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Gretzky, Lemieux and Crosby comparables

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04-02-2013, 05:36 PM
  #1
Big Phil
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Gretzky, Lemieux and Crosby comparables

There was lots in the first section and it was always entertaining and worth the 1,000 posts. I see the second one became nonsensical in a hurry. It shouldn't, there was a lot of great discussion without it turning silly. Let's not make it personal here. As much as I can disagree with Hardyvan, I admire his courage.

Alright Hardy, the issue I have with you in the old thread when it came to Lemieux was that you would pick 10 players to lead a team to the Cup over him. Gretzky, obviously. But you went as far as Larionov. Look, one thing that sometimes gets glossed over was what happened to Lemieux in 1992. Adam Graves wacked him pretty hard on the wrists in that playoff series with the Rangers. Thankfully while Lemieux was out Francis helped get them past the Rangers but once Mario came back for the final 3 games against Boston he cleaned house again. He had 8 points in those three games and the famous goal where he goes end to end and makes Bourque look foolish with the puck in his legs.

Then in the final against Chicago another quick 4 games and 7 points in those 4 games. Overall 34 points in 15 playoff games. Look closely, when Mario hoists the Cup in 1992 he has a huge bandage around his wrist which was still smarting from the Graves slash. So not only do we have Mario's skill and outright domination but there is also something very underrated about Mario and that was his heart and his ability to play through the pain. I'd be interested in your explanation for 10 guys above that.

As for Stamkos, and just showing that Gretzky had at least as hard of a player to compete against in Bossy you'll see that Bossy too led the NHL in goals twice. First time he had 69 goals to Dionne's 59 (same seperation as Stamkos last year). Next time was 1981 and he had 68 to Dionne's 58. After that he had 64 and Gretzky just took off with 92 and never looked back. Throw in the much larger volume of assists and the fact that he scored just as prolific in the postseason and I can't see how you think Stamkos has been as good of an overall player as Bossy. When all is said and done? Who knows. But right now, at 22-23 years old the Bossy I saw was a better player.

It ties into just how much we saw Gretzky dominate a player like Bossy.


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04-02-2013, 05:40 PM
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How on earth can you compare Crosby to Gretzky and Lemieux?

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04-02-2013, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
How on earth can you compare Crosby to Gretzky and Lemieux?
This.

Please, just no Crosby.

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04-02-2013, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
How on earth can you compare Crosby to Gretzky and Lemieux?
Crosby doesn't even compare to Jagr yet, let alone Lemieux or Gretzky. In a parallel Universe though where logic makes no sense, apparently Crosby is the second coming.

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04-02-2013, 07:37 PM
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Finally -- the answer to the "A Player Better Than Gretzky?" thread!

Michael Wilbon finally gives us the definitive answer we've all been waiting for.... Can't believe it took so long!


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04-02-2013, 08:00 PM
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Big Phil
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Agreed.

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04-02-2013, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
How on earth can you compare Crosby to Gretzky and Lemieux?
Sort of a continuation of a used up thread. The entire 1,000 posts were dedicated to finding ways to compare Crosby to these two. It has been a fun debate and probably the best thread I've seen on here in a while. I like hearing both sides and have offered my rebuttal from a previous post on the other thread. This is the new thread.

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04-02-2013, 08:18 PM
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Too much talk about "obliverating" earlier records though, as usual. For some reason the average hockey fan as well as many many so called experts, fail to realise the era when discussing Gretzky as well as other people from then. It just never sinks in for them, and i guess numbers just are hard to question for them, i mean 92 is 92, not 69 or whatever. In Gretzkys case i'm sure there are also other mental aspects that comes into play, he's "The Great One", like a god, and god is perfect.
Gretzky would have gotten the records in any era, except for career goals becouse Howe would have kept it, and maybe the single season goal record, but there is just never any extra thought put into it. Redicoulous.

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04-02-2013, 08:25 PM
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This should also be interesting for Crosby fans to have a look at. The fact that Ovechkin is mentioned in the video is important. Before his recent slump (he's looking more and more like the Ovechkin of old lately), Ovechkin was the clear cut best player in the NHL, not Crosby.

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04-02-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
This should also be interesting for Crosby fans to have a look at. The fact that Ovechkin is mentioned in the video is important. Before his recent slump (he's looking more and more like the Ovechkin of old lately), Ovechkin was the clear cut best player in the NHL, not Crosby.
He really wasn't though. He was in the discussion, but there was no clear cut best player in the world. It was either Crosby or Ovechkin or some homer pick. You could make an argument for either and not be wrong.

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04-02-2013, 08:33 PM
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He really wasn't though. He was in the discussion, but there was no clear cut best player in the world. It was either Crosby or Ovechkin or some homer pick. You could make an argument for either and not be wrong.
Malkin has to be included in this discussion.

