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Is Crosby overrated?

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Old
04-02-2013, 02:41 PM
  #301
Rhiessan71
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Heh let me put this in perspective...

Bobby Orr always gets knocked for missing time.

After 8 seasons, Bobby Orr had only played 89% of his teams games
After 8 seasons, Sidney Crosby has only played 77% of his teams games (and that % is about to drop even further before his 8th season is even completed)

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04-02-2013, 08:40 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by radapex View Post
If Crosby had been able to stay healthy over his career, we're probably looking at 3-4 more Art Ross and at least a couple more Hart + Pearson trophies.

To put his numbers in perspective, he's currently 4th in NHL career points per game at 1.414 behind Bossy (1.497), Lemieux (1.883), and Gretzky (1.921). He's also 4th in playoff points per game at 1.324 behind Barry Pederson (1.529), Lemieux (1.607), and Gretzky (1.837).

The second best among active players, on both counts, is Malkin at 1.229 and 1.191. Over the course of an 82-game season, that adds up to 116 points for Crosby and 101 points for Malkin - a pretty significant difference.

That's where the problem with accolades comes into play. Due to his various injuries, Crosby's career can really only be judged on an entire body of work instead of seasonal. This much is made pretty apparent when realizing that he's in his 8th NHL season but has played less than 6 seasons worth of games.
Those guys though played more than 700 games in their careers correct?

Playing more games usually means your PPG is bound to drop. Was Jagr's PPG this low lets say 10 years ago? Nope.

In fact in Jagr's first 11 seasons he played 806 games and scored 1079 Pts, that's a PPG of 1.34 (0.07 less than Crosby's) in games worth 4 more seasons total.

In 10 years time I would like to see what Crosby's PPG will look like. Lindros at one point had a PPG comparable to Crosby's in the same timeframe, we all know what happened to Lindors.

Hockey stats aren't always linear.

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04-02-2013, 08:55 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Don't confuse skill with trait. Shooting accurately is a skill, being injury prone is a trait. Both skills AND traits go into a player's makeup. Crosby is injury prone, bottom-line.
Here are the google definitions of a trait.

1 A distinguishing quality or characteristic, typically one belonging to a person.
2 A genetically determined characteristic.

Being injury prone is something one can only tell in hindsight, if you have a crystal ball please share with us as traits are generally not acquired.

If you were on here in 06 saying that Crosby is injury prone that's one thing but to say it after the fact then attach the term trait to it.....is well a real stretch.

Perhaps your working definition is a bit different?

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04-02-2013, 08:58 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Hahaha, yeah it was in numerous Bourque vs Lidstrom threads where you tried to preach Lidstrom's relatively injury free career as a skill. One that you tried to use to propel him above Bourque and especially Orr.

This is getting ridiculous, seriously, I am literally sitting here shaking my head and laughing as I type this
Pretty sure I didn't say that as it would not matter very much in comparing Bourque or Lidstrom would it?

either way health isn't a skill.

I'm pretty sure we could track elite players over time, say top 10 scoring leaders and find that more recent guys get injured more often.

Probably has more to do with other factors than skill or even luck.

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04-02-2013, 09:02 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Heh let me put this in perspective...

Bobby Orr always gets knocked for missing time.

After 8 seasons, Bobby Orr had only played 89% of his teams games
After 8 seasons, Sidney Crosby has only played 77% of his teams games (and that % is about to drop even further before his 8th season is even completed)
actually the missing time for Orr doesn't hurt him with 99% of people.

I'm one of the rare ones that factor career (perhaps higher than others) as well as peak, prime ect.....

Forsberg, Lindros, Kariya on the other hand get knocked for missing time.

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04-02-2013, 09:06 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Those guys though played more than 700 games in their careers correct?

Playing more games usually means your PPG is bound to drop. Was Jagr's PPG this low lets say 10 years ago? Nope.

In fact in Jagr's first 11 seasons he played 806 games and scored 1079 Pts, that's a PPG of 1.34 (0.07 less than Crosby's) in games worth 4 more seasons total.

In 10 years time I would like to see what Crosby's PPG will look like. Lindros at one point had a PPG comparable to Crosby's in the same timeframe, we all know what happened to Lindors.

Hockey stats aren't always linear.
What you say is true and we have to see exactly how much more sid plays but he is only 25.

At some point he will probably play more games than Orr, Lindros and Foppa but no doubt people will still use (both fairly and unfairly) the missed time against him.

Does anyone see his decline starting yet?

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04-02-2013, 09:16 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Here are the google definitions of a trait.

1 A distinguishing quality or characteristic, typically one belonging to a person.
2 A genetically determined characteristic.

