HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Fedorov vs. Selanne

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-02-2013, 01:21 AM
  #651
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
There was never a large gap between. They were trading elite seasons in 1992-93 and 1993-94, with Fedorov pulling ahead when they both had strong 1995-96 seasons. Then Coffey left Detroit and Fedorov's resume became exclusively supported by the playoffs while Selanne peaked in 1996-97 (2nd in Goals, 2nd in Points), 1997-98 (1st in Goals, Hart Nominee), 1998-99 (1st in Goals, 2nd in Points). Fedorov didn't have three seasons as good as that in the NHL.

The best season? Yes (1994 vs. 1998)
Second best? No (1996 vs. 1999)
Third best? No (2003 vs. 1997)
Fourth best? No (1995 vs. 1993)
Fifth best? No (2000 vs. 1996)
Sixth best? No (1992 vs. 2007)
Seventh best? No (1993 vs. 2011)
Eighth best? No (1997 vs. 2000)
Ninth best? No (2002 vs. 2006)
Tenth best? Now it's getting close again (1991 vs. 2001)
How exactly did you come to that ordering of seasons, and what makes you decide which one is better?

Fedorov from 1993-94 through 1995-96 was better offensively every season. The same was true for 2001-02 through 2003-04. That's six each pre-2004 on offense alone. Selanne takes all four after the 2004-05 lockout.

But as we're at a 10-6 score, how do we decide what kind of role Fedorov's defense plays in this? Fedorov played defense-first hockey; Selanne played offense-only. So logically, one could make the statement that Fedorov's defense is worth just as much as his offense. If you consider that a player has a ~50% chance of getting a point if he is on the ice when a goal is scored, then consider the fact that teams generally get ~15 scoring chances per game, and the average 5.5GPG from the DPE, combined with the historic ~85% scoring ratio of F/D, and we have the following:

~1.46 points awarded per forward line per game
~0.34 points awarded per defense pairing per game
~12 failed/prevented scoring chances per team

If we assume that an elite forward plays 1/3 of the game on average (~20 minutes), then that's ~1.95 points for his line from 2.75 goals.

Furthering that, given that preventing a goal is equivalent to scoring a goal when it comes to actually winning at hockey, a player who prevents 30 goals more than another player, and is involved on 20 fewer offensively, is likely the better player. Selanne/Fedorov is a more extreme example; Selanne's advantage offensively in the late 1990s wasn't worth what Fedorov prevented defensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I've said that Fedorov was better in 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004. I've said that Selanne's injury is the proximate cause for his decline - not his separation from Paul Kariya, as you have claimed.

I will never respond to you again, because you have shown an inability to discuss hockey on HOH without deliberately using strawman arguments and talking about Steve Yzerman.
And I've repeatedly stated that the primary argument in favor of Selanne - his post-lockout renaissance and longevity - is completely wiped away if you insist on making injury excuses for Selanne's poor stretch of years. The Yzerman example was a point that another great offensive player who also relied on his skating suffered a severe knee injury (actually, more severe than Selanne's) and was able to adapt and play at a high level. Selanne spent four years performing at a mediocre level. Whether that was injury or chemistry/support, who knows. But it's a situation where other great skaters (Bure and LaFontaine come to mind) who have suffered knee injuries were not turned into mediocre second liners, but were instead able to maintain a high level of production. In both Bure's case and LaFontaine's case they retired earlier than they *should* have due to injury, but that would have been true of Selanne as well had the lockout not occurred in 2004.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 01:23 AM
  #652
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
I always thought that it was the Messier-Line that stopped the Green Unit from even attempting a shot on goal for the last 1:26

I'm sure Koharski was willing to rob the Soviets by arbitrarily disallowing a Makarov goal but those blasted Russians refused to even give him that, choosing instead to have their vaunted Green Unit wilt under pressure from the Messier line and thereby rob Koharski of even having the chance to steal the game.
Yzerman shut down Gretzky in 1987 in the Campbell Conference Finals, but Messier was unstoppable because the Wings had nobody to put on him with Yzerman on Gretzky. Does that mean Messier>Yzerman>Gretzky, with Makarov somewhere after Messier?

