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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
04-02-2013, 10:33 PM
  #676
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
that Steve Yzerman guy was pretty good. And Shanahan. Selanne has hardly played with Ryan. Ryan plays with Getzlaf and Perry.
Perhaps I should have been slightly more specific in my wording and included "at the point in their career they were playing with Fedorov". Because Yzerman did play on Fedorov's line for part of 2001-02, along with Shanahan, but Yzerman then and Shanahan then were not better than Zhamnov was when he played with Selanne. It would be like saying that the 1995 Red Wings had the best defense corps ever assembled; it was

Lidstrom/Coffey
Rouse/Konstantinov
Fetisov/Ramsey
Howe

That's three of the four best defensemen of the ~1980s, plus the best defenseman of the period from 1995 until now. Another who was on track to challenge for that spot until his career was ended by a car accident, one who can make a legitimate HHOF case as a defensive defenseman on NHL+international play, and one of the best stay-at-homes from the late-80s/90s. But none of them were in their primes.

Imagine that group, all in their primes. Any defense that would be forced to scratch a prime Bob Rouse (because it'd be him on primes) is just unfair.

Quote:
Your point? Selanne's injury was one that took away his biggest asset, speed. Dominating a couple of games in the playoffs isn't the same as playing a whole season injured. That season 2002, Selanne was only 14 points behind Fedorov who was playing with arguably the best team assembled.
Go back to my point about Yzerman's knee injury. Yzerman went knee-first into a goal post. He lost speed and agility that he never recovered. Ended the season with 64 GP, 50-52-102. Over 80, that projects to 63-65-128. What happened the next season, after Yzerman had rested all summer, and adapted to his new skating speed?

He scored 65 goals and 155 points. Gretzky/Lemieux territory.

The following season, he hit 62-65-127, almost the exact rate from 1987-88.

Yzerman's knee injury was much more severe; why did it not affect him the way Selanne's allegedly affected him?

Quote:
You still claimed that Fedorov would have scored 2 points in 1 game based on his PPG. I'm not sure why you made such a long post on something so minuscule. Fedorov had a decimal point better ppg than Selanne. Meanwhile Selanne still had more goals and more points.
I claimed that Fedorov would have scored 1 goal and 1 assist based on separate GPG and APG, making 2 points. I also stated IN THE ORIGINAL POST YOU ARE DISPUTING that if you used simple PPG, Fedorov only gained one point, but he had a slightly higher PPG overall (contrary to the initial assertion that their PPG was identical).
That you refuse to comprehend this is absolutely unbelievable.

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Old
04-02-2013, 11:55 PM
  #677
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Thanks for reminding me once again that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah, he was perfectly healthy.
"In 2004... he was hobbled by a chronic knee injury..."
"His knee was so bad in 2004..."

He was "fine" after knee surgery near the end of the '00/01 season (meaning "healthy", but not capable of everything he used to be... it's knee surgery after all), and it wasn't until re-injuring the knee early in the '03/04 season (and only sitting out one game to recover, I believe) that it became a real issue again and Teemu found himself actually playing through significant pain (unless you can provide quotes from Teemu re: playing through chronic pain from earlier seasons). Like I said, there's no doubt that it was part of an equation that also included less than impressive play (regardless of what speed it was at) from Kariya and Selanne when reunited that year. I think someone else already elaborated on all of this recently in this thread, actually.

And since you're avoiding the issue of the "Roy Bonus" for playoff excellence, I'm gathering that you're reluctant to extend the same consideration to Fedorov, despite the vast divide between the playoff resumes of these two guys? That would be consistently inconsistent, I suppose.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 04-03-2013 at 12:00 AM.
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Old
04-03-2013, 06:11 AM
  #678
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
"In 2004... he was hobbled by a chronic knee injury..."
"His knee was so bad in 2004..."

He was "fine" after knee surgery near the end of the '00/01 season (meaning "healthy", but not capable of everything he used to be... it's knee surgery after all), and it wasn't until re-injuring the knee early in the '03/04 season (and only sitting out one game to recover, I believe) that it became a real issue again and Teemu found himself actually playing through significant pain (unless you can provide quotes from Teemu re: playing through chronic pain from earlier seasons). Like I said, there's no doubt that it was part of an equation that also included less than impressive play (regardless of what speed it was at) from Kariya and Selanne when reunited that year. I think someone else already elaborated on all of this recently in this thread, actually.
What a joke. So the circumference of his left leg shrank during that one game off in 2003-04? It was a degenerating problem that happened over several years. The surgery in 2001 removed some of the loose cartilage to lessen the pain for the playoffs; that's it. The surgery in 2004 was to reconstruct the knee - something that requires significantly more down time. Saying that the knee was "fine" in 2001 is pretty naive, and not at all consistent with any account of Selanne's health during the time period. And yet you're the one making accusations of re-writing history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Hall of Fame
High-scoring winger Teemu Selanne becomes the first member of the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim to capture the Bill Masterton Memorial Trophy. After years of being plagued by knee injuries, Selanne endured the least productive season of his NHL career in 2003-04 with Colorado. Following the season, he would undergo reconstructive knee surgery and spent the entire 2004-05 lockout season rehabilitating his surgically repaired knee. After returning for a second stint with the Mighty Ducks, Selanne would return to glory, leading the club in both goals (40) and points (90), his highest total since 1998-99.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBC
Suffers through ligament pain

The moves also didn't pay off in terms of the ultimate goal. Selanne continued a trend of never having been on a team that advanced past the second round of the playoffs.