Being injury prone is something one can only tell in hindsight, if you have a crystal ball please share with us as traits are generally not acquired.

If you were on here in 06 saying that Crosby is injury prone that's one thing but to say it after the fact then attach the term trait to it.....is well a real stretch.

Perhaps your working definition is a bit different?
I use the old-fashioned sports definition of injury prone: If a player can't stay healthy season after season then he's injury prone. Freeman McNeil was injury prone, Walter Payton was not. Bill Walton was injury prone, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was not. Eric Lindros was injury prone, Wayne Gretzky was not. It really isn't a hard concept.

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04-02-2013, 11:13 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
I use the old-fashioned sports definition of injury prone: If a player can't stay healthy season after season then he's injury prone. Freeman McNeil was injury prone, Walter Payton was not. Bill Walton was injury prone, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was not. Eric Lindros was injury prone, Wayne Gretzky was not. It really isn't a hard concept.
Yes after the fact it isn't but if it part of a player's makeup we could forecast it ahead of time right?

The problem is that everyone arguing that it is a skill or trait or makeup can only say so after the fact and not predict the seemingly present trait, skill or makeup ahead of time thus clouding whether it's actually what they portray or something that just happens.

Also like I said before if the rate of injuries has gone up for elite players, and I'm pretty sure it has, then other external factors outside of any players "makeup" might be more at play right?

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04-02-2013, 11:19 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Yes after the fact it isn't but if it part of a player's makeup we could forecast it ahead of time right?

The problem is that everyone arguing that it is a skill or trait or makeup can only say so after the fact and not predict the seemingly present trait, skill or makeup ahead of time thus clouding whether it's actually what they portray or something that just happens.

Also like I said before if the rate of injuries has gone up for elite players, and I'm pretty sure it has, then other external factors outside of any players "makeup" might be more at play right?
If you're ranking someone on what you think they're going to do in the future you're already off track. It doesn't matter what criteria you're basing it on. You rank players on what they've done or didn't do not on what you think they might do. And a player's injury history is part of what they have or haven't done.

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04-02-2013, 11:43 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
If you're ranking someone on what you think they're going to do in the future you're already off track. It doesn't matter what criteria you're basing it on. You rank players on what they've done or didn't do not on what you think they might do. And a player's injury history is part of what they have or haven't done.
I tend to rank guys on what they have done up until now and do that compared to a similar time period for past players.

We can speculate that Sid probably isn't declining at 25 but we still ahve no crystal balls.

His dedication skill set and work ethic are all things we can see now and part from concussions we don't know if he is injury prone or not and really can't predict that in the future.

All that we can say is that he is more likely to get hurt as he is a player in 2013 than a comparable guy in say 1974.

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04-02-2013, 11:51 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I tend to rank guys on what they have done up until now and do that compared to a similar time period for past players.

We can speculate that Sid probably isn't declining at 25 but we still ahve no crystal balls.

His dedication skill set and work ethic are all things we can see now and part from concussions we don't know if he is injury prone or not and really can't predict that in the future.

All that we can say is that he is more likely to get hurt as he is a player in 2013 than a comparable guy in say 1974.
So don't predict the future. You can only compare players by what is not what you think might be. Crosby could lay an egg next year. You don't know, so why speculate? We know what Gretzky did. We know what Crosby has done. And that's the only thing you can compare them on. Maybes and might-have-beens don't feed the bulldog.


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04-03-2013, 12:00 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
So don't predict the future. You can only compare players by what it not what you think might be. Crosby could lay an egg next year. You don't know, so why speculate? We know what Gretzky did. We know what Crosby has done. And that's the only thing you can compare them on. Maybes and might-have-beens don't feed the bulldog.
Who is speculating?

Maybe you can refer to the posters that are doing so.

As for knowing what Gretzky did and what Sid did we also know that they did so at different times against different players so it's going to get really hard to "only judge what they did."

One also has to look at their competition and the differences in the league and man a whole set of other factors since this isn't a tennis match with Sid and Wayne going head to head.

Context matters when comparing any two players which I'm sure you will agree with.

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04-03-2013, 12:26 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Heh let me put this in perspective...

Bobby Orr always gets knocked for missing time.

After 8 seasons, Bobby Orr had only played 89% of his teams games
After 8 seasons, Sidney Crosby has only played 77% of his teams games (and that % is about to drop even further before his 8th season is even completed)
The missing time for Orr is a shortened career, compared to other all time great Dmen, not so much in season injuries, which were less prevalent in Orr's time.

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04-03-2013, 12:31 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Who is speculating?

Maybe you can refer to the posters that are doing so.

