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Ownership Saga: The Great Gosbee Edition

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Old
04-03-2013, 11:13 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by XX View Post


No, you don't. Let me spare you all. The guy gave zero concrete details, and misspoke on several counts.



Which proves what a phony he is. He didn't say how or why. He just said "as a banker, this is under-valued." Well, you're a moron then. You've got zero real buyers that have emerged because the team is overpriced. We've got years of subsidy attempts and plenty of examples in other cities as to what a small market team is worth. The asset is in no way under-valued. It is over-valued precisely because the NHL can earn back every dollar they spend and then some by selling to another market. Really, it takes a serious level of audacity (or stupidity) to claim that an asset losing 30mm annually is 'under-valued.'

The guy is a crock of ****. Exactly what you would expect of someone who introduces himself via press release. Move along. Some of you need to develop critical thinking skills.
That is not true at all. He did give several concrete details. He attended the Coyotes game last night. He met with the mayor today. He spoke with Bill Daly today. He received paperwork from the NHL today and submitted it to his lawyers. He states he has the money to buy the team from his family assets. Do you really expect him to give details on when he will purchase the team when he hasn't even read the contracts and paper work? This is not like going to McDonalds and buying a Happy Meal. You are purchasing a 170 million dollar sports team.

The team is undervalued. A 170 million for a professional sports team in one of the 4 major sports in the 12th largest television market(soon to be 11th) in the United States. Also the Phoenix metro continues to grow in size so that television market is going to become a top 10 market within the next 10-20 years.

The NHL is trying to establish itself in Phoenix because it is one of the largest television markets in the country and leagues make money through television contracts not seats. The big money is in negotiating billion dollar contracts which it can do with the more large television markets it possesses.

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04-03-2013, 11:22 PM
  #152
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That is not true at all. He did give several concrete details.
Let be more clear since this isn't working; he said **** all about how he is going to structure and/or close the deal.

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Originally Posted by coyotes View Post
He attended the Coyotes game last night. He met with the mayor today. He spoke with Bill Daly today. He received paperwork from the NHL today and submitted it to his lawyers.
Good for him. So did a few guys from Canada with zero money who wanted to play home games in Saskatchewan. Hell, they got pretty far before people realized they were just a sham like Hulsizer. And Matty boy actually put money in escrow.

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He states he has the money to buy the team from his family assets.
rt has the money. OEL has the money. Captain Coyote 96 might be a promising investor. Pastor can say whatever he wants. Nobody bothered to ask him to prove it. Until such a time that there is a personal guaranty signed, the ink dries and he takes the keys, he doesn't have the money. That he is buying the team from personal assets yet is still signing up investors for an investment that he doesn't know the details of should be a giant red flag to anyone with half a brain.

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Do you really expect him to give details on when he will purchase the team when he hasn't even read the paperwork? This is not like going to McDonalds and buying a Happy Meal. You are purchasing a 170 million dollar sports team.
Funny. You have a moment of clarity here, though your posts to date seem to fall exactly in line with the McDonalds example provided.

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The team is undervalued. A 170 million for a professional sports team in one of the 4 major sports in the 12th largest television market(soon to be 11th) market in the United States. Also the Phoenix metro continues to grow in size so that television market is going to become a top 10 market.
That is not how assets are evaluated. Certainly not sports teams. And I am being nice when I phrase it that way.

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The NHL is trying to establish itself in Phoenix because it is one of the largest television markets in the country and leagues make money through television contracts not seats. The big money is in negotiating billion dollar contracts which it can do with the more large television markets it possesses.
The NHL is a gate driven league. And, even if you want to indulge in the argument that the Coyotes are somehow relevant to the TV deals (NBC has said they are not), Seattle is an even better TV market. Stop.

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Old
04-03-2013, 11:42 PM
  #153
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It must feel good to be a naysayer, or maybe it's an opportunity to get out the frustration of the disappointment of the last 4 years of the ownership mess. I get that.
I may be the eternal optimist, but I believe something good is about to happen and we will have an owner and the team will stay put.
Now you can go ahead and tear this post apart and enjoy yourselves in the process.
Enjoy your goofy posts about investing $10 and ripping apart any and all interested suitors (who of course are all imposters)

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04-03-2013, 11:49 PM
  #154
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I don't know what is more sad now in this ownership mess:

The cluster**** itself?
or
The ever growing divide among Coyotes Fans in this mess?