In 2003, he had to watch as Kariya and several other former teammates on the Ducks embarked on a storybook post-season that was only denied in the final game of the Stanley Cup final.

He was also battling with ligament damage in his left knee that was also affecting his thigh muscles.

Despite the reduced mobility, Colorado was more than happy to reunite Selanne with Kariya and benefit from some of the old magic, signing the pair in the 2003 offseason.

The next season was a disappointment for both. Selanne had just 16 goals and as many assists in 78 games. He failed to score in 10 playoff contests.

Selanne has since joked it was actually his fraternal twin brother Paavo who was donning the Avalanche jersey that year, but it got so bad that he was seriously contemplating retirement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSNBC, August 24, 2005
Selanne said he was slowed in recent years by an injured left knee, but had surgery last September.

My knee is as good as when I started in the NHL, he said. Im very excited now, its back to 100 percent, its time to play hockey again.

When I cant use my speed, Im useless. I have really high expectations of this year, not only of myself but the team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AP, October 28, 2005
Selanne's return to Anaheim after stints at San Jose and Colorado has the 35-year-old star from Finland skating and scoring in much the same fashion he did earlier in his career.

The nine-time NHL All-Star has eight goals in his first 11 games back in Anaheim, where he scored 225 before being traded in 2001.

"I've been feeling good pretty much all year. It's fun to play again when you're healthy and every stride feels good," Selanne said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And since you're avoiding the issue of the "Roy Bonus" for playoff excellence, I'm gathering that you're reluctant to extend the same consideration to Fedorov, despite the vast divide between the playoff resumes of these two guys? That would be consistently inconsistent, I suppose.
I'm not avoiding it; I just didn't address it in my last post because it's still a flawed analogy. Patrick Roy is the best goaltender of all-time because in addition to being a coin-flip contender with Wayne Gretzky for the title of best playoff performer in history, he had one of the highest peaks as a goaltender (below Sawchuk and Hasek, but few others) and a lengthy, consistent, and healthy eighteen year regular season career in the NHL (rivaled by Brodeur, Plante, and few others). It was demonstrated that Patrick Roy could have his career cut in half and make the Hall of Fame twice.

Sergei Fedorov is NOT Patrick Roy.

Scott Stevens has a better playoff record than Chris Chelios, but that doesn't make Scott Stevens the better player overall, because the regular season gap is too large. Just like the regular season gap between Selanne and Fedorov (Selanne's six top-ten finishes in goals spanning 14 years versus Fedorov's one; Selanne's five top-ten finishes in assists spanning 15 years versus Fedorov's one; Selanne's seven top-ten finishes in points spanning 18 years versus Fedorov's two) is too large - and no, there isn't enough value in a defensive forward to overcome (2, 5, 5, 7, 8, 8) versus (9) in points after redundancies, or (1, 1, 1, 2, 10) versus (nothing) in goals after redundancies, or (4, 7, 9, 10) versus (nothing) in assists after redundancies. But the regular season gap between Roy and Hasek isn't large at all.

Save Percentage Finishes (among goalies in the Top-20 GP)
Hasek
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 6, 8)
Roy
(1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 6, 8, 8, 8, 14)


So you're steamed about the Roy/Hasek debate: Get over it. Sergei Fedorov is not a comparable player. Even if his four great playoffs (I'm just going to give you the 1995 and 1998 playoffs, because I'm sick of talking about how the majority of his points came from beating up low-seeds like San Jose and Phoenix) translated to regular season numbers, he'd still be a few top-tens shy of being Teemu Selanne, because rather than continuing to perform at an elite level as he did in 1994 and 1996, Fedorov got complacent and turned in offensive numbers more similar to Steve Rucchin than Teemu Selanne.

But I can't even get you to see that a player that everyone acknowledges was injured was - in fact - injured, so why should I expect that you would follow any of that?

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Old
04-03-2013, 10:58 AM
  #679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
What a joke. So the circumference of his left leg shrank during that one game off in 2003-04? It was a degenerating problem that happened over several years. The surgery in 2001 removed some of the loose cartilage to lessen the pain for the playoffs; that's it. The surgery in 2004 was to reconstruct the knee - something that requires significantly more down time. Saying that the knee was "fine" in 2001 is pretty naive, and not at all consistent with any account of Selanne's health during the time period. And yet you're the one making accusations of re-writing history?
What's naive is thinking that his knee was nearly as bad when he was playing 160+ straight games as it was after that knee injury in the early '03/04 season that would cause him to finally address the situation in the off season. But again, since no one seems to be claiming Selanne was the better player over the period anyway, it's tangential. Still don't see any articles provided from '01/02, '02/03 talking about the affects of Selanne's lingering condition, though. Everything you provided as "proof" is dated '04, '05 (or later) and refers to "recent" years, without even elaborating on any pattern of degeneration or complications before his next knee injury in '03/04.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I'm not avoiding it; I just didn't address it in my last post because it's still a flawed analogy. Patrick Roy is the best goaltender of all-time because in addition to being a coin-flip contender with Wayne Gretzky for the title of best playoff performer in history, he had one of the highest peaks as a goaltender (below Sawchuk and Hasek, but few others) and a lengthy, consistent, and healthy eighteen year regular season career in the NHL (rivaled by Brodeur, Plante, and few others). It was demonstrated that Patrick Roy could have his career cut in half and make the Hall of Fame twice.