I just wish though Crosby homer fans would admit to this. Crosby was "not the clear cut best player".

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04-02-2013, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Malkin has to be included in this discussion.

I just wish though Crosby homer fans would admit to this. Crosby was "not the clear cut best player".
This is a fair statement. Malkin is likely the only other guy you would be making a legit case for. I think even the most homerish Crosby supporters (I count myself in the huge fan category ) could see that anyone choosing Geno or Ovi had a realistic case.

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04-02-2013, 08:43 PM
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This thread has already become Gretzky vs Crosby and friends, so it can be merged with the other one.

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04-02-2013, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Malkin has to be included in this discussion.

I just wish though Crosby homer fans would admit to this. Crosby was "not the clear cut best player".
I dont know if many did, but what i do think is that Ovechkins more recent performances have made many people simply forget how good he was a couple of years ago. For me as a Penguin fan Ovechkin was under long stretches better than Crosby, but as fas as i can remember it took a while to clearly understand that. I guess Crosbys Art Ross-season kept him at the top for some a little longer than it should have, although his playoffs in 08 and 09 also kept him there. I just dont know.

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04-02-2013, 09:22 PM
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On the topic of Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin, until Crosby's lows reach the level of Malkin's lows and Ovechkin's lows, I don't see myself struggling to rank Crosby above them while their careers are still relatively young. I mean, Malkin and Ovechkin have already had seasons where they dipped as low as .83 and .86 points-per-game; Crosby's lowest was 1.26. No misfires from the kid. He's more fragile, sure, but they haven't played so many more games that it is relevant yet, with Crosby being 1-2 years younger and all.

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04-02-2013, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Too much talk about "obliverating" earlier records though, as usual. For some reason the average hockey fan as well as many many so called experts, fail to realise the era when discussing Gretzky as well as other people from then. It just never sinks in for them, and i guess numbers just are hard to question for them, i mean 92 is 92, not 69 or whatever. In Gretzkys case i'm sure there are also other mental aspects that comes into play, he's "The Great One", like a god, and god is perfect.
Gretzky would have gotten the records in any era, except for career goals becouse Howe would have kept it, and maybe the single season goal record, but there is just never any extra thought put into it. Redicoulous.
Hogwash. Gretzky created the ERA. No one else came close to what he was doing while he was doing it.

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04-02-2013, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
On the topic of Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin, until Crosby's lows reach the level of Malkin's lows and Ovechkin's lows, I don't see myself struggling to rank Crosby above them while their careers are still relatively young. I mean, Malkin and Ovechkin have already had seasons where they dipped as low as .83 and .86 points-per-game; Crosby's lowest was 1.26. No misfires from the kid. He's more fragile, sure, but they haven't played so many more games that it is relevant yet, with Crosby being 1-2 years younger and all.


Let Crosby win the Hart Trophy two years in a row, then you can rank him above Ovechkin.

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04-02-2013, 09:41 PM
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Hogwash. Gretzky created the ERA. No one else came close to what he was doing while he was doing it.
He did'nt create anything, the scoring went up right before he got in the league and if anything he should have made the league more defensive minded since no-one could compete with him offensively. Instead, the league was still suffering from rapid expansion and bringing the WHA teams in so it was simply not equipped to have an answer for him.

But in a way nothing of the above is really important concerning your dislike of my last post, since whatever the reason was that the scoring went up, it did and Gretzkys stats just like everybody elses from that time are in fact inflated.

Edit: Seems like we have just got to hear from another of those fundamentalist believers in the perfect God called The Great One.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 04-02-2013 at 09:49 PM. Reason: Very typically
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04-02-2013, 09:51 PM
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He did'nt create anything, the scoring went up right before he got in the league and if anything he should have made the league more defensive minded since no-one could compete with him offensively. Instead, the league was still suffering from rapid expansion and bring the WHA teams in.

But in away nothing of the above is really important concerning your dislike of my last post, since whatever the reason was that the scoring went up, it did and gretzkys stats just like evrybody elses from that time are in fact inflated.

In 1975-76, the NHL had 19 teams and the WHA 15 teams, totaling 34 major professional hockey teams in North America. By 1979, the first year Gretzky played in the NHL, the WHA was defunct and the NHL integrated 4 WHA teams totaling 21 major professional hockey teams in North America. That is a decrease of 13 teams. Add into that an increase of European talent continually being added to the NHL and suddenly the NHL looks a lot more competitive than it did in 1975.