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04-04-2013, 12:07 AM
  #155
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Let be more clear since this isn't working; he said **** all about how he is going to structure and/or close the deal.
This isn't difficult to understand. Do you really expect him to provide details regarding how he will close a deal when he doesn't know the terms of the deal? He just received paperwork from the NHL. What part of that did you miss?

Quote:
Good for him. So did a few guys from Canada with zero money who wanted to play home games in Saskatchewan. Hell, they got pretty far before people realized they were just a sham like Hulsizer. And Matty boy actually put money in escrow.
Except the difference is none of those investors had the money to purchase the team not even Hulsizer. Pastor doesn't require amassing an ambiguous group of potential investors to purchase the team. He has the capital right now from his family and personal wealth to purchase the team. Of course, this doesn't mean he will purchase the team or will still have the desire to purchase the team. He may very well conclude it's not a worthwhile investment.

Quote:
Pastor can say whatever he wants. Nobody bothered to ask him to prove it. Until such a time that there is a personal guaranty signed, the ink dries and he takes the keys, he doesn't have the money. That he is buying the team from personal assets yet is still signing up investors for an investment that he doesn't know the details of should be a giant red flag to anyone with half a brain.
No fan is saying is saying this is a done deal. Even if he has the money, he may choose not to purchase the team because he ultimately doesn't see it as a worthwhile investment. Again, he is not buying a car. He is buying a 170 million dollar sports franchise. Anyone with half a brain would understand that no one would provide affirmative answers in an 11 minute interview with local sports radio hosts. That is completely asinine to expect that. Do you really expect him to say "Hey check out my bank account, I'm going to buy the team on Monday" It doesn't work like that in the real world.

Quote:
Funny. You have a moment of clarity here, though your posts to date seem to fall exactly in line with the McDonalds example provided.
I'm being polite. I'm just astonished that anyone would expect a potential investor to disclose precise details when they haven't read the contracts or the paperwork or have had time to deliberate these matters. I think you should focus less on insults and more on what I just said.

Quote:
That is not how assets are evaluated. Certainly not sports teams. And I am being nice when I phrase it that way.
I was being nice as well because I assumed I didn't have to spell it out for you. Teams make money from the money dispersed by the league. As the league renegotiates television contracts, that money is dispersed among the owners which adds value to a franchise. It's completely asinine to undermine this fact when valuing an asset like a professional sports franchise. Furthermore, I'm pretty confident Pastor is not an idiot considering his education and success with his company.

Quote:
The NHL is a gate driven league. And, even if you want to indulge in the argument that the Coyotes are somehow relevant to the TV deals (NBC has said they are not), Seattle is an even better TV market. Stop.
Are you kidding me? No professional league is gate driven certainly not the NFL, NBA, MLB and yes the NHL. The bulk of their revenue comes from television contracts not the gate, concession, merchandising etc.

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04-04-2013, 12:11 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by AP View Post
I don't know what is more sad now in this ownership mess:

The cluster**** itself?
or
The ever growing divide among Coyotes Fans in this mess?
It does feel like we have been divided and conquered.

I'm sure we all want the Coyotes to stay, but I'm convinced that's not gonna happen. There seems to be 87 steps in this process and no one has gotten to step 87 and as you go along, it gets more difficult to complete a step. That is most likely because they weren't prepared to go the whole way. It's been over 3 years. Planning for D-Day in WWII didn't take this long.

I'd love to have one of these new groups become the owner but I'm not holding my breath.

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04-04-2013, 12:12 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by AP View Post
I don't know what is more sad now in this ownership mess:

The cluster**** itself?
or
The ever growing divide among Coyotes Fans in this mess?
There doesn't have to be a divide. All of us are entitled to our opinion and everyone should respect that. Unfortunately, some fans choose to belittle those who don't agree with them. We can simply agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by AZflyingPuck View Post
It does feel like we have been divided and conquered.

I'm sure we all want the Coyotes to stay, but I'm convinced that's not gonna happen. There seems to be 87 steps in this process and no one has gotten to step 87 and as you go along, it gets more difficult to complete a step. That is most likely because they weren't prepared to go the whole way. It's been over 3 years. Planning for D-Day in WWII didn't take this long.