Sergei Fedorov is NOT Patrick Roy.

Scott Stevens has a better playoff record than Chris Chelios, but that doesn't make Scott Stevens the better player overall, because the regular season gap is too large. Just like the regular season gap between Selanne and Fedorov (Selanne's six top-ten finishes in goals spanning 14 years versus Fedorov's one; Selanne's five top-ten finishes in assists spanning 15 years versus Fedorov's one; Selanne's seven top-ten finishes in points spanning 18 years versus Fedorov's two) is too large - and no, there isn't enough value in a defensive forward to overcome (2, 5, 5, 7, 8, 8) versus (9) in points after redundancies, or (1, 1, 1, 2, 10) versus (nothing) in goals after redundancies, or (4, 7, 9, 10) versus (nothing) in assists after redundancies. But the regular season gap between Roy and Hasek isn't large at all.

Save Percentage Finishes (among goalies in the Top-20 GP)
Hasek
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 6, 8)
Roy
(1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 6, 8, 8, 8, 14)


So you're steamed about the Roy/Hasek debate: Get over it. Sergei Fedorov is not a comparable player. Even if his four great playoffs (I'm just going to give you the 1995 and 1998 playoffs, because I'm sick of talking about how the majority of his points came from beating up low-seeds like San Jose and Phoenix) translated to regular season numbers, he'd still be a few top-tens shy of being Teemu Selanne, because rather than continuing to perform at an elite level as he did in 1994 and 1996, Fedorov got complacent and turned in offensive numbers more similar to Steve Rucchin than Teemu Selanne.

But I can't even get you to see that a player that everyone acknowledges was injured was - in fact - injured, so why should I expect that you would follow any of that?
Wow. All that typing about the regular season that's supposed to say something about the playoffs?

Fedorov played at a very high level in the regular season. He often played even better in the post season, was consistently one of the most important/skilled players on his team, and has a pattern of consistency and excellence/success when it matters the most. That's exactly how you painted up Roy's advantage over Hasek. I'm not steamed about it, but I do revel in exposing the most elaborate of biases and inconsistencies.

"Beating up on low seeds"... as if Selanne racking up points in '95/96, '96/97 against 40-60 point L.A. and San Jose squads (for example; the two teams Teemu has scored the most against in his career, of course) is more significant than producing against low seeded playoff teams...

Also, 6 Vezinas, 2 Harts/Lindsays >> 3 Vezinas, 0 Harts/Lindsays, speaking of the regular season specifically. Obviously the "compiled" aspect of the resumes of great players in of greater importance to you (when you want it to be) than the "actual" greatness they displayed. The same can't be said for me, that's for sure.

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Old
04-03-2013, 11:26 AM
  #680
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Selanne has had injuries before he even came to NHL. When he was 19 he broke his tibia and fibula. The recovery from that injury took more than 10 months. And he basicly had to learn to walk again.

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04-03-2013, 11:58 AM
  #681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Perhaps I should have been slightly more specific in my wording and included "at the point in their career they were playing with Fedorov". Because Yzerman did play on Fedorov's line for part of 2001-02, along with Shanahan, but Yzerman then and Shanahan then were not better than Zhamnov was when he played with Selanne.
Yzerman and Shanahan were still better players than Zhamnov. We both know there's no way you believe someone like Zhamnov was ever better than Yzerman so please don't try and play that card. 2002 also wasn't the only time Fedorov played with those two.

Quote:
It would be like saying that the 1995 Red Wings had the best defense corps ever assembled; it was
Lidstrom/Coffey
Rouse/Konstantinov
Fetisov/Ramsey
Howe

That's three of the four best defensemen of the ~1980s, plus the best defenseman of the period from 1995 until now. Another who was on track to challenge for that spot until his career was ended by a car accident, one who can make a legitimate HHOF case as a defensive defenseman on NHL+international play, and one of the best stay-at-homes from the late-80s/90s. But none of them were in their primes.

Imagine that group, all in their primes. Any defense that would be forced to scratch a prime Bob Rouse (because it'd be him on primes) is just unfair.
None of them may have been in their prime although I'd argue Konstantinov was but they were all still great defensemen. Coffey won a Norris trophy in his time with the wings and was a PPG player in that time as well. Larry Murphy was also still good offensively as well.



Quote:
Go back to my point about Yzerman's knee injury. Yzerman went knee-first into a goal post. He lost speed and agility that he never recovered. Ended the season with 64 GP, 50-52-102. Over 80, that projects to 63-65-128. What happened the next season, after Yzerman had rested all summer, and adapted to his new skating speed?

He scored 65 goals and 155 points. Gretzky/Lemieux territory.

The following season, he hit 62-65-127, almost the exact rate from 1987-88.

Yzerman's knee injury was much more severe; why did it not affect him the way Selanne's allegedly affected him?
Take into account the age both were when they were injured. Yzermans injury occurred at a younger age. Selanne was in his 30s. He was already declining. And it's not like Selanne never came back from his injury. Post lockout he was back to his normal speed and look what he accomplished. Plus the easy answer to your question is that no two injuries are the same and injuries affect players differently. Also please don't turn this into an Yzerman vs Selanne thread now.