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 09:14 AM
  #653
Yamaguchi*
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
I always thought that it was the Messier-Line that stopped the Green Unit from even attempting a shot on goal for the last 1:26

I'm sure Koharski was willing to rob the Soviets by arbitrarily disallowing a Makarov goal but those blasted Russians refused to even give him that, choosing instead to have their vaunted Green Unit wilt under pressure from the Messier line and thereby rob Koharski of even having the chance to steal the game.


I guess you know what I was talking about. The uncalled penalty on Hawerchuk for hooking a Russkie right before Mario Lemieux has scored the winner.

Yamaguchi* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 11:52 AM
  #654
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,296
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Don't know where you've ever seen any of us point to one single factor as THE reason for anything, but the linemates aspect has been discussed in enough detail to not bring it back around now. It's not even a matter of linemates vs health for me, as I don't find it that difficult to see the symptoms of both (not in memory, nor in hindsight). As for the bolded, I still say you have to be biased toward raw offensive numbers (even more dangerous with goal scoring wingers, imo) to so easily claim the year ranges you list there. Lots to consider (face to face meetings in the playoffs, for one example among many), as this thread has hopefully somewhat proven.
How on Earth can you stand by your belief that Selanne's "drop to a 32 point player over 70+ games was equal parts having been robbed of his special skills AND not being able to rekindle any kind of "real" chemistry with Kariya"?

Equal Parts?

Selanne was on a line with his two best friends in the NHL: Joe Sakic and Paul Kariya, two players who perfectly compliment a healthy Selanne's game. Any lack of chemistry is a direct product of being injured. You can't go from arguing that Kariya inflates Selanne's production in 2000 to arguing that Kariya is 50% responsible for Selanne's decrease in production in 2004.

Selanne's injury perfectly overlaps with the timeline of his decreased production. Trying to hang even half of it on his chemistry with Kariya and Sakic (because that's somehow a worse set of linemates for him than Kariya/Rucchin and McDonald/Kunitz and Koivu/Blake) is absolute trash.


Oh, and go ahead and make an argument for Fedorov's second-best year (1996) against Selanne's second-best year (1999). And keep going down the line. Tell me when Fedorov starts to have the better season over Selanne again.

Face-to-face meetings in the playoffs? Which one was matched up against Nicklas Lidstrom again? Who was Fedorov skating against? Darren Van Impe? I'm shocked (shocked) that Detroit advanced.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You say "exclusively supported by the playoffs", as if you haven't argued that Roy should be considered above Hasek BECAUSE of his playoff resume and his ability to raise his play to a level wins Cups, and prove his calibre when it mattered... Results. Matter.
Oh, because Patrick Roy was a one-hit wonder in the regular season?

Laughable comparison. Fedorov is a one-time All-Star (albeit at a tough position) getting compared to Selanne, a four-time All-Star (same position as Jagr and Bure, no big deal). Roy and Hasek were both six-time All-Stars, with one having Gretzky-esque playoffs.

Where is your parallel between Sergei Fedorov and Patrick Roy? What has Fedorov done in the regular season that is comparable to being top-ten in save percentage 15 times, or being named an All-Star/Vezina nominee eight times? In Fedorov's second-best season (1996) he was, what, the fifth or sixth best skater, depending on where you rank Joe Sakic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I'd be more interested in reading something less easily dismissed.
EDIT: I'll just remove my retort and let the counterpoints do the talking.


Last edited by quoipourquoi: 04-02-2013 at 12:30 PM.
quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 03:20 PM
  #655
Yamaguchi*
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
Sergei Fedorov would get you 20 points in the postseason plus he was excellent defensively and would win you a Stanley Cup.

How can you compare a one-dimensional top class shooter to a genious two-way forward?

Yamaguchi* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 03:25 PM
  #656
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Sergei Fedorov would get you 20 points in the postseason plus he was excellent defensively and would win you a Stanley Cup.

How can you compare a one-dimensional top class shooter to a genious two-way forward?
Last time I checked TEAMS won Stanley Cups, not individual players.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 03:29 PM
  #657
Yamaguchi*
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Last time I checked TEAMS won Stanley Cups, not individual players.