I'd love to have one of these new groups become the owner but I'm not holding my breath.
All of us are skeptical. We all want the Coyotes to remain but all of us are doubtful that a deal will get done based on history. However, not all of us have ruled out the possibility that a deal could happen. I don't think anyone faults someone for being skeptical. However, there is a difference being skeptical and insulting those who believe there is a chance a deal could happen.


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04-04-2013, 12:16 AM
  #158
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Are you kidding me? No professional league is gate driven certainly not the NFL, NBA, MLB and yes the NHL. The bulk of their revenue comes from television contracts not the gate, concession, merchandising etc.
The NHL TV deal in the USA is $250 million a season over 10 years and before then the tv deals of the past are not even close. Even with this tv deal it is not like in the NFL where their tv deal($2 Billion a season) is enough to cover the expenses of almost every NFL team and still make a profit before ticket sales come into play. Even with this NHL TV Deal and new CBA in place there are still teams that lose money.

No offense here but speaking to you as a friend here I would strongly advise you to do some research before speaking anymore about this. there are plenty of threads here and on the BoH Board going back a few years with lots of details to the real deal over what is has gone on and why we are where we are now and why nobodies word assoicated with mess should ever be trusted.

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04-04-2013, 12:19 AM
  #159
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There doesn't have to be a divide. All of us are entitled to our opinion and everyone should respect. Unfortunately, some fans choose to belittle those who don't agree with them. We can simply agree to disagree.
I don't have a problem with disagreeing opinions but I do have a problem with anyones opinion(regardless if I agree with them or not) based on the accuracy of the infomation given inside of the opinion.

Respect is earned.

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04-04-2013, 12:23 AM
  #160
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I dont buy the gate driven league theory. It's some of the puzzle sure but only minor league organizations rely on that; the majority of money is from corporate sponsorship and TV deals...the second part in corporate money is what the Yotes will never get until an owner is found; to rely on attendance figures in this communication age means your a generation behind.

In a commuter city like this, TV drives all. The deal you get keeps you afloat. ..cough cough like how the Suns were on the main channel tonight during the worst season in its history.

On a rant note, I could see 5, 000 capacity Arenas being built since most fans will be online and not at the games in some of these sports. Chase Field for example was the last of the large stadiums to be built while KC reduced their stadium to around 25k I think.


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04-04-2013, 12:26 AM
  #161
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Holy crap did that argument have a totally different impact when I thought it was xx and sinurgy debating. Haha. Sinurgy or Coyotes needs to change his avatar to something unique. I can't handle having two posters with the same image. Haha.

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04-04-2013, 12:29 AM
  #162
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This isn't difficult to understand. Do you really expect him to provide details regarding how he will close a deal when he doesn't know the terms of the deal? He just received paperwork from the NHL. What part of that did you miss?

Except the difference is none of those investors had the money to purchase the team not even Hulsizer. Pastor is not amassing a group of potential investors to purchase the team. He has the capital right now from his family and personal wealth to purchase the team.
You don't know that. Pastor is a ghost, a nobody. No major public holds, just another nameless banker. Do you believe Jamison or Reinsdorf had the 'money' ? And let's be perfectly honest here, nobody is putting up 100% of the purchase price from their own pocket. Everyone is hovering about, hoping to drink from the public subsidy well. GJ almost pulled off a completely crazy subsidy, and still couldn't close the deal. You sum it up best, though. Parading himself around before he has negotiated a single number. Just what I like to see out of someone hoping to overpay for a severely distressed asset.

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Originally Posted by coyotes View Post
Even if he has the money, he may choose not to purchase the team because he ultimately doesn't see it as a worthwhile investment. Again, he is not buying a car. He is buying a 170 million dollar sports franchise. Anyone with half a brain would understand that no one would provide affirmative answers in an 11 minute interview with local sports radio hosts. That is completely asinine to expect that. Do you really expect him to say "Hey check out my bank account, I'm going to buy the team on Monday" It doesn't work like that in the real world.