Quote:
I claimed that Fedorov would have scored 1 goal and 1 assist based on separate GPG and APG, making 2 points. I also stated IN THE ORIGINAL POST YOU ARE DISPUTING that if you used simple PPG, Fedorov only gained one point, but he had a slightly higher PPG overall (contrary to the initial assertion that their PPG was identical).
That you refuse to comprehend this is absolutely unbelievable.
I Claimed they had the same PPG because at first glance with simple rounding they both have a 1.37 PPG. But that wasn't fair to Fedorov I guess. So you have to nitpick that Fedorov has a hundredth of a point better PPG. Which I guess is fine. But if you're going to question my rounding then I have to question yours. Separating GPG and APG still doesn't really prove that based on stats he would get two points. .50 GPG doesn't equate to scoring 1 goal in a game. .87 APG doesn't mean Fedorov would get 1 assist in a game. I'm done arguing this point because its nonsense. I've already said that Fedorov had the better season as a player but Selanne was better offensively based on having more goals, more points, and the same, well almost the same PPG.

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Old
04-03-2013, 01:35 PM
  #682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
What's naive is thinking that his knee was nearly as bad when he was playing 160+ straight games as it was after that knee injury in the early '03/04 season that would cause him to finally address the situation in the off season.
What caused Selanne to finally address the problem wasn't the one game off in 2003-04 - it was the lockout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teemu Selanne (Helsingin Sanomat), September 2004
That's correct. I have been waiting for this for years and this is the perfect moment. Once my left knee is up to speed with the right one, I am looking forward to several more years at the top.
When he was getting loose cartilage removed from his knee in 2001 (which supposedly made him "fine" according to you and no one else), it was because he couldn't take a year off to recover from a reconstructive knee surgery without missing the remainder of the 2001 season and the beginning of the 2002 season. Then he gets the surgery when? Not immediately after missing that one game in 2003-04, but instead the week after the lockout is announced.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
But again, since no one seems to be claiming Selanne was the better player over the period anyway, it's tangential.
I think it's important to establish a pattern that you don't know what you're talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Wow. All that typing about the regular season that's supposed to say something about the playoffs?
I'm talking about the regular season because you're trying to over-simplify things. Just because I favor one player with a better playoff record than another player (Roy over Hasek) doesn't mean that I have to favor the player with a better playoff record in EVERY comparison.

I do not give Stevens that boost over Chelios. I do not give Fedorov that boost over Selanne.

Roy and Hasek were argued to have comparable regular season records (Hasek holding an edge with his peak; Roy holding an edge with his health and consistency). Both were six-time All-Stars, with preference ultimately coming down to the weight of Hasek's six 1st Teams versus Roy's four 1st Teams and two 2nd Teams being compared against the weight of Roy's two additional seasons as a Vezina Nominee and 11-7 edge in top-five save percentage finishes in seasons with legitimate starter minutes. Either way, Hasek or Roy, it is a close argument.

It makes sense then that one would take into consideration that one of those goaltenders is arguably the best playoff performer in history - not just at the position, but as a likely 1A/1B with Wayne Gretzky.

Fedorov does not have that ace in the hole. He holds a very real edge over Teemu Selanne in terms of playoff performance, but the situation is not analogous to Roy/Hasek for two reasons:

1. The gap Teemu Selanne holds over Sergei Fedorov in the regular season is bigger than the gap either Dominik Hasek or Patrick Roy hold over each other in the regular season:

Four All-Star selections versus one
(2, 5, 5, 7, 8, 8) versus (9) in Points after redundancies
(1, 1, 1, 2, 10) versus (nothing) in Goals after redundancies
(4, 7, 9, 10) versus (nothing) in Assists after redundancies

2. Sergei Fedorov is not a playoff performer on the level of a Patrick Roy. No one attempts to argue that he was a legitimate Conn Smythe contender in any year but 1997. Of his career overlap contemporaries, he is typically held below Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Sakic, Stevens, Forsberg, and Jagr as a playoff performer. Better than Yzerman, better than Shanahan, on par with Lidstrom - but in no way was he in the argument for best of his generation or best of all-time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Fedorov played at a very high level in the regular season.
Twice. The ability to replicate success year after year is why Teemu Selanne is the top-15 scorer, the first-ballot Hall of Fame lock, the all-time leader in Olympic scoring, and the better player overall.

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04-04-2013, 05:58 AM
  #683
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All the tangible arguments seem to implicate that Teemu Selanne was/is better than Sergei Fedorov.

The only thing Feds has over Teemu is sort of a 'myth' built around that one Hart season and those great playoff years on amazing teams.

I love Feds and think he is amazing and deserves being enshrined in the Hall, but facts are facts.

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04-04-2013, 09:05 AM
  #684
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Yzerman and Shanahan were still better players than Zhamnov. We both know there's no way you believe someone like Zhamnov was ever better than Yzerman so please don't try and play that card. 2002 also wasn't the only time Fedorov played with those two.
I said that 2002 Yzerman and Zhamnov weren't better than 94-96 Zhamnov. Not 2002 Zhamnov. And that's the only time Fedorov played on a line with either of them regularly. So we can mark down Forsberg and Sakic as linemates during their primes, I suppose, based on your argument.

