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Fire Bowman Part III

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04-03-2013, 09:50 AM
  #626
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
He gets credit for the players he brought in, but if the team was expected to win the Cup as he set it up, we would have expected that and nobody did, so what does that tell you about the team he assembled?
1 of 30 teams wins the cup each year. If whether a team was expected to win the cup was the only measure of a GM's worth, 29 of them would be out of a job each year.

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04-03-2013, 09:54 AM
  #627
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So the players get the credit for getting better, but Bowman gets not credit for acquiring those players. Got it. Drafting Saad, drafting Shaw, trading for Stalberg, Leddy, Frolik and Oduya, promoting Bickell, Crawford, Kruger, signing Hossa, Emery, Rosival....no credit for any of that. Only if you make deadline moves do you get credit for anything. The rest of the year....nothing matters. Got it.
Holmgren looks better for overpaying for Kubina or Grossman towards the deadline a but many will say Bowman sits around and does nothing when he signs two dmen in the offseason.

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04-03-2013, 09:55 AM
  #628
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1 of 30 teams wins the cup each year. If whether a team was expected to win the cup was the only measure of a GM's worth, 29 of them would be out of a job each year.
This post led me to look up the current NHL GMs by tenure. My god, there are some GMs who have been around too long who have never won anything.

Buffalo Sabres Darcy Regier June 11, 1996
Washington Capitals George McPhee June 9, 1997
Nashville Predators David Poile December 11, 1997

I think Poile is a good GM but is tied by the Preds internal cap.

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04-03-2013, 09:56 AM
  #629
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So I'm curious: You guys have your torches and pitchforks ready to go at 3?

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04-03-2013, 09:57 AM
  #630
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1 of 30 teams wins the cup each year. If whether a team was expected to win the cup was the only measure of a GM's worth, 29 of them would be out of a job each year.
First of all, this is the Chicago Blackhawks, it's not a typical situation.

IMO, the roster is a 4th or 5th seed that should be expected to make the second round, so it's better than last year for sure, and you can see that in the development of guys like Shaw, Saad, Leddy and Kruger.

So why are they in 1st place then?

It all goes back to the lockout for me. We have a much younger team than most. Almost all of them were extremely committed to being in great shape even though we didn't know if there would be a season or not. The Hawks looked better than any team in the league first couple months and it really wasn't even close. They have a lot of confidence now and definitely have a shot at the Cup that wasn't expected last year, the year before or even going into this season. Congrats to them on their hard work. Still, at this point teams have all shaken off any rust and are in midseason form. This would be the time to add a significant piece to get the same type of advantage back that they had the first couple months. Neglecting to do that may expose this team.

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Old
04-03-2013, 10:04 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
First of all, this is the Chicago Blackhawks, it's not a typical situation.

IMO, the roster is a 4th or 5th seed that should be expected to make the second round, so it's better than last year for sure, and you can see that in the development of guys like Shaw, Saad, Leddy and Kruger.

So why are they in 1st place then?

It all goes back to the lockout for me. We have a much younger team than most. Almost all of them were extremely committed to being in great shape even though we didn't know if there would be a season or not. The Hawks looked better than any team in the league first couple months and it really wasn't even close. They have a lot of confidence now and definitely have a shot at the Cup that wasn't expected last year, the year before or even going into this season. Congrats to them on their hard work. Still, at this point teams have all shaken off any rust and are in midseason form. This would be the time to add a significant piece to get the same type of advantage back that they had the first couple months. Neglecting to do that may expose this team.
Because Emery and Crawford have both been playing better this year than last year. We also haven't lost Toews for 1/3 of the season with a concussion. Kane has bounced back and is playing well.

Even last post-season, it's not as easy as pinning our first round exit on Bowman and a lack of 2c.

Sharp and Kane didn't show up for the first round and Toews didn't play particularly well (although he had an excuse obviously). Crawford let in some horrible, horrible goals. Obviously, Hossa getting injured didn't help the situation.

You can point a finger at holes in the roster - but the players we did have by and large did not play well - especially those who needed to play well to have an extended play off run.

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04-03-2013, 10:06 AM
  #632
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So I'm curious: You guys have your torches and pitchforks ready to go at 3?
There isn't anything new to say at that time that hasn't already been said. We know nothing is going to happen. We've known that for quite some time. That's just how this guy is, he came out and said he wouldn't make any moves and he meant it. You can call that GM speak but he's been doing during every transaction period the last 4 years. He doesn't like to make trades, period.

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04-03-2013, 10:07 AM
  #633
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I still don't buy that magically the Hawks were just somehow more prepared and in better shape than all the other 29 teams in the league. Are they as good as their streak? No, I don't think any team is ever as good as a major streak like that, but that doesn't happen on accident. Yeah, you catch some breaks along the way, but so do teams in any sport throughout a season in which they win a title. I just don't buy that they, out of 30 teams, were the only one that somehow were in better shape, figuratively and literally, out of every team in the league. What did they do that other teams didn't? There are other teams in the league with youth, with guys who played in the AHL and in Europe, who were skating with other guys in practices in stuff. I just don't see what they did or what they have that made them more prepared than 29 other National Hockey League teams coming out of the lockout.

