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Fire Bowman Part III

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04-03-2013, 10:34 AM
  #651
coldsteelonice84
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
I think that grossly disrespects the rest of the league. This isn't a men's league. These are paid professionals at the highest level of their craft. They might have been slow for a week or two, but you don't go on a historic streak to start a season because the other teams were eating doughnuts the entire lockout.
A factor is a factor and this season reminds me a lot of 2005-06, which also had a lot of unsual stuff happen. It's not like I'm making this up. Ask anyone.

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04-03-2013, 10:35 AM
  #652
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1 of 30 teams wins the cup each year. If whether a team was expected to win the cup was the only measure of a GM's worth, 29 of them would be out of a job each year.
I'm not bashing anything here - but it's absurd to act like Stan Bowman is on even footing with the other 29 GM's. The other 29 GMs didn't waltz in to a job having a core of Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook (plus tons of assets to trade off for picks and prospects) already locked in.

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04-03-2013, 10:37 AM
  #653
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I'm not bashing anything here - but it's absurd to act like Stan Bowman is on even footing with the other 29 GM's. The other 29 GMs didn't waltz in to a job having a core of Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook already locked in.
Apparently, by resigning them, Bowman gets credit for "assembling" them so what can you say to that. It's lunacy.

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04-03-2013, 10:37 AM
  #654
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
A factor is a factor and this season reminds me a lot of 2005-06, which also had a lot of unsual stuff happen. It's not like I'm making this up. Ask anyone.
700 years ago if you asked anyone they'd say the world was flat. That doesn't make them right.

It's seriously deluded thinking.

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04-03-2013, 10:39 AM
  #655
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
700 years ago if you asked anyone they'd say the world was flat. That doesn't make them right.

It's seriously deluded thinking.
So you're saying seasons off a lockout are just the same as any other, alright.

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04-03-2013, 10:40 AM
  #656
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Apparently, by resigning them, Bowman gets credit for "assembling" them so what can you say to that. It's lunacy.
Who's claiming he assembled them? I didn't see that anywhere. He should get some credit for keeping the core intact and locking them in long term but no one's saying he "assembled" them. If they do they're wrong. He had nothing to do with them coming here in the first place, he just did his job well and retained them.

As for a lockout season being hte same as any other, no, it's not....but you make it sound like the Hawks are the only ones that would somehow benefit from it if they won it all. It would somehow be an "assist". Every team is playing in the same conditions...given that, I fail to see how winning a title this season comes with getting an assist from said season. Assist how? Why is winning a title this season, whoever does it, different than any other? Every team is playing under the same conditions.

I don't hear anyone claiming Miami got an assist when they won the NBA title last year in a shortened season.

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04-03-2013, 10:41 AM
  #657
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
So you're saying seasons off a lockout are just the same as any other, alright.
I'd love for you to take those words out of my mouth and show me where they came from.

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04-03-2013, 10:42 AM
  #658
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
I'm not bashing anything here - but it's absurd to act like Stan Bowman is on even footing with the other 29 GM's. The other 29 GMs didn't waltz in to a job having a core of Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook (plus tons of assets to trade off for picks and prospects) already locked in.
No other GM had to completely tear down their roster after 1 year on the job either. Also, none of those guys were locked in. All of them signed extensions with Bowman at the helm and in the case of Hossa, he was the guy Bowman targeted (with Tallon wanting Havlat).

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04-03-2013, 10:43 AM
  #659
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
I'd love for you to take those words out of my mouth and show me where they came from.
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
700 years ago if you asked anyone they'd say the world was flat. That doesn't make them right.

It's seriously deluded thinking.
Right here. What does a statement like that even mean? What is its relevance?

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04-03-2013, 10:45 AM
  #660
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This board drives me insane. It forces me on one "side" of every issue because the extremists on both sides have turned it into a black and white struggle when damn near all of them have several very contrasting shades of grey.

I don't love Bowman. I think he's built up a solid prospect pool, retained our young superstars, and built one of if not THE deepest defense in the league. He started out with a whole lot more than 95% of GM's do, for sure. I can see people being frustrated with him not adding a top 9 forward.

But saying he should be fired for it and flaming every single thing he does and coming up with excuses for why this team had the best start a NHL team has ever had - yea, that's wrong.

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04-03-2013, 10:46 AM
  #661
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Originally Posted by HawkinMI View Post
So I'm curious: You guys have your torches and pitchforks ready to go at 3?
Of course not.