As for knowing what Gretzky did and what Sid did we also know that they did so at different times against different players so it's going to get really hard to "only judge what they did."

One also has to look at their competition and the differences in the league and man a whole set of other factors since this isn't a tennis match with Sid and Wayne going head to head.

Context matters when comparing any two players which I'm sure you will agree with.
Are you kidding me?

You think that because so many of us are unwilling to place Crosby, after only playing around 75% of 8 seasons so far, above an Yzerman or a Sakic or a Jagr ALL-TIME???

That's *** ridiculous!

You say you're only dealing with what has happened and not dealing in predictions?
I call ********!
That's EXACTLY what you're doing when you make these arguments for Crosby over the aforementioned guys already.
A hell of a lot can happen in the next 10 years for Crosby.
Just ask Eric Lindros.

Today's players don't need "protection" from posters not giving them enough respect. What they need is "protection" from posters who give them far too much, far too soon that causes this so called problem of yours in the first place.

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04-03-2013, 12:47 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Are you kidding me?

You think that because so many of us are unwilling to place Crosby, after only playing around 75% of 8 seasons so far, above an Yzerman or a Sakic or a Jagr ALL-TIME???

That's *** ridiculous!
show me where I ever saw that sid's 8 seasons are better than the 3 guys total career that you mention?

I always compare apples with apples and Sid so far with the comparable time frame of those 3 guys.

So drop the personal attack when what you quote me a s saying isn't even true.

Quote:
You say you're only dealing with what has happened and not dealing in predictions?
I call ********!
That's EXACTLY what you're doing when you make these arguments for Crosby over the aforementioned guys already.
A hell of a lot can happen in the next 10 years for Crosby.
Just ask Eric Lindros.
Read above

Quote:
Today's players don't need "protection" from posters not giving them enough respect. What they need is "protection" from posters who give them far too much, far too soon that causes this so called problem of yours in the first place.
Look the sticky is there so people can't run them down as not being able to play in the league today.

Calling current players robots, Michelin men....ect is pretty much the same thing IMO.

I respect all players from all eras, I just with you would do the same and while you are at it actually read my posts before you come in screaming about conclusions I didn't make.

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04-03-2013, 02:35 AM
  #316
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Please keep this thread about Sidney Crosby and keep the conversation about players of today vs players of yesterday in general to the appropriate thread.

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04-03-2013, 08:48 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
There is another thread on this somewhere but it's not a skill, it comes down basically to luck, if it was a skill then we should be able to predict it somewhat.

What we have now is a hindsight analysis of guys being injury prone.

So in other words being injury prone or not would be more accurate to describe what happened in a players career, sort of like playoffs, rather than part of his makeup.
I don't think a player necessarily chooses to be injury prone. It just happens. Whether that is a skill or not was a hotly debated thing in another thread. But I will say this, with Lindros even before he got hurt you always knew somehow, someway he wasn't going to play a full season. Whether it was a hit that got him concussed or a collapsed lung it was almost something you could set your watch by. It was inevitable. I don't know about the rest of the posters, but I have the exact same feeling about Crosby that I did about Lindros. He hasn't won an Art Ross in 6 years and only one to boot. He hasn't had a full season of hockey in three years. He's played in one all-star game in his career because of injuries. Maybe he still wins the Hart, we'll see, but for whatever reason it has come to the point where you expect things to do sour for Crosby. An injury like that doesn't surprise me anymore.

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
What is Patrick Kane now chopped liver?

I know his raw stats don't look as good as guys in the 80's.......

The guy is a really skilled player on a really great team.

That being said it's unfortunate that Sid got a bad break here, like it's some sort of skill staying healthy or something.

He might still come back and win the Hart anyways.
I don't know, a better player than Patrick Kane should win the Hart, don't you think? I hope at least. No, he isn't chopped liver, but to watch the Hawks I would consider Toews' role more valuable. Just saying.

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04-03-2013, 09:17 PM
  #318
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I don't think a player necessarily chooses to be injury prone. It just happens. Whether that is a skill or not was a hotly debated thing in another thread. But I will say this, with Lindros even before he got hurt you always knew somehow, someway he wasn't going to play a full season. Whether it was a hit that got him concussed or a collapsed lung it was almost something you could set your watch by. It was inevitable. I don't know about the rest of the posters, but I have the exact same feeling about Crosby that I did about Lindros. He hasn't won an Art Ross in 6 years and only one to boot. He hasn't had a full season of hockey in three years. He's played in one all-star game in his career because of injuries. Maybe he still wins the Hart, we'll see, but for whatever reason it has come to the point where you expect things to do sour for Crosby. An injury like that doesn't surprise me anymore.