I'm being polite. I'm just astonished that anyone would expect a potential investor to disclose precise details when they haven't read the contracts or the paperwork or have had time to deliberate these matters. I think you should focus less on insults and more on what I just said.
The process he has followed so far is exactly how not to do business with the NHL. I don't need to explain that to you. And no one is asking for him to divulge private information, but he did nothing to help himself in that interview. He did not use a single number the entire time. No mention of a lease being worked out with the city, or a purchase price with the NHL. We are less than two months away from having no one pay the bills next year. Think about what you are trying to sell here. A magical investor who is going to purchase the team in cash assets from his personal stash at zero hour without a price or a lease. You bought the "undervalued" line hook, line, and sinker, so that is probably lost on you. The most thought provoking answer he could provide as to how the team will be turned around is "have an owner."

Quote:
Originally Posted by coyotes View Post
I was being nice as well because I assumed I didn't have to spell it out for you. Teams make money from the money dispersed by the league. As the league renegotiates television contracts, that money is dispersed among the owners which adds value to a franchise. It's completely asinine to undermine this fact when valuing an asset like a professional sports franchise. Furthermore, I'm pretty confident Pastor is not an idiot considering his education and success with his company.
The TV contract is small peanuts compared to gate revenue and revenue sharing. Even then, that's not enough to prop up an asset that continues to lose up to thirty million dollars a year. You don't really seem like a numbers guy. Getting around thirty million in losses a year is a lot to ask of any investor. Daly and Bettman candidly admitted as much to each other in emails disclosed during the bankruptcy. We're now 4 years further down the road. The asset has continued to depreciate while the price remains the same. You just don't have a clue what you are talking about if you are trying to sell Pastor's "this is undervalued" angle. There are direct comparables in this situation, and they spell out very clearly the exact opposite of his position. See the Blues sale for an example. You've even got LeBlanc and Reinsdorf only really willing to put $90 million or so into the pot of their own equity, with the rest from gimmick financing. Even then, they wanted outs that would allow them to recoup their money by selling to another market.

If you want to go to bat for this guy, fine. Do it with at least half decent logic, though. And you can't put Hulsizer in the dirt while praising Pastor. They come from identical backgrounds. LeBlanc too, lest I forget. Reinsdorf is actually pretty successful at owning sports franchises (what I consider to be relevant) and wanted nothing to do with the $170 million price tag. Fallacious crap like that might fly in your personal circle but it doesn't past muster when examined with any level of critical thought.

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Are you kidding me? No professional league is gate driven certainly not the NFL, NBA, MLB and yes the NHL. The bulk of their revenue comes from television contracts not the gate, concession, merchandising etc.
As a percentage of revenue, the NHL is very much gate driven when compared to something like the NFL. Do some research, yeah? Some of us have been doing this for years. Post up on the business board if you want to see how thin the ice you stand on really is.

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04-04-2013, 01:32 AM
  #163
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I dont buy the gate driven league theory. It's some of the puzzle sure but only minor league organizations rely on that; the majority of money is from corporate sponsorship and TV deals...the second part in corporate money is what the Yotes will never get until an owner is found; to rely on attendance figures in this communication age means your a generation behind.
The available numbers suggest the NHL is a more gate driven league than the other major US sports. Around 50% of NHL HRR comes from gate receipts--that includes corporate purchase of tickets and suites.

I don't have the exact figures at hand for the other leagues, but I believe the NBA is next in the mid to low 40%'s with MLB and NFL below 40%.

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04-04-2013, 02:50 AM
  #164
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It is easy to be negative and think Pastor will never come through based on the last 4 years. We are all skeptical. Pastor said he has the money, that is easy enough for the NHL or COG to verify before they go too far down a new path. He also said it is an undervalued asset, first time I have heard that, so he likely is not negotiating a 100 mill purchase price. He also said public/private deal, so he still wants a subsidy and the COG will give him one, we will see how much of one.

Obviously, the NHL and the COG still want an NHL team to stay here, so I still think a deal can be worked out with the right buyer (one that has the money). We have already gone through a slew of bottom feeders, so I doubt that is the case with Pastor. Also, signing an NDA and not disclosing details to the fans satisfaction is normal course of business to get a deal done, not unusual...