It's playoff performance that matters. At the end of the day you can't reasonably expect your team to win the Cup, given how hard that is to do and the parity in today's NHL. But if the Hawks go down in, say, the first two rounds, serious questions need to be asked. Because that would be pretty inexcusable in light of this lack of real activity and apparent happiness to leave holes on the roster as is.

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04-03-2013, 10:46 AM
  #662
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
This board drives me insane. It forces me on one "side" of every issue because the extremists on both sides have turned it into a black and white struggle when damn near all of them have several very contrasting shades of grey.

I don't love Bowman. I think he's built up a solid prospect pool, retained our young superstars, and built one of if not THE deepest defense in the league. He started out with a whole lot more than 95% of GM's do, for sure. I can see people being frustrated with him not adding a top 9 forward.

But saying he should be fired for it and flaming every single thing he does and coming up with excuses for why this team had the best start a NHL team has ever had - yea, that's wrong.
And with this post I bow out of this thread. Well said. The end.

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04-03-2013, 10:47 AM
  #663
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
This board drives me insane. It forces me on one "side" of every issue because the extremists on both sides have turned it into a black and white struggle when damn near all of them have several very contrasting shades of grey.

I don't love Bowman. I think he's built up a solid prospect pool, retained our young superstars, and built one of if not THE deepest defense in the league. He started out with a whole lot more than 95% of GM's do, for sure. I can see people being frustrated with him not adding a top 9 forward.

But saying he should be fired for it and flaming every single thing he does and coming up with excuses for why this team had the best start a NHL team has ever had - yea, that's wrong.
Not everyone is an extremist. They're just the loudest. I definitely agree that "fire Bowman" is a ridiculous overreaction currently.

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04-03-2013, 10:47 AM
  #664
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
No other GM had to completely tear down their roster after 1 year on the job either. Also, none of those guys were locked in. All of them signed extensions with Bowman at the helm and in the case of Hossa, he was the guy Bowman targeted (with Tallon wanting Havlat).
He didn't have to completely tear down the roster, Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa, Sharp, Bolland, Hammer, still here and all where major parts of that Cup win. He had to rebuild the role players. That excuse is no longer relevant too since it was 3 years ago now.

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04-03-2013, 10:48 AM
  #665
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
LOL, of course not. But you can't deny this is a much different season than your average one and the lockout is the reason why. All of the teams had to deal with it though so there is no asterisk.
So if everyone has to go through the same circumstances, what makes the Hawks' case so special as to discredit it?

Other teams had lots of young guys playing during the lockout, look at the Oilers and the Wild, and they're still not doing as well as the Hawks. On the other side, I don't think a single one of the Ducks' players played during the lockout at all, and they're certainly not young, so what's up with them?

I'm really not understanding how you could make the case that this team is actually an overachieving 4-5 seed.

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04-03-2013, 10:48 AM
  #666
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Of course not.

It's playoff performance that matters. At the end of the day you can't reasonably expect your team to win the Cup, given how hard that is to do and the parity in today's NHL. But if the Hawks go down in, say, the first two rounds, serious questions need to be asked. Because that would be pretty inexcusable in light of this lack of real activity and apparent happiness to leave holes on the roster as is.

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04-03-2013, 10:48 AM
  #667
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Not everyone is an extremist. They're just the loudest. I definitely agree that "fire Bowman" is a ridiculous overreaction currently.
Someone's got to galvanize this thing, especially when there is opposition just as a extreme. The choice is either to fall in line with group think on that side or fight it.

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04-03-2013, 10:50 AM
  #668
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
He didn't have to completely tear down the roster, Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa, Sharp, Bolland, Hammer, still here and all where major parts of that Cup win. He had to rebuild the role players. That excuse is no longer relevant too since it was 3 years ago now.
Which is exactly what he did, as the standings clearly show.

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04-03-2013, 10:50 AM
  #669
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Right here. What does a statement like that even mean? What is its relevance?
You said we're a 5 seed that's only in first because of the lockout. Yes, the lockout changes things. Some teams were more ready then others. That's not what I take umbrage with.

I doubt that if the Flames had all of their guys playing in Europe during the work stoppage they'd be in a playoff spot right now.

You aren't giving this team any credit and you're downplaying the rest of the league. This team is very, very talented.

And for the record, I'd absolutely be in favor of bringing in a second line center. I'd love to see Pirri get a shot. We have a window to win now. You don't take that for granted. I think Bowman believes in Bolland and if he falters - over more than thirty games - that he should be held accountable. I agree with a bunch of your points.