Exactly. Fedorov was worth the whole team.

This is the first time I agree with you on something in this forum, me old son.

Yamaguchi* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 03:30 PM
  #658
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Exactly. Fedorov was worth the whole team.

This is the first time I agree with you on something in this forum, me old son.
If you are incapable of making a serious point why do you post?

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 03:38 PM
  #659
Yamaguchi*
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
If you are incapable of making a serious point why do you post?
I was going to ask you the same question.

Yamaguchi* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 03:49 PM
  #660
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
I was going to ask you the same question.
^^^^^ Proving my point

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 03:50 PM
  #661
Yamaguchi*
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
^^^^^ Proving my point

Fedorov > Selanne. This is obvious

Yamaguchi* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 03:58 PM
  #662
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Fedorov > Selanne. This is obvious
Apparently not, as the 27 pages of posts attest to.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 04:01 PM
  #663
Yamaguchi*
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Apparently not, as the 27 pages of posts attest to.
Ask Gretzky or Scotty Bowman.

Yamaguchi* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 04:02 PM
  #664
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Ask Gretzky or Scottie Bowman.
You mean the same Wayne Gretzky who's "Oh he's the best player ever" count has been clicking steadily up towards 200 different players? That Wayne Gretzky?

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 04:04 PM
  #665
Yamaguchi*
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
You mean the same Wayne Gretzky who's "Oh he's the best player ever" count has been clicking steadily up towards 200 different players? That Wayne Gretzky?


Please provide me with 200 links to the Gretzky's quotations

Yamaguchi* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 04:06 PM
  #666
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Please provide me with 200 links to the Gretzky's quotations
Engaging in more frivolous muddying of the waters?

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 04:09 PM
  #667
King Forsberg
21 68 88 16 44 28
 
King Forsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 5,739
vCash: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You really don't want to bring up '02. You know, when Selanne played a full season and only got 54 points. Played another full season the next year and only got 64 points. And you're pointing to Fedorov's 68 points as a "weakness"? Those 68 points, second on the team to Shanahan's 75, contributed to a 51 win, 116 point season in the standings for the Wings. To put it in further perspective, Fedorov was the highest scoring centre on the 2nd highest scoring team in the league that year. That's a successful team in the DPE for you.
im sure you'll fail to even mention that Selanne played hurt because that would hurt your argument. But th reason I mention 2002 is Because someone bought up 2004 with Selanne. Fedorov played with rediculous amounts of talents and still only had 68 points. I'm not site why you're bringing up team accomplishments. There's a big difference between who's a better player and what you're arguing in this point.


Quote:
If you've read the thread, you've seen plenty so far. I sense you're waiting for one or two specific names to be dropped, and have cases already prepared.
I don't think anyone here defending Selanne has brought up line mates. This is about post lockout line mates. I don't have any arguments lined up. I just wanted a response.


Quote:
Instead of setting up a position that no one is even claiming, why don't you do your own homework to figure out how much impact these guys had on your understanding of Fedorov? You probably already suspect, as I do, that it probably won't yield anything worth the effort.
I've been told Fedorov didn't play with Lidstrom or Coffey and never played with defensemen as good as Niedermayer or Pronger. Both Fedorov and Selanne benefitted from good d men.


Quote:
And he totally gets credit for that. But imo, Selanne on the end of Kariya generated scoring plays gets credit divvied up
like Guerin on the end of Thornton generated scoring plays circa the same era, or Shanahan on the end of Janney, Yzerman, and Fedorov generated scoring plays before that.
Why does it get divvied up? Both of your examples are examples of a lesser player playing with a hall of fame offensive player. I think most would agree that Selanne is a lot better than Kariya in an all time sense and maybe even in those seasons. Both benefitted form each other, lets not make it seem like Selanne was a lesser player that was spoon fed from Kariya.


Quote:
Yeah, that's going too far, imo. Similarly, no offensive advantage you can find for Selanne in any season translates into enough value to rank him above Fedorov "overall" - essentially all the way up to the lockout.
Selanne's seasons for 97-2000 more than make up for Fedorovs defensive advantage. I don't think defense makes up 20-40 points on offense. 96 where their offense was very similar I'd say the defense makes up the small advantage Selanne had in goals. And why not bring up post lockout? Even if Fedorov was playing Selke defense, which he wasn't, he's not even close to Selanne.