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04-04-2013, 03:02 AM
  #165
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I hope Pastor finds a way. I really do. But he has given no indication that he is any different from the numerous other people linked to this sale process. His actions could be interpreted as inappropriate in the eyes of the NHL. Not a great way to start. But if he has the money and the balls, I don't care. Get it done. I just don't want this situation to repeat itself a few years from now when Pastor wants out or burns through more capital than he initially thought he would. Not only do you have to overpay for the team, you've got to fund those losses while you attempt to turn it around.

All in all, it's a very unpalatable situation for someone looking to join the NHL owners club. Other teams have gone on sale and been sold in the time this saga has gone on, giving you some indication as to how interested buyers really are. We haven't seen a legitimate face since Reinsdorf, and even he wanted a subsidy + out clause. The situation speaks for itself.

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04-04-2013, 03:52 AM
  #166
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Holy crap did that argument have a totally different impact when I thought it was xx and sinurgy debating. Haha. Sinurgy or Coyotes needs to change his avatar to something unique. I can't handle having two posters with the same image. Haha.
haha yeah not me. I've changed my avatar to avoid further confusion.

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04-04-2013, 04:58 AM
  #167
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There seems to be 87 steps in this process and no one has gotten to step 87 and as you go along, it gets more difficult to complete a step.
someone really needs to make a video game based on this. Call it NHL 2 weeks: the quest for the coyotes. Make it 87 different levels long, and at the end...well, nobody really knows what happens if you reach the last level, because it's never been tried. Maybe Canada explodes, or your screen switches over to a suns game?

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04-04-2013, 07:43 AM
  #168
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I thought Pastor was as open and honest as he could be given the fact that he is in the process of reviewing the financials and will be negotiating a deal. If you expencted him to run down all the details of the purchase, well you're looking for more than any sensible businessman would give in an interview.

I get looking at this as the glass half full but some of you have a huge hole in the bottom of your glass. I think it's safe to say none of us think this is anywhere near a sure thing but the guy seemed genuine and I love the fact that he said his family trust has the money to purchase the team. No group of anonymous investors. Unless he's flat out lying, which I have no idea what he'd hope to gain by pretending to have money to purchase the team, he's way ahead of Jamison and Hulsizer. Continue having fun bashing him and any of us that are hopeful he's for real. I'm going to wait and see whether he belongs with the other pretenders or is someone that can get this done.

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04-04-2013, 11:41 AM
  #169
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I thought Pastor was as open and honest as he could be given the fact that he is in the process of reviewing the financials and will be negotiating a deal. If you expencted him to run down all the details of the purchase, well you're looking for more than any sensible businessman would give in an interview.

I get looking at this as the glass half full but some of you have a huge hole in the bottom of your glass. I think it's safe to say none of us think this is anywhere near a sure thing but the guy seemed genuine and I love the fact that he said his family trust has the money to purchase the team. No group of anonymous investors. Unless he's flat out lying, which I have no idea what he'd hope to gain by pretending to have money to purchase the team, he's way ahead of Jamison and Hulsizer. Continue having fun bashing him and any of us that are hopeful he's for real. I'm going to wait and see whether he belongs with the other pretenders or is someone that can get this done.
Agreed...Enough guys have tried to buy the coyotes with "mirrors", I doubt he is going down that path. Time will tell and he has done 6 months of due diligence....

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04-04-2013, 12:00 PM
  #170
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Interdasting

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04-04-2013, 01:43 PM
  #171
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Interdasting
This is no time to start coining words and phrases!

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04-04-2013, 01:50 PM
  #172
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I wish we hurry and tank the rest if the season and move so I can get on with it!

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04-04-2013, 03:43 PM
  #173
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I wish we hurry and tank the rest if the season and move so I can get on with it!
I disagree, I hope they go on a tear, make the playoffs, do some damage and make things as difficult as possible on all parties involved.

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04-04-2013, 04:30 PM
  #174
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and we keep getting closer to one more year:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/ke...-could-drag-on

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04-04-2013, 10:22 PM
  #175
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"@cmorgancbsfoxaz: Ownership tidbit: #Coyotes prospective buyer George Gosbee is at the game tonight. He declined public comment on his group's bid to buy team"

"@cmorgancbsfoxaz: As a reminder: Per a source, the Gosbee/LeBlanc group expected to have its proposal to the NHL this week."


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