Quote:
Take into account the age both were when they were injured. Yzermans injury occurred at a younger age. Selanne was in his 30s. He was already declining. And it's not like Selanne never came back from his injury. Post lockout he was back to his normal speed and look what he accomplished. Plus the easy answer to your question is that no two injuries are the same and injuries affect players differently. Also please don't turn this into an Yzerman vs Selanne thread now.
Alright, fine. Use Yzerman's neck injury. That one was actually had more long-term effect. Yzerman's 1993-94 season looked like this (84-game projection in parenthesis):

Season total: 58GP, 24-58-82 (35-84-119)
Before injury: 8GP, 2-8-10 (21-84-105)
After injury: 50GP, 22-50-72 (37-84-121)

Yzerman suffered more significant injuries than Selanne, and a significant number of them came before the DPE. Yet he never dropped anywhere near Selanne's 2003-04 offensively. And neither did Fedorov, even after Fedorov played through several injury plagued years at the end of his career with Columbus and Washington.

Selanne's 2003-04 does not just go away just because he had been injured at some point prior.

Quote:
but Selanne was better offensively based on having more goals, more points, and the same, well almost the same PPG.
Fedorov had one fewer goal and equal assists in one fewer game. His PPG was 1.37, so one average he scored about 4 points every three games. That means he is likely to get at least one point in the "missing game" were he to play in it. Which at minimum negates Selanne's advantage in total. Fedorov's PPG would go down if he went 1-for-1, and he would then be tied with Selanne.

So Fedorov's offensive production would have to be slower than normal over the course of exactly one game for him to match Selanne, yet Selanne has the more impressive offensive season? No dice.

Also...Tkachuk had 98 points that season. Kariya had 108. Zhamnov was PPG while with Winnipeg. The difference between those guys and what Fedorov played with is monumental. Certainly enough to offset any advantage for Selanne's 40-68-108 in 79 over Fedorov's 39-68-107 in 78.

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04-04-2013, 01:53 PM
  #685
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larionov in 94-96 is better than 94-96 zhamnov. Considering that one of the reasons fedorov is better then selanne overall is because of a overall sorta aspect like defensively etc. Then yea he is as well. Larionov also if we recall correctly outplayed a MVP Fedorov in those 94 playoffs when the sharks beat the wings.

Again I think fedorov is better than selanne but the whole selanne plays with better teammates is a insulting argument towards him. And really ridiculous. Maybe he was allowed more freedom, and allowed to run and gun more then the other. So perhaps his stats are padded in that sense. But better linemates etc? No way.

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04-04-2013, 04:15 PM
  #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post


Sergei Fedorov is NOT Patrick Roy.



Ironically, it was Sergei Fedorov who pretty much finished Roy's career as a Montreal Canadien.

In that game at Montreal (Detroit won 11-1), Fedorov set up 3 goals on Roy and then scored himself. Fedorov made the score 9-1 and Roy was pulled. He never played for the Habs again.

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Old
04-05-2013, 09:54 PM
  #687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I said that 2002 Yzerman and Zhamnov weren't better than 94-96 Zhamnov. Not 2002 Zhamnov. And that's the only time Fedorov played on a line with either of them regularly. So we can mark down Forsberg and Sakic as linemates during their primes, I suppose, based on your argument.
A 2002 Yzerman is every bit as good as Zhamnov was in 94-96. Especially defensively. Shanahan was also better as well.


Quote:
Alright, fine. Use Yzerman's neck injury. That one was actually had more long-term effect. Yzerman's 1993-94 season looked like this (84-game projection in parenthesis):

Season total: 58GP, 24-58-82 (35-84-119)
Before injury: 8GP, 2-8-10 (21-84-105)
After injury: 50GP, 22-50-72 (37-84-121)

Yzerman suffered more significant injuries than Selanne, and a significant number of them came before the DPE. Yet he never dropped anywhere near Selanne's 2003-04 offensively. And neither did Fedorov, even after Fedorov played through several injury plagued years at the end of his career with Columbus and Washington.

Selanne's 2003-04 does not just go away just because he had been injured at some point prior.
I SAID IM NOT COMPARING YZERMAN TO SELANNE, SO PLEASE STOP. Injuries effect players in different ways. Congratulations to Yzerman for coming back form his injuries the way he did. But this isn't about him. Selanne dealt with a significant leg injury that had a negative affect on his production. Outside of 2001-2004 He's been a lot better offensively.

2004 doesn't go away and no one is claiming that. Selanne had a bad season. But the main reason for that was because he was injured. His production didnt just drop in San Jose because he didnt have Kariya like You and Ohashi claim. In Col. It's pretty well documented how hurt Selanne was.


Quote:
Fedorov had one fewer goal and equal assists in one fewer game. His PPG was 1.37, so one average he scored about 4 points every three games. That means he is likely to get at least one point in the "missing game" were he to play in it. Which at minimum negates Selanne's advantage in total. Fedorov's PPG would go down if he went 1-for-1, and he would then be tied with Selanne.