Quote:
How deep are you actually willing to dig? Because you seem to be avoiding my posts which probe deeper into what fans of either guy were watching game to game back then, for example, and I see you jumping in on the easier points to attack in other posts instead, and still asking for previously provided/discussed information as well.
what? I have not dodged your posts at all. I responded to Eva because he/she responded to me. What are your points that probe deeper? I don't by your argument of multi point games or post game star awards. The latter is incredibly weak for an argument. I also don't buy your multi point game arguments. Point totals at the end of the season are a much better measure of a players offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Who did Fedorov play ON A LINE WITH in the NHL, who was better IN THE NHL than Zhamnov? Or Tkachuk? Or Kariya? Or McDonald? Or Ryan?

Umm... uhhhh...

Yeah.
that Steve Yzerman guy was pretty good. And Shanahan. Selanne has hardly played with Ryan. Ryan plays with Getzlaf and Perry.


Quote:
Fedorov played through plenty of injuries. In the 1996 playoffs he was playing with a broken rib and played multiple games on it, and then had another rib broken on a check by Aaron Miller. He ended up coming back after the Wings doctor fixed him up so he could breathe without immense pain. And dominated the next couple of games.
Your point? Selanne's injury was one that took away his biggest asset, speed. Dominating a couple of games in the playoffs isn't the same as playing a whole season injured. That season 2002, Selanne was only 14 points behind Fedorov who was playing with arguably the best team assembled.


Quote:
It only works out to one point (rounded down) as a projection if you use total points. When making projections, it's better to separate goals and assists. In Fedorov's particular instance, he had exactly one goal for every two games, so that rounded up. And he had more assists than goals, so that rounded up. But in total, it didn't work out to two points per game on the average; just 1.37 points. And I DID address this in the original post; the initial projection was made with separate GPG and APG (resulting in two points) and then I noted that projecting points alone only yields a single-point increase from 107 to 108. Selanne, similarly, sees a one-point drop from PPG or a two-point drop from GPG+APG if projected to Fedorov's games.

Furthermore, my main point was simply that Fedorov has the better PPG. That is, was, and will be true for the 1995-96 season regardless of whether you choose to agree with me on anything else. That is a statistical fact. And it was the third year in a row Fedorov had a better PPG.
You still claimed that Fedorov would have scored 2 points in 1 game based on his PPG. I'm not sure why you made such a long post on something so minuscule. Fedorov had a decimal point better ppg than Selanne. Meanwhile Selanne still had more goals and more points.

King Forsberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 04:11 PM
  #668
King Forsberg
21 68 88 16 44 28
 
King Forsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 5,739
vCash: 200
Don't even bother responding to Yamaguchi.

King Forsberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 04:14 PM
  #669
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Don't even bother responding to Yamaguchi.
Yeah, I know. I got sucked into it. Time for a nice slug of coffee and back to responding to posts I can actually take seriously

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 04:16 PM
  #670
Yamaguchi*
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Yeah, I know. I got sucked into it. Time for a nice slug of coffee and back to responding to posts I can actually take seriously

My Jack Daniel's = Fedorov
Your coffee = Selanne

JD >> Coffee

Yamaguchi* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 04:18 PM
  #671
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
My Jack Daniel's = Fedorov
Your coffee = Selanne

JD >> Coffee
All of which goes to prove the benefits of posting whilst wide awake as opposed to posting whilst drunk.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 04:20 PM
  #672
Yamaguchi*
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
All of which goes to prove the benefits of posting whilst wide awake as opposed to posting whilst drunk.

If I was drunk, I would have posted that Selanne >> Fedorov

Yamaguchi* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 06:33 PM
  #673
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 24,856
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
How on Earth can you stand by your belief that Selanne's "drop to a 32 point player over 70+ games was equal parts having been robbed of his special skills AND not being able to rekindle any kind of "real" chemistry with Kariya"?

