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Messier vs. Jagr

View Poll Results: Messier vs. Jagr
Messier by a mile 87 59.18%
Slight edge to the Moose 29 19.73%
Dead even 4 2.72%
Jagr by a hair over the bald one 13 8.84%
Jagr by a bunch 14 9.52%
Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-16-2006, 08:24 AM
  #126
Fletch
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Forsberg?

that came out of left field (I'd take Sakic over Forsberg though, so might as well add Sakic too).

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08-16-2006, 08:30 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucker316 View Post
Where do you keep getting Mess as a top 5 player anyway? I see Richard, Wayne, Mario, Orr, Bobby Hull, Howe, Yzerman, AND Jagr, not to mention Forsberg, as better than him.
Are you KIDDING me? Here are the top 5 players of all time: 1) Gretzky 2) Mess 3) Howe 4) Maryo 5) Orr

That's it. Jagr is now a top-10 player of all time? Yzerman is now better than Mess? Pray tell what can you point to as to be able to support your rather flimsy conclusions? Forsberg is now the greatest of the great?
Quote:
As for Jagre knocking on the door of points Mess totalled...yeah he will.
Jagr is going to play another 4 years and average 114 points? Or another 5 years and score 90+ every single year? Not to mention popping in around 40 or so goals per year?

Gretzky is the greatest of all-time. None are touching him. Mess is second only to him in offensive categories. To casually drop Jagr into the same breath is a rather big leap of faith.

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08-16-2006, 08:32 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by JerseyRangers View Post
You've just knocked out whatever credibility you might have had with that statement. WOW! Hull, Yzerman, Forsberg and Jagr all better than the 2nd leading scorer in NHL history.
You took the words right out of my mouth (or out of my fingers to be precise).

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08-16-2006, 12:33 PM
  #129
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Jagr doesn't even belong in the same class

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08-16-2006, 12:42 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Here are the top 5 players of all time: 1) Gretzky 2) Mess 3) Howe 4) Maryo 5) Orr
I like your top 5 but I'm surprised you have Orr so low. I wouldnt rank him anywhere below 2, maybe even as 1b. I DEFINITELY wouldnt have Maryo ahead of him.

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08-16-2006, 01:43 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
I like your top 5 but I'm surprised you have Orr so low. I wouldnt rank him anywhere below 2, maybe even as 1b. I DEFINITELY wouldnt have Maryo ahead of him.
I may get flammed for this, but I never saw Orr as a potential best player of all-time type. I think he's def. top 5, but I just cannot help but think that had he not been hurt and that "mythical" what if conversation comes up, that he doesn't quite get as much hype.

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08-16-2006, 02:23 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I may get flammed for this, but I never saw Orr as a potential best player of all-time type. I think he's def. top 5, but I just cannot help but think that had he not been hurt and that "mythical" what if conversation comes up, that he doesn't quite get as much hype.
I kind of agree. Orr is a top-5, but not in contention with the others, IMO. However, being called the 5th greatest player of all time is certainly no insult.

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08-16-2006, 02:34 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I may get flammed for this, but I never saw Orr as a potential best player of all-time type. I think he's def. top 5, but I just cannot help but think that had he not been hurt and that "mythical" what if conversation comes up, that he doesn't quite get as much hype.
Eh, this isnt Kofax we are talking about here, even without his injury Orr's 8 Norris, 3 Hart, 2 Art Ross and 2 Conn Smythe trophies speak for themselves; most people dont get that much hardware in 2 careers. He is easily the greatest defenseman ever, and put up points that rivaled most dynamic forwards.

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08-16-2006, 02:40 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
Eh, this isnt Kofax we are talking about here,
Not to take this discussion on a different tangent, but for my money, Koufax is one the greatest pitchers of all time. People like to compare Pedro's run with the Sox as something similar, but in reality, his numbers do not even come close to Sandy's. It is quite possible that had he not been injured, Koufax would have been the greatest pitcher of all time (with all due respect to Walter Johnson & Clemens).

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08-16-2006, 03:27 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
Eh, this isnt Kofax we are talking about here, even without his injury Orr's 8 Norris, 3 Hart, 2 Art Ross and 2 Conn Smythe trophies speak for themselves; most people dont get that much hardware in 2 careers. He is easily the greatest defenseman ever, and put up points that rivaled most dynamic forwards.
No doubt or disagreement whatsoever on those points. For my money he is the greatest defenseman to play the game, and arguably in my top 5. I'd just rank a few guys ahead of him. What I meant was more of people ranking him right there with Gretzky or as the defensive equiavlent of Gretzky and that I don't really agree with.

