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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Greatest Goalie of All Time #3

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest goalie of all time? #3
Jacques Plante 29 37.18%
Glenn Hall 6 7.69%
Dominik Hasek 19 24.36%
Ken Dryden 1 1.28%
George Hainsworth 0 0%
Bill Durnan 0 0%
Martin Brodeur 14 17.95%
Vladislav Tretiak 8 10.26%
Bernie Parent 1 1.28%
Clint Benedict 0 0%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-16-2006, 12:35 AM
  #26
BM67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Honestly, if Glenn Hall hasn't been selected by now, the voting is very flawed. Hall is the only goaltender to ever be voted the NHL's best 7 times. He won a Smythe and was further voted #2 goaltender in the league 4 times.

Glenn Hall is #1. People just don't do the research.
That's all true, and very nice, but playoffs also factor in, and he doesn't shine there career wise.

Two of Hall's 1st team nods came over Plante by a combined voting margin of 5 points, 108 to 104 in 57-58 and 106 to 105 in 59-60. 7 to 3 doesn't tell the whole story.

Hall and Plante played together in St. Louis for 2 years, lets compare:

Player-GP-Min-W-L-T-GAA-SO/GP-Min-W-L-GAA-SO
Hall69 41-2354-19-12-8-2.17-8/3-131-0-2-2.29-0
Plante69 37-2139-18-12-6-1.96-5/10-589-8-2-1.43-3
Hall70 18-1010-7-8-3-2.91-1/7-421-4-3-2.99-0
Plante70 32-1839-18-9-5-2.19-5/6-324-4-1-1.48-1
Hall 59-3364-26-20-13-2.39-9/10-552-4-5-2.83-0
Plante 69-3978-36-21-11-2.07-10/16-913-12-3-1.45-4

Plante is 2 years older than Hall and came out of a 3 year retirement, and out performed Hall.

Compare Hall's Conn Smythe playoff to Plante's of the next season where he didn't win.

Hall 18-1111-8-10-2.43-1
Plante 10-589-8-2-1.43-3

Compare Plante in 71 when he was a 2nd team all-star to Hall in 69 and Worsley in 68 when they were 1st team members.

Worsley 40-2213-19-9-8-1.98-6
Hall 41-2354-19-12-8-2.17-8
Plante 40-2329-24-11-4-1.88-4 (unofficial record .942 sv%)

Playoff vs regular season career comparison:

Player - RSGP - POGP - RSW - POW - RSW% - POW% - Dif - RSGAA - POGAA - Dif Cups
Hall - 906 _ 115 _ 407 _ 49 _ .545 _ .430 _ -.115 _ 2.49 _ 2.78 _ +0.29 _ 1
Plante - 837 _ 112 _ 435 _ 71 _ .614 _ .664 _ +.050 _ 2.38 _ 2.14 _ -0.24 _ 6

You can't just take the numbers at face value, but Hall really has bad playoff numbers, but it is interesting to note that they look alot like Tony O's

Esposito - 886 _ 99 _ 423 _ 45 _ .566 _ .459 _ -.107 _ 2.92 _ 3.07 _ +0.15 _ 0/1

Hall is great, but Plante is better, so I can't vote for Hall yet.

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Old
08-16-2006, 12:50 AM
  #27
ScaredStreit
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Plante.

Add SMITH! 4 stanley cups, 1 vezina, 1 conn smythe, argubly the best post-season goaltender of all time!

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Old
08-16-2006, 12:59 AM
  #28
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I voted Martin B

Hall gets hurt cause he stayed at the party too long

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Old
08-16-2006, 05:23 AM
  #29
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Fuhr Should Be In There......

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08-16-2006, 09:23 AM
  #30
Psycho Papa Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
So, Glenn Hall is not the greatest because he had the misfortune of spending a lot of his career on bad teams? I don't believe in punishing a guy for the inadequacies of his teammates.

BTW, he won the Smythe playing for the expansion St. Louis Blues.
As indicated in my post, which you either chose to ignore, or failed to read, Hall's Chicago teams in the 60's had some of the best talent. How could you call teams with Hull, Mikita, Pilote and Esposito, bad? But only one cup, whereas guys like Sawchuk and Plante won multiple cups when they had the opportunity to play with similarly talented players. Plus I gave him credit for his time in St. Louis, but plain and simple, he never won a game against a good team in those St. Louis cup runs. Not a single game. If St. Louis had been in the other division, he wouldn't even have got his team into the playoffs, and even if he did it would have been a quick four game exit.

Is he one of the best, absolutely. A case could certainly be made for Hall, but I don't think he's the best. Once Plante is picked in these polls, Hall will get my vote. I personnally have him 3rd on my all-time list after Plante and Roy.