That doesn't make your hatred for Bowman fair.

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04-03-2013, 10:53 AM
  #670
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Someone's got to galvanize this thing, especially when there is opposition just as a extreme. The choice is either to fall in line with group think on that side of fight it.
Meh, I enjoy the discussion and this was your way to get it going. I would certainly disagree that the Hawks are a #4/#5 seed type of roster, though. They have the best young core in the West as well as the conference's best offensive player, a very good #1 D-pairing, and improved team defensive play compared to last year.

The extremism is tiring from both sides. Bowman's the GM of one of the best teams in the NHL, he shouldn't be fired because he didn't make moves of significance at the deadline. But I do think it's at the very least fair to start asking some serious questions about him if this team flops in the playoffs again. With how good they appear to be, anything less than a conference finals appearance would be pretty much unacceptable. Yes, there's lots of parity, but some expectations are not wrong to have... just my take.

(For the record, I still would be against firing Bowman if the team doesn't make it past the first or second round. That'd be an overreaction in and of itself. This is just his second year of actual flexibility, after all. You don't want to make a habit of jettisoning guys if they don't have immediate great success).

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04-03-2013, 10:53 AM
  #671
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
I'm not bashing anything here - but it's absurd to act like Stan Bowman is on even footing with the other 29 GM's. The other 29 GMs didn't waltz in to a job having a core of Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook (plus tons of assets to trade off for picks and prospects) already locked in.
The point is that laying the blame for failing to win the Stanley Cup (a rare achievement) solely on the feet of the GM (which certain people here are insistent on doing) is completely idiotic.

Bowman is certainly not in line for any GM of the Year award...but anyone who thinks that he alone is at fault for us losing in the first round last year apparently wasn't watching very closely.

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04-03-2013, 10:54 AM
  #672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Not everyone is an extremist. They're just the loudest. I definitely agree that "fire Bowman" is a ridiculous overreaction currently.
I know not everyone is an extremist. Trust me, if they were, I wouldn't bother posting here.

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04-03-2013, 10:54 AM
  #673
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You said we're a 5 seed that's only in first because of the lockout. Yes, the lockout changes things. Some teams were more ready then others. That's what I take umbrage with.

I doubt that if the Flames had all of their guys playing in Europe during the work stoppage they'd be in a playoff spot right now.

You aren't giving this team any credit and you're downplaying the rest of the league. This team is very, very talented.

And for the record, I'd absolutely be in favor of bringing in a second line center. I'd love to see Pirri get a shot. We have a window to win now. You don't take that for granted. I think Bowman believes in Bolland and if he falters - over more than thirty games - that he should be held accountable. I agree with a bunch of your points.

That doesn't make your hatred for Bowman fair.
I'm trying to illustrate the urgency to make a move. All I keep hearing is that the team is in 1st and is fine. I don't know how to get through to people that it is far from fine. Yes, they are a contender but damn, that record is blinding people to the urgency to go for it right now and win the ****ing thing. It's just so damn important and this team really does need the help, no matter how impressive they have been.

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04-03-2013, 10:56 AM
  #674
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Which is exactly what he did, as the standings clearly show.
Don't care about regular season standings. Last year the Hawks had the best record in the NHL at about the half way point. Then came that nice little 9 game losing streak and another 1st round exit in the playoffs.

Until this team has success in the playoffs and I mean win atleast 2 rounds I am skeptical about the roster and not happy Bowman has yet to address a hole that has been here for 3 years. This isn't a new problem or one no one can quite figure out, its obvious to everyone except Bowman, or Bowman knows about it and refuses to fix or or he knows about it and can't fix it. Either way has Chris Hansen said, another early playoff exit and there are some serious questions to be asked of Bowman.

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04-03-2013, 10:56 AM
  #675
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The point is that laying the blame for failing to win the Stanley Cup (a rare achievement) solely on the feet of the GM (which certain people here are insistent on doing) is completely idiotic.

Bowman is certainly not in line for any GM of the Year award...but anyone who thinks that he alone is at fault for us losing in the first round last year apparently wasn't watching very closely.
Nobody is saying that, at least not that I have seen. However, MOST people are saying he is fine to do nothing because of the record and get no blame should the team come up short. That's really ****ed up.

And let me also note a VERY IMPORTANT part to all of this. Those same people were screaming for Q's head in the same way I want Bowman's. I mean, he was on watch from day 1. What's the difference?

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