In my eyes there is Gretzky, in a class by himself, and then there a group of guys whom you could make case for any as the second best. That group includes Messier, Orr, Howe, Richard and Lemieux.

After that I see another a little gap with guys like Yzerman, Hull, Francis, Bourque and so on and so forth.

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08-16-2006, 04:06 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Not to take this discussion on a different tangent, but for my money, Koufax is one the greatest pitchers of all time. People like to compare Pedro's run with the Sox as something similar, but in reality, his numbers do not even come close to Sandy's. It is quite possible that had he not been injured, Koufax would have been the greatest pitcher of all time (with all due respect to Walter Johnson & Clemens).
I'm too young to have seen Sandy Koufax pitch (Walter Johnson too for that matter), but I'd take Bob Gibson over Clemens any day of the week and twice in the World Series. That man had a look on the mound that scared the hell out of me. And a pitching arm to go with it.

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08-16-2006, 04:10 PM
  #137
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That man had a look on the mound that scared the hell out of me.
Really? How well did you hit off him?

Sorry couldn't resist.

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08-16-2006, 04:49 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
I'm too young to have seen Sandy Koufax pitch (Walter Johnson too for that matter), but I'd take Bob Gibson over Clemens any day of the week and twice in the World Series. That man had a look on the mound that scared the hell out of me. And a pitching arm to go with it.
Gibson vs. Clemens would make for an interesting debate. Personally, if I had one game that HAD to be won, Koufax would be the man over anybody in history. He would be followed closely by a healthy (10 functioning toes) Dizzy Dean.

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08-16-2006, 09:23 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Are you KIDDING me? Here are the top 5 players of all time: 1) Gretzky 2) Mess 3) Howe 4) Maryo 5) Orr
Good list. Won't get much of an argument from me other than numbers 2-5 are so close that its hard to decide the order (for me anyway). Never really saw Howe play except for his stint in the WHL when he was way too old to be a force anymore. First time I can honestly say I remember watching Orr play was in the 74 Cup finals against the Flyers. By then he wasn't the player he had once been though he was still very good. Saw way too much of Maryo for my liking but gotten give him his props. So without any further procrastination my top 5 (if anyone is interested) looks something like:

1) Gretz
2) Orr
3a) Maryo
3b) Mess
5) Howe

Could really be underrating Howe and chances are alot of people may have him as #2 on the list.

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Old
08-16-2006, 09:39 PM
  #140
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1994 Conference Finals. Game 6.

Enough said.

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08-16-2006, 09:47 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I may get flammed for this, but I never saw Orr as a potential best player of all-time type. I think he's def. top 5, but I just cannot help but think that had he not been hurt and that "mythical" what if conversation comes up, that he doesn't quite get as much hype.
Did you see Orr during his peak years? Hard to imagine you could have seen him and still place him below 2nd greatest ever.

It's close but he would be my first pick of all of them, edging out Gretz.

If he hadn't gotten hurt his legend would be far greater than it already is.

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08-16-2006, 10:05 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Did you see Orr during his peak years? Hard to imagine you could have seen him and still place him below 2nd greatest ever.

It's close but he would be my first pick of all of them....
Ditto. I respect those who place him lower, but his legend has nothing to do with his injuries and career being cut short.

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08-16-2006, 11:38 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Ditto. I respect those who place him lower, but his legend has nothing to do with his injuries and career being cut short.
And, IMO, his career with injuries is a ton more illustrious than Mary-Oh!'s career filled with injuries as well.

I have it as:

1. Gretz
2. Orr
3. Howe
4a. Messier
4b. Mary-Oh!

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08-17-2006, 03:49 AM
  #144
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Watch old footage of Orr, and you'll see a player dominate the ice. He could walk end to end, with entire teams doing little more than just watching. Orr definetly belongs in that company.


Last edited by WheresBarnaby: 08-17-2006 at 04:19 AM. Reason: spelling
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08-17-2006, 08:21 AM
  #145
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Orr Notes

A couple of things:

I saw him do things that not even Gretzky could do.

One time Boston was playing Montreal and Cournoyer was heading in alone on a breakaway. He may have been the fastest skater in the league. All of a sudden you saw a blade of a stick behind him. In another second, that blade lifted Cournoyer's stick, took possession of the puck and headed in the opposite direction. Cournoyer looked like something supernatural had just occurred.

Another time, at MSG, Orr was behind his own net with the puck and killing time. The crowd screamed at Gilbert to go and get him because time was running out. Gilbert probably knew what would happen but circled the net and went after Orr. Orr responded by skating out and then circled back around the net a couple of times with Gilbert in hot pursuit. They were then back in their original positions. It was unbelievable.