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04-03-2013, 10:09 AM
  #634
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Because Emery and Crawford have both been playing better this year than last year. We also haven't lost Toews for 1/3 of the season with a concussion. Kane has bounced back and is playing well.

Even last post-season, it's not as easy as pinning our first round exit on Bowman and a lack of 2c.

Sharp and Kane didn't show up for the first round and Toews didn't play particularly well (although he had an excuse obviously). Crawford let in some horrible, horrible goals. Obviously, Hossa getting injured didn't help the situation.

You can point a finger at holes in the roster - but the players we did have by and large did not play well - especially those who needed to play well to have an extended play off run.
We will see. My theory will only be tested by the playoff performance and performance next year (should the roster remain pretty much the same). I think the lockout is the biggest reason we are in 1st. Yes, credit goes to the players but I think the lockout gets a huge assist if the team wins the Cup. It's never a normal year coming off a lockout and thankfully, the Hawks players did take full advantage.

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04-03-2013, 10:09 AM
  #635
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1 of 30 teams wins the cup each year. If whether a team was expected to win the cup was the only measure of a GM's worth, 29 of them would be out of a job each year.
Stupid post and one that is brought up way too often. No one is expecting the Oilers, Blue Jackets, Panthers, Islanders, etc. to win a Cup.

However for a few GMs of teams with elite talent then yes playoff and therefore Cup success is used. For the Pens, Bruins, Hawks, Canucks, etc it's either Cup or really close otherwise it's a failure.

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04-03-2013, 10:09 AM
  #636
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
There isn't anything new to say at that time that hasn't already been said. We know nothing is going to happen. We've known that for quite some time. That's just how this guy is, he came out and said he wouldn't make any moves and he meant it. You can call that GM speak but he's been doing during every transaction period the last 4 years. He doesn't like to make trades, period.
This is the Detroit model. You draft well, build internally, develop your players, and don't overpay in markets. So far it's working out okay. People have no patience. This team will remain competitive and compete for many cups in the next decade if they continue to stick with the plan and don't succumb to the noise.

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04-03-2013, 10:09 AM
  #637
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
First of all, this is the Chicago Blackhawks, it's not a typical situation.

IMO, the roster is a 4th or 5th seed that should be expected to make the second round, so it's better than last year for sure, and you can see that in the development of guys like Shaw, Saad, Leddy and Kruger.

So why are they in 1st place then?

It all goes back to the lockout for me. We have a much younger team than most. Almost all of them were extremely committed to being in great shape even though we didn't know if there would be a season or not. The Hawks looked better than any team in the league first couple months and it really wasn't even close. They have a lot of confidence now and definitely have a shot at the Cup that wasn't expected last year, the year before or even going into this season. Congrats to them on their hard work. Still, at this point teams have all shaken off any rust and are in midseason form. This would be the time to add a significant piece to get the same type of advantage back that they had the first couple months. Neglecting to do that may expose this team.
What rosters would you say are demonstrably better in the West? I think this roster as of right now is easily top 3 talent-wise. The issue the last couple year was cheap vets slowing down the rest of the roster and a lack of committed focus with regards to defense. Both of those have been rectified/improved and have manifested in a team with the best record in the NHL.

Now this should not preclude the team from making moves that can put it over the top, but to act like this team is a 5th seed when it is clearly the most talented and complete team in the division is farcical.

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Old
04-03-2013, 10:10 AM
  #638
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
First of all, this is the Chicago Blackhawks, it's not a typical situation.

IMO, the roster is a 4th or 5th seed that should be expected to make the second round, so it's better than last year for sure, and you can see that in the development of guys like Shaw, Saad, Leddy and Kruger.

So why are they in 1st place then?

It all goes back to the lockout for me. We have a much younger team than most. Almost all of them were extremely committed to being in great shape even though we didn't know if there would be a season or not. The Hawks looked better than any team in the league first couple months and it really wasn't even close. They have a lot of confidence now and definitely have a shot at the Cup that wasn't expected last year, the year before or even going into this season. Congrats to them on their hard work. Still, at this point teams have all shaken off any rust and are in midseason form. This would be the time to add a significant piece to get the same type of advantage back that they had the first couple months. Neglecting to do that may expose this team.
I've been wondering lately if the streak was the worst thing that could have happened to this team. I'd hate to see a good team fall short because people bought into the hype of something that has just as much to do with luck as skill.

This team IMO is a 2 or 3 seed. Definitley not the 80's Oilers where chemistry would be a concern. It's too bad, there were a few players that could have helped that were traded for scraps yesterday.

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04-03-2013, 10:11 AM
  #639
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I still don't buy that magically the Hawks were just somehow more prepared and in better shape than all the other 29 teams in the league. Are they as good as their streak? No, I don't think any team is ever as good as a major streak like that, but that doesn't happen on accident. Yeah, you catch some breaks along the way, but so do teams in any sport throughout a season in which they win a title. I just don't buy that they, out of 30 teams, were the only one that somehow were in better shape, figuratively and literally, out of every team in the league. What did they do that other teams didn't? There are other teams in the league with youth, with guys who played in the AHL and in Europe, who were skating with other guys in practices in stuff. I just don't see what they did or what they have that made them more prepared than 29 other National Hockey League teams coming out of the lockout.
Who said that was the case? Look at the Ducks. They didn't even make the playoffs last year.