So Fedorov's offensive production would have to be slower than normal over the course of exactly one game for him to match Selanne, yet Selanne has the more impressive offensive season? No dice.
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So Becasue Fedorov had a decimal better PPG in he had the clearly better offensive season? No dice.
Also...Tkachuk had 98 points that season. Kariya had 108. Zhamnov was PPG while with Winnipeg. The difference between those guys and what Fedorov played with is monumental. Certainly enough to offset any advantage for Selanne's 40-68-108 in 79 over Fedorov's 39-68-107 in 78.
Is that all you have to argue is line mates? Selanne was a first line winger of course he'll play with good players. He also faced other teams top defensive pairs and shut down forwards. If Fedorov was the top center on his team maybe he'd get to play with better players. But he wasn't so he didnt face top defensive pairs.


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04-05-2013, 11:30 PM
  #688
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Originally Posted by seekritdude View Post
larionov in 94-96 is better than 94-96 zhamnov.
Not only is that false, Fedorov wasn't even a teammate of Larionov's until 1995-96, and played only part of that season with him.

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Again I think fedorov is better than selanne but the whole selanne plays with better teammates is a insulting argument towards him. And really ridiculous. Maybe he was allowed more freedom, and allowed to run and gun more then the other. So perhaps his stats are padded in that sense. But better linemates etc? No way.
Selanne absolutely had better linemates. Do you know who the media considered as the league's best forward going forward when Lemieux retired in 1997? Paul Kariya.

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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
A 2002 Yzerman is every bit as good as Zhamnov was in 94-96. Especially defensively. Shanahan was also better as well.
Zhamnov was a 2nd-team all-star and one of the ten best forwards in the league in 94-95, and his season the next year was not much below that level. I'd rank Yzerman close maybe, but Shanahan no way.

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Is that all you have to argue is line mates? Selanne was a first line winger of course he'll play with good players. He also faced other teams top defensive pairs and shut down forwards. If Fedorov was the top center on his team maybe he'd get to play with better players. But he wasn't so he didnt face top defensive pairs.
He also played a primarily defensive game. And linemates do matter. If a shooter like Selanne is playing with a highly skilled playmaker like Kariya, Housley, or Zhamnov; that's likely to improve his output over what it would be if he were stuck playing with a couple of third line grinders.


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04-06-2013, 02:00 PM
  #689
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Not only is that false, Fedorovo wasn't even a teammate of Larionov's until 1995-96, and played only part of that season with him.



Larionov in that time period was getting selke and heart trophy votes while not even playing full seasons... Was zhamnov??? Oh he had some lady byng but larionov also did. Again this no knock on zhamnov as he was ****ing awesome in that lock out year. But he was not a better overall player then larionov durning this time period. Which you said 94-to 96. Larionov prooved how good he was by being the best player those 94 playoffs till the sharks got knocked out. He out played a heart trophy fedorov when the sharks beat the wings.. Also umm ok who ever lived in michigan in the 90s please raise your hand *slowly does* I dunno what games you guys were watching but Larionov mainly played on the russian 5 in that 95-96 year. In the playoffs that line was not played as regularly. But in the regular season. Yea that was the main line he played on.

And lets assume im wrong and I have alzheimers and didnt watch almost every wing game durning these years. If they only played part of the time with larionov who else did he play with then? Oh I forgot maybe one of the other amazing players the wings had?

I still dont see how this is even a arguement which player played with better players. It seems so silly.

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04-06-2013, 05:16 PM
  #690
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Originally Posted by seekritdude View Post
Larionov in that time period was getting selke and heart trophy votes
As a Shark in 1994. Fedorov never played for the Sharks at any point, and certainly not in 1994.

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while not even playing full seasons... Was zhamnov???
That's not a fair comparison; in 1994-95 (Zhamnov's big year) the voting was conducted in two stages, with each conference having three finalists nominated and then the awards being voted upon from those six finalists. Zhamnov was behind Paul Coffey (58 points from a defenseman, top ten in scoring), Theoren Fleury (58 points, physical, defensively solid), and Brett Hull (not sure why Hull ended up ahead of him.) Much in the same way that Joe Sakic (scoring leader and captain of the Nordiques, who had a significant turnaround from bottom feeder to best team in the league) and Peter Bondra (1st in goals) were not in the East's three nominees. Hull didn't even get a vote in the final round - he officially finished 6th only from the fact that he was a "West nominee".

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Oh he had some lady byng but larionov also did. Again this no knock on zhamnov as he was ****ing awesome in that lock out year. But he was not a better overall player then larionov durning this time period. Which you said 94-to 96.
I said none of Fedorov's linemates were better when they were on Fedorov's line than Zhamnov was when he played with Selanne, which is 93-94 through 95-96. Larionov certainly doesn't fit that bill.

Zhamnov was actually better THAN SELANNE for the first two years; Selanne only takes the title for the entire period because he scored like a madman during his last half-season in Winnipeg. And IMHO, part of that is because Zhamnov played a more responsible defensive style - much more similar to Larionov's than he was credited with.

