night while not hurting the team, a guy who is bigger than Prust to give him a hand so he doesn't have to face guys like Lucic, and a guy who can and is willing to drop the gloves if/when need be. This is also why I've been pushing so hard for Clowe, as he fits the bill to a tee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Clowe, Lucic, Clarkson are hockey players first that can fight. Prust and Neil are in that grey area between hockey players that can fight and enforcers that can play.
Clowe is slowly turning into the second grouping, while Clarkson has only started becoming a better player in the last couple of years. Either ways, that's the "type" of player the Habs need most... in my opinion of course.

Habsterix* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2013, 02:55 PM
  #227
bud12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I understand perfectly well but you're missing the point. It doesn't matter why they were able to contribute it matters that they DID. The reason an enforcer is a handicap now is because they can't contribute anything besides fighting.
And what Armstrong bring to the team besides nothing?

bud12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2013, 03:11 PM
  #228
Corncob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,733
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
And what Armstrong bring to the team besides nothing?
By no means Armstrong's biggest fan, but realistically what he brings at a minimum is 11 minutes of defensively responsible play per game including a couple of minutes penalty killing.

Corncob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2013, 04:10 PM
  #229
bud12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corncob View Post
By no means Armstrong's biggest fan, but realistically what he brings at a minimum is 11 minutes of defensively responsible play per game including a couple of minutes penalty killing.
we have enough pk boys. no need of Armstrong there. And is 11min is irrevelant.

bud12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2013, 04:34 PM
  #230
Sorinth
Registered User
 
Sorinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,227
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
we have enough pk boys. no need of Armstrong there. And is 11min is irrevelant.
Armstrong frees up our other players to focus more on the offensive side of things. Not only does his PKing mean less PK time for our top lines, he also doesn't need to be protected by being started in the offensive zone. Bordeleau is up at 69.8% offensive zone starts, Armstrong is at 34.1%.

In other words having Bordeleau means more defensive zone draws for Desharnais/Plekanec and less offensive ones.

Sorinth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2013, 05:04 PM
  #231
Corncob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,733
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
we have enough pk boys. no need of Armstrong there. And is 11min is irrevelant.
Tomas Plekanec is playing a minute a game less shorthanded than he was last year. That's the benefit you get from having players on the bottom lines that can play pk.

Ultimately you want your best attacking players to be in the situations where they can use their attacking skills. Hardly irrelevant.

Corncob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2013, 06:24 PM
  #232
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corncob View Post
Well it was clearly a reply to some post(s) and as you didn't quote anyone specifically, hence my query whether you intended it as a reply to the one I posted just previously which had replied to your point....



The problem is that there seems to be an assumption that there are two camps here 'pro-toughness' and 'anti-toughness' which realistically is not how it stacks up. You do have some posters who think 'physical play' (not going to just restrict it to fighting specifically) is not necessary, but they're pretty much few and far between. You have some on the opposite extreme, like MaxPac and SouthernHab who think we should be picking up any goon who happens to hit the waiver wire and think eternal shame is the result if a fight doesn't happen anytime someone touches a Habs player.

Mostly people are someplace in the middle recognising that physical play does play a part in the make up of a team to some extent or other, but not wanting to sacrifice the current identity of the team to chase some mythical standard of toughness that doesn't exist.

Problem is that the people at the extreme ends of the argument (and the the more numerous and more vocal ones at the Bordelau fetish end particularly) have been quite successful in defining people as either for or against and the debate suffers as a result.
If you cared to read (and understand) my posts, you would come to realize that yes, I do want a goon on this team who only plays when Boston, Toronto or Ottawa is on the schedule.

His job would be to fight Thornton, McClaren and Kassian at the beginning of the game. Once the initial anger and adrenalin is done with, he sits on the bench for the rest of the game. He is there, available, if a player on the other team decides to take liberties with a skill player. We have enough young studs who can be double shifted during the game.

The rest of the time, that goon sits in the pressbox.

If you also cared to read my posts, you will find that I am in strong agreement with Habsterix in that we need to have Clowe on this team. There are more Habs fans warming up to having him on this team but there is still a lot of people who do not want Clowe as a Hab.

If we sign Clowe, then the need for a goon diminishes. It still would be nice to also have a DMan who can drop the gloves and be a strong stay at home defensive asset.

Hope this clears up your perception of what I would like to see in Montreal.

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2013, 06:40 PM
  #233
bud12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corncob View Post
Tomas Plekanec is playing a minute a game less shorthanded than he was last year. That's the benefit you get from having players on the bottom lines that can play pk.

Ultimately you want your best attacking players to be in the situations where they can use their attacking skills. Hardly irrelevant.
Armstrong is irrevelant. No way is in the line up if Therrien doesn't have a man crush on him. Steve Mckenna have more skill than him.......

bud12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2013, 07:29 PM
  #234
Corncob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,733
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
Steve Mckenna have more skill than him.......
Err, no. That's why Colby Armstrong has multiple seasons where he got more points than Steve McKenna's whole nhl career.

Corncob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2013, 07:59 PM
  #235
bud12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
and how much pts he have this year?

bud12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 12:35 AM
  #236
ECWHSWI
P.K. is perfect.
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,934
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
and how much pts he have this year?
I'd guess, more than McKenna ?

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 12:36 AM
  #237
ECWHSWI
P.K. is perfect.
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,934
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
Armstrong is irrevelant. No way is in the line up if Therrien doesn't have a man crush on him. Steve Mckenna have more skill than him.......
maybe we should go back to Connie or Martin who had Plekanec playing pretty much every single PK, same Plekanec who always ran out of gaz come april ?