Equal Parts?

Selanne was on a line with his two best friends in the NHL: Joe Sakic and Paul Kariya, two players who perfectly compliment a healthy Selanne's game. Any lack of chemistry is a direct product of being injured. You can't go from arguing that Kariya inflates Selanne's production in 2000 to arguing that Kariya is 50% responsible for Selanne's decrease in production in 2004.
Selanne was healthy, but didn't work as well as he used to. That's different from actually being injured, imo, but you're certainly free to adopt a differing opinion where every player with a serious injury gets to claim it as an excuse in perpetuity. Kariya, at his peak, did "inflate" Selanne's scoring at one point back when. Post lock-out differences from the DPE and possibly the most offensively deep generation of the Ducks have been 'inflating" his (and everyone else) ever since, too, on top of a boost from a sufficient recovery time after successful surgery, but it's all about understanding the differences in degree from situation to situation, season to season, environment to environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Selanne's injury perfectly overlaps with the timeline of his decreased production. Trying to hang even half of it on his chemistry with Kariya and Sakic (because that's somehow a worse set of linemates for him than Kariya/Rucchin and McDonald/Kunitz and Koivu/Blake) is absolute trash.
Well what can I tell you? TSN listed the Kariya/Selanne FA signings in Colorado among their top 25 free agent busts of all time (here's a link to the thread on the Avs' board from the time, haven't turned up a TSN link yet). Last year, Brad Kutzberg from from Bleacher Report listed Selanne, specifically his FA acquisition by the Avs, as the 14th worst FA signing ever (link). Kind of interestingly, two years earlier, different contributor, same site: "After a brief and overall regrettable stop with Western Conference rival San Jose, Selanne rejoined his ex-teammate Paul Kariya in Colorado. His play and numbers continued to decline as the once promising pair failed to recapture their previous magic."

It was waaay less "boo hoo" about Selanne and his prolonged "injured" status than you think it should have been. But I don't think anyone is even arguing that Selanne was "better" than Fedorov during any point in the period we're even talking about, so no need to belabor the point beyond maybe asking you to control yourself a bit on labeling this dissenting opinion or that counter-point as "trash" when you're clearly no more of an authority on the subject than anyone else offering serious discussion here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Oh, and go ahead and make an argument for Fedorov's second-best year (1996) against Selanne's second-best year (1999). And keep going down the line. Tell me when Fedorov starts to have the better season over Selanne again.

Face-to-face meetings in the playoffs? Which one was matched up against Nicklas Lidstrom again? Who was Fedorov skating against? Darren Van Impe? I'm shocked (shocked) that Detroit advanced.
They played together in the same league, and against each other internationally, for many, many years. At which points along the line do you think anyone would have gladly given up Fedorov to get Selanne ("in a vacuum", to emphasize skill/impact/value and eliminate team "need" diversions)? Obviously I see the pitfalls of diving down the rabbit hole of arguing against any inconsistencies I find in your reckoning "system" along the way WHILE also providing substance for/against either guy. I don't get tunnel vision on the offensive stats of one team's first line of offense when the contribution of another guy is largely responsible for securing 100+ point seasons in the standings and multiple championships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Oh, because Patrick Roy was a one-hit wonder in the regular season?
"One-hit wonder in the regular season" says it all, really. I mean, I'd argue he was clearly better in all of '93/94, '94/95, and '95/96, and that doesn't even get us to those 100/110 point often division leading seasons (despite competing with the Sakic/Forsberg Avs), even when Yzerman
was playing on what I'd consider even less of a knee than Selanne at his worst. Those don't get chalked up to some combination of magic and Lidstrom to you?

But why try to steer this away from the original point about how you agree that players who display particular excellence in the playoffs deserve a "boost" in "overall" reckoning, even against someone who might have a more sparkling regular season record but not have had relatively as many chances to build a playoff resume?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Laughable comparison. Fedorov is a one-time All-Star (albeit at a tough position) getting compared to Selanne, a four-time All-Star (same position as Jagr and Bure, no big deal). Roy and Hasek were both six-time All-Stars, with one having Gretzky-esque playoffs.