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Larionov prooved how good he was by being the best player those 94 playoffs till the sharks got knocked out. He out played a heart trophy fedorov when the sharks beat the wings.. Also umm ok who ever lived in michigan in the 90s please raise your hand *slowly does* I dunno what games you guys were watching but Larionov mainly played on the russian 5 in that 95-96 year. In the playoffs that line was not played as regularly. But in the regular season. Yea that was the main line he played on.
That unit didn't play together nearly as often in the regular season nearly as often as you are suggesting. At most it was half of Fedorov's time, and that includes the use of it on the PP. Fedorov was hitched to Kozlov as a linemate. But Brown played with them at ES at least as much as Larionov did. The "regular" RWs that year were Ciccarelli, McCarty, Brown, and Lapointe. Obviously with Bowman behind the bench, nobody's position was guaranteed, but that was the "typical" lineup.

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And lets assume im wrong and I have alzheimers and didnt watch almost every wing game durning these years. If they only played part of the time with larionov who else did he play with then?
See above

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Oh I forgot maybe one of the other amazing players the wings had?
He rarely played with Yzerman or Shanahan during the 90s; after Shanahan was acquired he played mostly with Yzerman, but also often with Larionov. Yzerman and Fedorov only played together for any significant time in 2001-02, and Yzerman (who played about half to 2/3 of the season) was at best equal to 93-96 Zhamnov at that point.

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I still dont see how this is even a arguement which player played with better players. It seems so silly.
Fedorov played on a better team, but he didn't play with better linemates.

A comparable:

Pavel Datsyuk spent a long stretch this season playing with Daniel Cleary and Justin Abdelkader.
John Tavares plays with Matt Moulson and Brad Boyes.

Who's the better offensive player? Most on HF would pick Tavares this season.

BUT WAIT!

Datsyuk has one fewer point in one fewer game. He is clearly on the better team, but he certainly hasn't had better linemates. Datsyuk is clearly having the better offensive season; he has a better PPG with a generally worse environment offensively over the course of the season.

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04-07-2013, 03:30 AM
  #691
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Fedorov better, much better. Much more complete player.

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04-07-2013, 02:16 PM
  #692
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post


Zhamnov was a 2nd-team all-star and one of the ten best forwards in the league in 94-95, and his season the next year was not much below that level. I'd rank Yzerman close maybe, but Shanahan no way.
And Yzerman was a 2nd team all star in 2000. Shanahan was probably the leagues best power forward at that point. He was better than Zhamnov.

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He also played a primarily defensive game. And linemates do matter. If a shooter like Selanne is playing with a highly skilled playmaker like Kariya, Housley, or Zhamnov; that's likely to improve his output over what it would be if he were stuck playing with a couple of third line grinders.
Line mates matter but not in the way you're looking at it. You're penalizing Selanne for being an elite winger pretty much. All great players have played with great players. What is your point? Selanne played with good players so we should take points away from him? I could make the same argument for Selanne on the other end. He wasn't as good defensively and Fedorov because he didnt get to play with great defensive players. Or I could say Fedorov didn't have to face top defensive pairs. It's a two way street.

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04-07-2013, 04:10 PM
  #693
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When salenne scored 76 goals in his rookie season he did in 93 when the NHl scoring was at an all-time high. Im sure 76 goals then would probably around 54 goals now. Salenne wins in one category against Old Fedi which is goal scoring. But the overall player skating defense, passing, and shooting ultimately Fedi would win.

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04-07-2013, 09:40 PM
  #694
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
And Yzerman was a 2nd team all star in 2000. Shanahan was probably the leagues best power forward at that point. He was better than Zhamnov.
First team, actually.

But you're taking 2000 and using it as an argument for 2002 skill level.

That's like me saying "Yzerman at the beginning of the 90s was the best offensive player ever not named Gretzky or Lemieux" and referencing his 88-89 season.

It's disingenuous.

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Line mates matter but not in the way you're looking at it. You're penalizing Selanne for being an elite winger pretty much. All great players have played with great players. What is your point? Selanne played with good players so we should take points away from him? I could make the same argument for Selanne on the other end. He wasn't as good defensively and Fedorov because he didnt get to play with great defensive players. Or I could say Fedorov didn't have to face top defensive pairs. It's a two way street.
A prime, 90s Steve Rucchin was better defensively than anyone Fedorov played with except for arguably a few weeks of a hobbled 2002 Steve Yzerman. There's also Saku Koivu, who is quite good defensively. Andy McDonald has always been pretty effective in his own end. Thomas Steen, Darrin Shannon, and Keith Tkachuk in Winnipeg. And there's of course Joe Sakic with the Avs.

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04-07-2013, 10:12 PM
  #695
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
First team, actually.

But you're taking 2000 and using it as an argument for 2002 skill level.

That's like me saying "Yzerman at the beginning of the 90s was the best offensive player ever not named Gretzky or Lemieux" and referencing his 88-89 season.

It's disingenuous.
You're doing the same thing with Zhamnov.



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A prime, 90s Steve Rucchin was better defensively than anyone Fedorov played with except for arguably a few weeks of a hobbled 2002 Steve Yzerman. There's also Saku Koivu, who is quite good defensively. Andy McDonald has always been pretty effective in his own end. Thomas Steen, Darrin Shannon, and Keith Tkachuk in Winnipeg. And there's of course Joe Sakic with the Avs.
Andy McDonald is nothing special defensively. Koivu is not the Koivu of old anymore. Ive seen you argue that Sakic was overrated defensivley before so dont go there. Tkachuk? Really? How bout Konstantinov, Larionov, Fetisov, Lidstrom, Chelios? You can bring up Pronger and Niedermayer but Selanne only played with Pronger for about 2 and half years.