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 01:02 AM
  #238
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,106
vCash: 500
The Habs have done quite nicely this season without that hypothetical enforcer. The Bruins my have more than one but they're not scoring, which has enabled the Habs to compete with them.

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 01:47 AM
  #239
Forsead
Registered User
 
Forsead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Québec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
The Habs have done quite nicely this season without that hypothetical enforcer. The Bruins my have more than one but they're not scoring, which has enabled the Habs to compete with them.
All the guys that fights on the Bruins roster are useful hockey player (Chara, Lucic, Campbell, McQuaid, Thornton), they don't have goon/enforcer, that why IMO their toughness is so much effective.

With a guy like Clowe in the lineup and with Prust, Moen and White it would be pretty similar with the exception of Chara that is just a monster (but who doesn't fight often anyway).

Forsead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 02:03 AM
  #240
habtastic
Registered User
 
habtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mumbai via MTL
Country: India
Posts: 9,209
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
All the guys that fights on the Bruins roster are useful hockey player (Chara, Lucic, Campbell, McQuaid, Thornton), they don't have goon/enforcer, that why IMO their toughness is so much effective.

With a guy like Clowe in the lineup and with Prust, Moen and White it would be pretty similar with the exception of Chara that is just a monster (but who doesn't fight often anyway).
At this point, I'm not opposed to Clowe at all, in fact I think he'd be a good acquisition if used smartly by Therrien.

I am, however against going "all in" for him by giving away what is far more valuable to us in our prospects. Picks, we've got plenty to dispense of. Unfortunately, SJ sounded like they want something meaty. I'm sure Clowe would fit in well here and if we are indeed his favourite childhood team, well we're racking those up quite a bit on this roster. I'm sure it doesn't hurt with the motivation, change of environment thing.

habtastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 09:48 AM
  #241
bud12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
maybe we should go back to Connie or Martin who had Plekanec playing pretty much every single PK, same Plekanec who always ran out of gaz come april ?
during those time, we were good on pk....And do you really think Pleck will ran out of gaz because he will play 1more minute a game?

bud12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 10:24 AM
  #242
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,379
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
during those time, we were good on pk....And do you really think Pleck will ran out of gaz because he will play 1more minute a game?
1 more minute of PK a game for 82 games is a lot of energy left on the ice. Those are the toughest minutes.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 10:50 AM
  #243
bud12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
1 more minute of PK a game for 82 games is a lot of energy left on the ice. Those are the toughest minutes.
please......

bud12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 11:00 AM
  #244
Odelein24
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 488
vCash: 500
A Chris Neil type? Sign me up!
A show fighter who has no real hockey skill? No thanks!

Odelein24 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2013, 06:22 PM
  #245
rabbit4949
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 10
vCash: 500
I believe that this team has plenty of toughness, which I will define as takin' a lickin' and keep on tickin'. This is fairly evident by taking a look at the standings. That being said, I do believe that we need more roughness. This I will define as being the initiating of these lickin's. The Habs should target a guy like Thorburn who is a decent skater and plays on the PK.[ and yes, fight fans, he can drop the gloves.] A good stay at home No. 6 defender like Shane O'Brien would also be wanted. He hits and clears the crease and again fight fans ,he is not shy about dropping the gloves either.He would need a Diaz to get the puck out of the zone. I am not a fan of the staged fight and see no reason to waste precious roster spots on guys that cannot play.However ,I am in favour of retribution for cheap shots directed at our stars.The team mentality should be a swarming defensive response. At a time when game conditions permit, an equal physical force must be directed at an opposing star.i.e. When a goon runs Price ,it is pointless to fight the goon. The correct response is to run the other goalie and say {Carey says hi} If they have dressed their back-up,next game dress Budaj and run their starter. You would be surprised at how quickly game conditions soon begin to once again resemble hockey.

rabbit4949 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 02:23 AM
  #246
Corncob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,733
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit4949 View Post
When a goon runs Price ,it is pointless to fight the goon. The correct response is to run the other goalie and say {Carey says hi} If they have dressed their back-up,next game dress Budaj and run their starter. You would be surprised at how quickly game conditions soon begin to once again resemble hockey.
So, when Lucic ran Ryan Miller last year, if Buffalo had simply deliberately run Tim Thomas in response that would have calmed the game down? I'm slightly dubious.

Can you post some examples of the above situation happening in reality and resulting in the game 'quickly resembling hockey'.

Corncob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 04:31 AM
  #247
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 9,684
vCash: 1707
yeah totally. i mean, if the habs had a heavyweight enforcer, i dunno, we could be like, fourth in the league or something

MasterDecoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 01:12 PM
  #248
bud12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Moen : 2 goals in 34gp
Armstrong: 2 goals in 35gp
Mcgrattan: 2 goals in 13gp


fack that this goon is useless..........

bud12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 01:18 PM
  #249
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 17,618
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
Moen : 2 goals in 34gp
Armstrong: 2 goals in 35gp
Mcgrattan: 2 goals in 13gp


fack that this goon is useless..........
The only two parts of hockey are goals and fights.

Et le But is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 01:22 PM
  #250
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 22,698
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
maybe we should go back to Connie or Martin who had Plekanec playing pretty much every single PK, same Plekanec who always ran out of gaz come april ?
To be fair, that was after 82 games, not 48.

But I don't mind using more depth on the PK. We have plenty of players that can play that role.

Kriss E is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:04 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.