Where is your parallel between Sergei Fedorov and Patrick Roy? What has Fedorov done in the regular season that is comparable to being top-ten in save percentage 15 times, or being named an All-Star/Vezina nominee eight times? In Fedorov's second-best season (1996) he was, what, the fifth or sixth best skater, depending on where you rank Joe Sakic?
Are you even serious? I thought my wording in the original suggestion was quite clear. Is it your contention that Fedorov isn't one of the best forwards in the "modern era" of the NHL playoffs? 3 Cup rings, only player in history besides Trottier and Bossy with the 4 consecutive 20 point post seasons, 3rd behind only Sakic and Jagr with post season points between the entire stretch between his first season '91 and retirement in '09, multiple times emerged as the team's leading scorer in the playoffs (often with a higher PPG than the regular season) after being found behind Yzerman in the regular scoring lists, the added dimension of elite shutdown skills, his regular season production/results while "taking it easy" still measuring well (even if necessarily not topping) an "elite" player like Selanne at his "peak"... etc.

Basically, or essentially, the Fedorov version of what I believe is pretty similar to the meat and potatoes of what you (pretty sure it was you) thought one of the strongest cases for Roy over Hasek was: repeated post season success (team and indiv.), more post season success (team and indiv.), championships to prove it, statistical improvement over the regular season, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
EDIT: I'll just remove my retort and let the counterpoints do the talking.
Probably saved me even more typing, so... thanks?

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 08:27 PM
  #674
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,296
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Selanne was healthy
Thanks for reminding me once again that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The New York Times, February 21, 2006
He bounded down the nine steps leading from the dressing room to the rink Monday as if he were wearing sneakers instead of skates. Teemu Selanne was the last player on the ice for Finland's practice at Torino Esposizioni, but that was not why he was hot-footing it.

He was hurrying because he could.

In 2004, Selanne, whose nickname is the Finnish Flash, was hobbled by a chronic left knee injury. At the World Cup that year, he looked so slow, so feeble and, worst of all, so dispirited nobody, least of all Selanne, could have predicted that he would come back to lead all scorers at the Winter Games.

"My biggest motivation to come back was I knew when I'm healthy what I can do," said Selanne, a wing who has six goals in four games for Finland (4-0), which will face Germany on Tuesday in the last game of round-robin play.

With 16 shots, Selanne is scoring at a 37.5 percent clip. He is the leading scorer for the Anaheim Mighty Ducks with 26 goals and 54 points and a leading candidate for the N.H.L.'s comeback player of the year award.

"My knee in 2004 was so bad, I couldn't skate," said Selanne, a four-time Olympian. "I decided after that World Cup that I'm never going to play like that anymore. There's no way. If the knee is not going to be as good as I want, I'll go play goal for somebody."

Selanne, 35, is as nimble with the one-liners as he is with the one-timers. In no way does he fit the stereotype of Finns put forth by the 19th-century Russian lecturer Yakov Karlovich Grot, among others, as a people who are gloomy, reserved and suspicious of strangers.

"Teemu is the most extroverted, upbeat Finn," Selanne's agent, Don Baizley, said Monday by telephone from Winnipeg, Manitoba. "For him, life is a bowl of cherries."

Two years ago was the pits for Selanne, a former first-round draft pick who had 76 goals and 132 points as a rookie with the Winnipeg Jets in 1992-93. He signed a $5.8 million contract with Colorado and was supposed to help the Avalanche win the Stanley Cup.

Instead, Selanne endured one of the worst seasons of his career, finishing with 16 goals and 32 points, and the Avalanche was eliminated in the second round of the playoffs by San Jose. Selanne did not make an issue of the fact he was all but skating on one leg. He tried to act as if everything were O.K., but his pained expression gave him away.

"I didn't want to make a big deal about it, but it was really bothering me," Selanne said. "We did a couple of little procedures to try to buy some time. I knew every day when I went to practices that every stride was going to hurt. My left leg had no power. I couldn't use my speed. I couldn't play at the level I wanted to play. So you lose the passion and the fun."

Selanne did not want to play in the 2004 World Cup. His countrymen talked him into it. "The guys were saying even you at 80 percent is still better than somebody else," he said.