You're really escaping the point here. Selanne was clearly better offensively. I don't know how you can refute that. He was a better player and has been for a longer time.

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04-07-2013, 10:55 PM
  #696
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
You're doing the same thing with Zhamnov.
Zhamnov played with Selanne for all of 94-95 and most of 95-96. That's the "range" I considered when comparing him to anyone who played with Fedorov, and I considered the timeframe in which those players played with Fedorov. And as I said, Yzerman for part of one season (2001-02) is the only one that's even ARGUABLE.

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Andy McDonald is nothing special defensively.
You don't finish in the same range as Craig Conroy and PJ Axelsson in Selke voting if you're not a pretty decent defender yourself.

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Koivu is not the Koivu of old anymore. Ive seen you argue that Sakic was overrated defensivley before so dont go there.
Koivu is still good defensively; his main decline has been offensive. My argument about Sakic has been against the prevailing legend that places him as some kind of two way hero since the dawn of his career, which in actuality he began his career as a pretty brutal defensive player and developed to become a solid defender. It's sort of the opposite of Yzerman; Yzerman's early career defense is underrated in hindsigt, and Sakic's is overrated. Modano is much like Sakic, in that he started off very much as a one-way player. Although Modano had even more trouble; between faceoff difficulties and defensive ineptitude, Minnesota decided Modano should play RW while he "worked it out". He even scored 50 goals as a winger.

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Tkachuk? Really?
Tkachuk has always been pretty solid defensively. Is finishing ahead of Doug Gilmour in Selke voting while Selanne's teammate not enough evidence of this for you?

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How bout Konstantinov, Larionov, Fetisov, Lidstrom, Chelios?
Yes, and Fedorov was on the ice with all of them at the same time, and never on the ice without them.

I also love how you mention the long list of names as if they were all on the team at once, rather than the fact Konstantinov didn't play after 1997, Fetisov left after 1998, and Chelios joined the team in 1999.

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You can bring up Pronger and Niedermayer but Selanne only played with Pronger for about 2 and half years.
That's about as long as Fedorov played with Coffey.

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You're really escaping the point here. Selanne was clearly better offensively. I don't know how you can refute that. He was a better player and has been for a longer time.
Better offensively is not the same as better player. Fedorov did everything except score goals better than Selanne. And that's only because he took fewer shots; he Fedorov played Selanne's style, he would have outscored him.

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04-11-2013, 02:03 AM
  #697
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Wow, some people actually think that Fedorov was a better player at scoring than Selanne and could have outscored him in the end.

Selanne just scored his 700 point after his 30 birthday. That is something that only a handfull of players have done before. Fedorov didn't even come close to that.

Selanne has also scored more goals after he turned 40, than what Fedorov scored after he turned 35...

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04-11-2013, 11:31 AM
  #698
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Wow, some people actually think that Fedorov was a better player at scoring than Selanne and could have outscored him in the end.

Selanne just scored his 700 point after his 30 birthday. That is something that only a handfull of players have done before. Fedorov didn't even come close to that.

Selanne has also scored more goals after he turned 40, than what Fedorov scored after he turned 35...
In his career, Selanne also received (0-0-2-1-1) for Selke votes, for 14 points.

To contrast:

Sergei Fedorov was (0-0-1) in his first season; 1 point (5 points by the current system). He was (22-3-1) for 120 points and a second place finish (with the most first place votes) in his second season. He'd have 246 points by the current system.

In 1995-96, the first season with five-place voting, Keith Tkachuk went (0-1-1-2-1) for the Selke, for 19 points.

You're sitting here trying to say "Selanne was a better player because he scored goals after recovering from knee surgery, while Fedorov played through a lot of nagging injuries and then went to play with his brother (for the first time on any team, ever) in the KHL."

I'm saying Fedorov was better because for the majority of their career and at their peaks, the scoring wasn't in Selanne's favor enough (if at all) to justify the difference in linemates and everything else Fedorov brought to the table.

Let's break this down; We'll use the comparables of Paul Kariya and Mike Modano. Kariya played his prime with a linemate (Selanne) who many consider to be at or near his level. Modano played much of his career as the clear "best forward" on the Stars, and at his peak played with a talented goal-scorer and arguably one of the league's top five defensive forwards ever.

Yet when it comes to the HHOF, Kariya is the one who is questioned in his "legitimacy" by most fans.

If we were to use a numerical value to state the difference: based on the ideas I posted above (not necessarily what I agree with) Modano has an 85 (and the minimum to make the Hall is a 80) and Kariya has a 78, then I would suggest the following is true:

Fedorov was better than Modano. Selanne had a longer career than Kariya. Did Selanne's longevity alone vault him not only above Kariya, but above Modano and Fedorov? Because that's what you're suggesting.

And if you answer yes, you might as well ignore Bobby Orr in future "best player" threads because you will have established that you value longevity a great deal over peak/prime.

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04-11-2013, 06:52 PM
  #699
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Even though I disagree with much of Eva's reasoning, seriously, the sum of what Selanne brought to the table over his career does not match what Fedorov did. Not everything can be measured in stats (I'll take a European approach here )

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04-11-2013, 09:55 PM
  #700
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Fedorov just stopped caring in the regular season.

Give me playoff Fedorov over pretty much anyone of his era.

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