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04-02-2013, 09:53 PM
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it did and Gretzkys stats just like everybody elses from that time are in fact inflated.
Right, and I will be the first to admit that I tend to agree with your side of the argument, as some here can attest to. Scoring had been increasing almost every year across the league for about 30 years before Wayne came along. Combined with the merger and whatnot and it was the perfect storm for the best player of all time to come along and set ridiculous records. We agree on this right?

The problem is that it wasn't even close. His totals are almost hilariously higher than anyone else. Mario was the only other player who was even near his level, and he couldn't put it together for 10 years like Wayne did.

So yes the 200+ points are a little inflated, but he still absolutely destroyed every other player in the league save Mario, and it's not like the remainder of those players were complete scrubs. Those numbers likely will never be replicated, but his statistical dominance was not merely a byproduct of the 80s, if that is what you are suggesting.

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04-02-2013, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
In 1975-76, the NHL had 19 teams and the WHA 15 teams, totaling 34 major professional hockey teams in North America. By 1979, the first year Gretzky played in the NHL, the WHA was defunct and the NHL integrated 4 WHA teams totaling 21 major professional hockey teams in North America. That is a decrease of 13 teams. Add into that an increase of European talent continually being added to the NHL and suddenly the NHL looks a lot more competitive than it did in 1975.
Many many WHA players did not go to the NHL, they went back to whatever minor league they first came from or retired. I bet you wont question that scoring was considerably higher in the WHA then in the NHL, and four of those teams came into the NHL, even if i bet they to a high degree filled their teams from the merger draft or whatever it was called, stealing talent from the other NHL teams, watering the league down.
We also had a couple of true expansion teams coming around the year 1980.

But as i said, it's not really important concerning Gretzkys inflated stats now, is it?

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04-02-2013, 09:59 PM
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...
Yes, i was just saying that he probably would'nt have had the all-time goal scoring record if not playing in that era or possibly in the seventies, and possibly not the single season goal scoring record either, even if it is a real good chance he would, perhaps even probably. The last one is of course by going by adjusted stats, and my personal opinion of it is that Gretzky would not be in Lemieux:s class goal scoring wise in a more tighter league.

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04-02-2013, 10:02 PM
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Many many WHA players did not go to the NHL, they went back to whatever minor league they first came from or retired. I bet you wont question that scoring was considerably higher in the WHA then in the NHL, and four of those teams came into the NHL, even if i bet they to a high degree filled their teams from the merger draft or whatever it was called, stealing talent from the other NHL teams, watering the league down.
We also had a couple of true expansion teams coming around the year 1980.

But as i said, it's not really important concerning Gretzkys inflated stats now, is it?
Reducing the number of professional teams only increases the concentration of talented players in the top league, that being the NHL. And as I said, the Europeans kept coming over to even add to the talent pool. That makes for a very competitive league.

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04-02-2013, 10:05 PM
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Reducing the number of professional teams only increases the concentration of talented players in the top league, that being the NHL. And as I said, the Europeans kept coming over to even add to the talent pool. That makes for a very competitive league.
No it does'nt. The WHA was worse than the NHL and the merged teams took players from the better league in the merger draft. Of course the NHL teams did take their drafted WHA stars but as i said the WHA was not a very deep league talent wise. We also had expansion teams like the Atlanta Flames coming in at the same time.

As i said, the coaches was not stupid and chose to try and go all out offensively against Gretzky, They just did not have the players to stop mainly the Oilers.

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04-03-2013, 02:00 AM
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Too much talk about "obliverating" earlier records though, as usual. For some reason the average hockey fan as well as many many so called experts, fail to realise the era when discussing Gretzky as well as other people from then. It just never sinks in for them, and i guess numbers just are hard to question for them, i mean 92 is 92, not 69 or whatever. In Gretzkys case i'm sure there are also other mental aspects that comes into play, he's "The Great One", like a god, and god is perfect.
Gretzky would have gotten the records in any era, except for career goals becouse Howe would have kept it, and maybe the single season goal record, but there is just never any extra thought put into it. Redicoulous.
While I agree that era isn't being considered at all, he did obliterate the records. The NHL record books aren't written with adjusted scoring records, they're written with hard numbers. 92 goals. 163 assists. 215 points. Sure, there's also PPG records, etc. But they aren't adjusted for era either.

And I agree with what you said - he would have had most the records regardless. But it's not hard to see why a guy like Wilbon would say Gretzky "obliterated" the records, because he did. Before he came, Espo had the goals and points record, Orr the assist record, Howe the career records. Gretzky beat them all, and badly. He scored more assists in a season than Espo had in his record-setting season for points. He beat Orr's assist record by 61 assists, and beat it every season for like 10 straight seasons or so. He beat 50 in 50 with 50 in 39. And ya... none of those numbers are adjusted. But guys like Wilbon probably don't care about adjusted numbers. And why should they? The NHL doesn't care about them either.

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