I don't know, a better player than Patrick Kane should win the Hart, don't you think? I hope at least. No, he isn't chopped liver, but to watch the Hawks I would consider Toews' role more valuable. Just saying.
Kane is extremely skilled, as good as Kariya in my mind, it's the era that's keeping his stats down.

Toews might have a more valuable role but the Hart rarely goes to a guy like him (2way) unless they also score at a very very high rate, like Messier did.

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04-03-2013, 09:32 PM
  #319
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Kane is extremely skilled, as good as Kariya in my mind, it's the era that's keeping his stats down.
Remind us all how many Hart's Kariya won again

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04-03-2013, 09:34 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Kane is extremely skilled, as good as Kariya in my mind, it's the era that's keeping his stats down. Toews might have a more valuable role but the Hart rarely goes to a guy like him (2way) unless they also score at a very very high rate, like Messier did.
Agreed. I've never seen a player as young as Crosby who has missed so many games be considered the best in any team sport. It's easier for some Americans who don't know hockey to peg a great Pen as the next Jagr. As for Kane, his goals are top 5 and his assists are top 15 in the league. Posters here argue that Jagr's and Selanne's offense alone makes them all time greats, why can't can't Kane's offense be considered one of the best this season?

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04-04-2013, 01:28 AM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Remind us all how many Hart's Kariya won again
The list of great players won never won a Hart is very long and I was talking about the two players similar skill sets.

One could probably make a really good case that the top 10 guys that never won a Hart, you know guys like Bourque and Lidstrom, heck even only forwards, have a better collective resume than the 10 worst Hart winners.

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04-04-2013, 02:03 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The list of great players won never won a Hart is very long and I was talking about the two players similar skill sets.

One could probably make a really good case that the top 10 guys that never won a Hart, you know guys like Bourque and Lidstrom, heck even only forwards, have a better collective resume than the 10 worst Hart winners.
Excuse me but YOU clearly made the distinction that Kane was Hart worthy because he is comparable to Kariya.

What's even worse is you actually tried to say that Kane's points are stagnated by the ERA he is playing in. Meanwhile, Kariya played the bulk of his career and ALL of his prime during the freakin DEAD PUCK ERA!

I'm still trying to control my laughter on this one

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04-04-2013, 08:22 PM
  #323
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Excuse me but YOU clearly made the distinction that Kane was Hart worthy because he is comparable to Kariya.

What's even worse is you actually tried to say that Kane's points are stagnated by the ERA he is playing in. Meanwhile, Kariya played the bulk of his career and ALL of his prime during the freakin DEAD PUCK ERA!

I'm still trying to control my laughter on this one
Kane as a player reminds me of Kariya skill wise (then I had a comma and was talking about Kane once again)

Or do you think that Kane would score less in the 80's?

Kane, Kariya and Sid would all fly in the 80's but until we get a time machine we wouldn't know by how much.

Kariya is just another case of how the modern game with increased contact and collisions has impacted elite players negatively.

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04-04-2013, 10:08 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Kane as a player reminds me of Kariya skill wise (then I had a comma and was talking about Kane once again)

Or do you think that Kane would score less in the 80's?

Kane, Kariya and Sid would all fly in the 80's but until we get a time machine we wouldn't know by how much.

Kariya is just another case of how the modern game with increased contact and collisions has impacted elite players negatively.
Hmmm. I have the odd criticism of Kariya but I don't remember a time Kane was close to being the best player in the game. There was a time Kariya was considered (arguably) the best in the game. I think this would be after 1997 when Mario retired and it was assumed Kariya was going to continue after that spectacular 1996-'97 season. As good as Kane was in, say, the 2010 playoffs, I don't think he has ever had a Hart worthy season, nor was he as good as Kariya in his prime. There is still time but Kariya was an awfully explosive player if only for a short time.

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04-04-2013, 10:31 PM
  #325
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Hmmm. I have the odd criticism of Kariya but I don't remember a time Kane was close to being the best player in the game. There was a time Kariya was considered (arguably) the best in the game. I think this would be after 1997 when Mario retired and it was assumed Kariya was going to continue after that spectacular 1996-'97 season. As good as Kane was in, say, the 2010 playoffs, I don't think he has ever had a Hart worthy season, nor was he as good as Kariya in his prime. There is still time but Kariya was an awfully explosive player if only for a short time.
I agree and to clarify, Kane reminds me of Kariya but not quite as explosive.

Like I have said before it would be scary to think how good Kariya might have been in the 80's with his skating and high end skillset.

He did thrive in the "clutch and grab era" until fate caught up with him.

Lots of elite injuries in the 90's and beyond, I'm sure the numbers will clarify that but haven't had time to do a complete study or anything on it.

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