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 08-16-2006 at 09:41 AM.
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Old
08-16-2006, 11:30 AM
  #31
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Just my opinion, but it`s way too early for Brodeur and Tretiak to be getting a lot of votes. Both great goalies; but ahead of Hall and Dryden

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Old
08-16-2006, 11:34 AM
  #32
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Brodeur, add Tony Esposito

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Old
08-16-2006, 08:58 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
As indicated in my post, which you either chose to ignore, or failed to read, Hall's Chicago teams in the 60's had some of the best talent. How could you call teams with Hull, Mikita, Pilote and Esposito, bad? But only one cup, whereas guys like Sawchuk and Plante won multiple cups when they had the opportunity to play with similarly talented players. Plus I gave him credit for his time in St. Louis, but plain and simple, he never won a game against a good team in those St. Louis cup runs. Not a single game. If St. Louis had been in the other division, he wouldn't even have got his team into the playoffs, and even if he did it would have been a quick four game exit.

Is he one of the best, absolutely. A case could certainly be made for Hall, but I don't think he's the best. Once Plante is picked in these polls, Hall will get my vote. I personnally have him 3rd on my all-time list after Plante and Roy.
A lot of teams have two or even three great players but a crappy supporting cast - ESPECIALLY when there are only six teams in the league. Are we going to blame Orr because Boston could only win 2 cups with all of that talent?

Blaming Hall for the misfortunes of the Hawks is very misguided.

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08-16-2006, 09:26 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
A lot of teams have two or even three great players but a crappy supporting cast - ESPECIALLY when there are only six teams in the league. Are we going to blame Orr because Boston could only win 2 cups with all of that talent?

Blaming Hall for the misfortunes of the Hawks is very misguided.
Chicago's supporting cast was far from "crappy." Ken Wharram twice beat Gordie Howe for the first-team all-star right wing spot. Ab McDonald was the left winger on the Scooter Line with Stan Mikita. Moose Vasko was an excellent defenceman, teaming with Pierre Pilote to form one of the best pairings in the league. So it's not like Chicago was a three-man team.

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08-16-2006, 09:27 PM
  #35
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I'm sticking with Brodeur

Add Tony Esposito

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Old
08-16-2006, 10:14 PM
  #36
Psycho Papa Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
A lot of teams have two or even three great players but a crappy supporting cast - ESPECIALLY when there are only six teams in the league. Are we going to blame Orr because Boston could only win 2 cups with all of that talent?

Blaming Hall for the misfortunes of the Hawks is very misguided.
I'm not blaming Hall at all. But when it's a close as it is among the top goalies of all time, I'm using playoff success as a tie breaker. And as stated, Chicago had a more than adequate supporting cast after their three stars.

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Old
08-16-2006, 10:26 PM
  #37
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Plante, and another for Gumper.

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Old
08-16-2006, 11:19 PM
  #38
BM67
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Another note on Hall, is that he has the most appearances by a goalie on the losing side of the Finals.

Lost in 56 in 5 games to Montreal while with Detroit. (Plante)
Lost in 62 in 6 games to Toronto with Chicago. (Bower/Simmons)
Lost in 65 in 7 games to Montreal with Chicago. (Worsley/Hodge)
Lost in 68 in 4 games to Montreal with St. Louis. (Worsley)
Lost in 69 in 4 games, split with Plante, to Montreal with St. Louis. (Vachon)
Lost in 70 in 4 games, split with Plante/Wakely, to Boston with St. Louis. (Cheevers)

All knocking of his playoff record aside, winning one Cup, taking one lose to 7 games, and winning the Conn Smythe in a sweep by the other team, and 7 appearances in the Finals, doesn't look too bad on a resume.

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Old
08-16-2006, 11:27 PM
  #39
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hasek

plante won cups on a stacked habs team

and if you wanna take talent into consideration haske or brodeur would without a doubt whipe the floor with him drunk

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Old
08-16-2006, 11:40 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Cage View Post
hasek

plante won cups on a stacked habs team

and if you wanna take talent into consideration haske or brodeur would without a doubt whipe the floor with him drunk
But in the end, all that matters for goalies is winning. It's what they're judged by. Why do so many people consider Roy the best ever? Because he won. If he didn't have the rings, or the three Conns, nobody would consider him the best ever.

As for your other point, a simple question: What's the single-most important attribute for a goalie to possess? I await your answer.

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Old
08-16-2006, 11:49 PM
  #41
BM67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Cage View Post
hasek

plante won cups on a stacked habs team

and if you wanna take talent into consideration haske or brodeur would without a doubt whipe the floor with him drunk
Probably 90% of modern goaltending can be attributed in part to Plante, so it's to his credit that goalies are better today.

He gave us the mask, raising the arm on icing, raising the arms in victory, advocated for assistant coaches and goalie coaches long before they became common practice, and wrote the first book on the art of goaltending.

He got by far the most fan mail of any Leaf when he was in TO, because he wrote back and included a list of tips for young goalies.

Bernie Parent probably doesn't win his two Conn Smythes if he doesn't spend time in TO with Plante, and is testament to his great hockey mind, which is what kept him great well into his 40s.

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