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04-03-2013, 10:13 AM
  #640
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
We will see. My theory will only be tested by the playoff performance and performance next year (should the roster remain pretty much the same). I think the lockout is the biggest reason we are in 1st. Yes, credit goes to the players but I think the lockout gets a huge assist if the team wins the Cup. It's never a normal year coming off a lockout and thankfully, the Hawks players did take full advantage.
They'll take a step back next year losing Stalberg and Bickell. That 3rd line was awesome for the first half of the season, its a big reason we are in first now.

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04-03-2013, 10:13 AM
  #641
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
There isn't anything new to say at that time that hasn't already been said. We know nothing is going to happen. We've known that for quite some time. That's just how this guy is, he came out and said he wouldn't make any moves and he meant it. You can call that GM speak but he's been doing during every transaction period the last 4 years. He doesn't like to make trades, period.
And he shouldn't have to when the club is competing with a roster almost completely composed of all-stars for the NHL lead

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04-03-2013, 10:14 AM
  #642
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Who said that was the case? Look at the Ducks. They didn't even make the playoffs last year.
I'm referring to coming out of the lockout. You made a comment about the Hawks' youth and guys playing during the lockout and all sorts of reasons as to why they had less rust than everyone else in the league and the rest of the league is shaking off said rust now and catching up. What did the Hawks magically do that every other team didn't during the lockout to make them so much more prepared? Legit question, not being a smartass. I've been hearing this from you now and Bobby's been saying it all season.

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04-03-2013, 10:16 AM
  #643
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The #1 team in the league isn't. This place is pants on head retarded sometimes.

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04-03-2013, 10:18 AM
  #644
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The #1 team in the league isn't. This place is pants on head retarded sometimes.
Close to just bowing out of this thread permanently, generally speaking.

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04-03-2013, 10:24 AM
  #645
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
We will see. My theory will only be tested by the playoff performance and performance next year (should the roster remain pretty much the same). I think the lockout is the biggest reason we are in 1st. Yes, credit goes to the players but I think the lockout gets a huge assist if the team wins the Cup. It's never a normal year coming off a lockout and thankfully, the Hawks players did take full advantage.
So you're saying that any team winning the Cup this year gets an asterisk? Or just if the Hawks do it?

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04-03-2013, 10:27 AM
  #646
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I'm referring to coming out of the lockout. You made a comment about the Hawks' youth and guys playing during the lockout and all sorts of reasons as to why they had less rust than everyone else in the league and the rest of the league is shaking off said rust now and catching up. What did the Hawks magically do that every other team didn't during the lockout to make them so much more prepared? Legit question, not being a smartass. I've been hearing this from you now and Bobby's been saying it all season.
For starters, we have Toews. He is a natural leader and helped keep everyone focused. He held workouts from the beginning up until the end. I'd like to see the complete lists of all teams and how many guys played overseas, but IIRC, we had about 10 and had Toews leading workouts in Chicago. I believe the total to play overseas from the NHL was about 200. So if that is in fact the case, had almost double what the average team would have. Adding even more to that is that fact that neither Toews, nor Sharp, nor Hossa, nor Keith, nor Seabrook were any of the players that did go over there. It was the mid range and depth type guys for the most part and I don't think there is any question that we all credit that aspect of the team the most when it comes to the hot start and the great record.

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04-03-2013, 10:28 AM
  #647
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So you're saying that any team winning the Cup this year gets an asterisk? Or just if the Hawks do it?
Yeah I still don't understand how the lockout changes anything. All 30 teams are playing under the same conditions, hell, some worse than others in some cases. Hawks started the first part of the season on the road for how long? Even taking that out of it, it was a lockout season for everyone. If it somehow acts as an "assist" to the Hawks then it acts as "assist" to any team that wins it. Shortened season or not, every team plays the same amount of games and same brutal schedule of a condensed season.

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04-03-2013, 10:31 AM
  #648
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So you're saying that any team winning the Cup this year gets an asterisk? Or just if the Hawks do it?
LOL, of course not. But you can't deny this is a much different season than your average one and the lockout is the reason why. All of the teams had to deal with it though so there is no asterisk.

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04-03-2013, 10:32 AM
  #649
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I think that grossly disrespects the rest of the league. This isn't a men's league. These are paid professionals at the highest level of their craft. They might have been slow for a week or two, but you don't go on a historic streak to start a season because the other teams were eating doughnuts the entire lockout.

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04-03-2013, 10:33 AM
  #650
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I think that grossly disrespects the rest of the league. This isn't a men's league. These are paid professionals at the highest level of their craft. They might have been slow for a week or two, but you don't go on a historic streak to start a season because the other teams were eating doughnuts the entire lockout.
Yeah, no ****.

This thread is past the point of being ridiculous.

The Hawks as assembled are a 4 seed...that was actually said

I'm done here.

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