The Finns advanced to the final, losing to Canada, 3-2. Selanne was shut down in the final. Saku Koivu and Jere Lehtinen were his linemates then, as they are now. "I came and did what I could, but it was hard," Selanne said. "Especially when I had expectations that are so high."

The Finnish sportswriters traded their pens for penknives. "He was a little bit seeming like a has-been," the journalist Niki Juusela said Monday. "I think in general the feeling was that he was done."

Did Selanne think so, too? "A little bit," he said. "I didn't know. It was tough."

The lockout that cost the N.H.L. the 2004-5 season was Selanne's salvation. He had reconstructive surgery on the knee and went through 10 months of rehabilitation.

Selanne can look back and see that his recent disappointments were blessings in disguise. If the Avalanche had won the Stanley Cup, Selanne might have retired in 2004. If not for the lockout, he would have probably retired in 2004. Either way, he would not be having the Games of his life.

"It was just perfect how it worked out," said Selanne, who signed a one-year, $1 million contract with Anaheim in August and is talking about coming back for a 14th season.

"I think Teemu's been working pretty hard to get back to this level," said Jari Kurri, who was the first Finn to score 1,000 points in the N.H.L. Last month, Selanne became the second (and the seventh European) to do so. "I think you can see in his face that he's having fun."

Selanne is back in his country's good graces. "It's Teemu-mania now in Finland," Kurri, the Finnish team's general manager, said with a laugh.

The reason is as plain as the smile on Selanne's face.

"He's totally back," Juusela said. "He's one of the best again."

Yeah, he was perfectly healthy.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2013, 10:33 PM
  #675
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
that Steve Yzerman guy was pretty good. And Shanahan. Selanne has hardly played with Ryan. Ryan plays with Getzlaf and Perry.
Perhaps I should have been slightly more specific in my wording and included "at the point in their career they were playing with Fedorov". Because Yzerman did play on Fedorov's line for part of 2001-02, along with Shanahan, but Yzerman then and Shanahan then were not better than Zhamnov was when he played with Selanne. It would be like saying that the 1995 Red Wings had the best defense corps ever assembled; it was

Lidstrom/Coffey
Rouse/Konstantinov
Fetisov/Ramsey
Howe

That's three of the four best defensemen of the ~1980s, plus the best defenseman of the period from 1995 until now. Another who was on track to challenge for that spot until his career was ended by a car accident, one who can make a legitimate HHOF case as a defensive defenseman on NHL+international play, and one of the best stay-at-homes from the late-80s/90s. But none of them were in their primes.

Imagine that group, all in their primes. Any defense that would be forced to scratch a prime Bob Rouse (because it'd be him on primes) is just unfair.

Quote:
Your point? Selanne's injury was one that took away his biggest asset, speed. Dominating a couple of games in the playoffs isn't the same as playing a whole season injured. That season 2002, Selanne was only 14 points behind Fedorov who was playing with arguably the best team assembled.
Go back to my point about Yzerman's knee injury. Yzerman went knee-first into a goal post. He lost speed and agility that he never recovered. Ended the season with 64 GP, 50-52-102. Over 80, that projects to 63-65-128. What happened the next season, after Yzerman had rested all summer, and adapted to his new skating speed?

He scored 65 goals and 155 points. Gretzky/Lemieux territory.

The following season, he hit 62-65-127, almost the exact rate from 1987-88.

Yzerman's knee injury was much more severe; why did it not affect him the way Selanne's allegedly affected him?

Quote:
You still claimed that Fedorov would have scored 2 points in 1 game based on his PPG. I'm not sure why you made such a long post on something so minuscule. Fedorov had a decimal point better ppg than Selanne. Meanwhile Selanne still had more goals and more points.
I claimed that Fedorov would have scored 1 goal and 1 assist based on separate GPG and APG, making 2 points. I also stated IN THE ORIGINAL POST YOU ARE DISPUTING that if you used simple PPG, Fedorov only gained one point, but he had a slightly higher PPG overall (contrary to the initial assertion that their PPG was identical).
That you refuse to comprehend this is absolutely unbelievable.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:55 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.