Orr had the single best shot from the point that I ever saw. It was lightning fast, was the quickest release I ever saw and was deadly accurate. His backswing on his shot was the shortest distance I ever saw.

When Orr played there was no argument over who the best player in the game was. None.

Forgetting about stats for a second, no athlete has ever dominated his playing surface like Orr did. At least that I saw.

You can argue Gretzky was better and I couldn't criticize your choice but I would still respectfully disagree.

Watching him was like seeing an adult playing with children.

Anyone who saw Orr play live will tell you how amazing he was. If they didn't agree I would have a very low opinion of their ability to make an intelligent evaluation about anything regarding the sport of hockey.

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08-17-2006, 12:01 PM
  #146
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Def. think he was amazing, but to me injuries and other factors do a place in my all-time list. I know some people go more on talent, but to me it does make a big impact.

From a pure talent standpoint I think you have Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux and then everyone else but for me the overall picture also factors in endurance and other aspects.

To me Gretzky was just in a league of his own, in his prime you just couldn't stop him.

Similar to Chosen's comments on Orr, I remember players just going after Gretzky and his just dancing around them. What was so amazing is that he never looked faster than them and you wondering how in the world they just couldn't contain him.

There is a story (I forgot the names involved) where a player gets back to the bench and the coach yells at him to contain Gretzky "Knock him down, do whatever!" to which the players responded "I'm trying".

I def. have Orr at the top group of my list though.

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08-17-2006, 12:10 PM
  #147
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It's often difficult..

comparing a defenseman to a centerman (or any forward for that matter), and especially a goalie. What is amazing about Gretzky, is that he top 200 points four times (three in a row, with a 190+ point season sandwiched in there). I do not believe any other forward topped 200 points (Mario had 199 I believe). When you can say that a guy like Wayne was able to put up numbers like that, which were greater on a consistent basis than a guy like Mario, that does say a lot.

I personally didn't get to see Orr a heck of a lot, being born in 1969 and all and I don't think highlights do a player justice, so I'm not a fair judge as to who would be better. Orr's offensive numbers, for a defenseman, are pretty out there - nobody really comes close (except maybe Coffey, but he had more help). But Wayne's were just out of this world. Each can take over a game. But perhaps the top 3 players of all time should be 1a, 1b, and 1c, in alphabetical order.

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08-17-2006, 12:42 PM
  #148
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I've watched hockey for thirty five years. Here's my input. Its tough to compare players from different decades.Howe played in a six team league that was never watered down with expansion. The closeest player to him in the last few years is Messier. Howe ranks first on my all time list. Orr is second. Orr revolutionized the role of the defenseman. Orr is the greatest defenseman to ever play the game. Messier gets a slight edge over Gretzky for number three due to the number of Cups. Rocket Richard gets the nod over Mario for number five. He starred on the great Canadian Cup teams. From the blue line in, Richard was the Greatest OFFENSIVE PLAYER(sorry Wayne) I have ever seen.Naturally, the youngins on the board can certainly disagree with some justifiable merit. Nevertheless, you have my top five

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08-17-2006, 01:29 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Similar to Chosen's comments on Orr, I remember players just going after Gretzky and his just dancing around them. What was so amazing is that he never looked faster than them and you wondering how in the world they just couldn't contain him.
He wasn't fast at all. What separated him was the greatest turning radius of all time, insanely great anticipation and a genius for creativity.

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08-17-2006, 01:35 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by bathgate View Post
I've watched hockey for thirty five years. Here's my input. Its tough to compare players from different decades.Howe played in a six team league that was never watered down with expansion. The closeest player to him in the last few years is Messier. Howe ranks first on my all time list. Orr is second. Orr revolutionized the role of the defenseman. Orr is the greatest defenseman to ever play the game. Messier gets a slight edge over Gretzky for number three due to the number of Cups. Rocket Richard gets the nod over Mario for number five. He starred on the great Canadian Cup teams. From the blue line in, Richard was the Greatest OFFENSIVE PLAYER(sorry Wayne) I have ever seen.Naturally, the youngins on the board can certainly disagree with some justifiable merit. Nevertheless, you have my top five
I left out Howe but you're right on the money. Howe was the Messier of his era and probably a notch better. Never saw the Rocket, only his little brother.

From the blue line in I'd probably go with Mario.

One of my favorite personal Howe moments took place in Brad Park's (my personal favorite Ranger ever) rookie year. Park was an amazing body checker who didn't care who he nailed. He would flip guys over his hip, something we no longer see.

He did it to Howe. Later in the game Howe elbowed Park when the ref wasn't looking (like it would have mattered anyway). Park played the rest of the game in a fog.

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