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Gretzky, Lemieux and Crosby comparables

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Old
04-03-2013, 10:36 PM
  #51
livewell68
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
I was afraid you'd say Robitaille. Ovechkin is a 2 time MVP, 3 time Lindsay winning, Richard hogging bodyblasting era-defining force of nature. I don't care what he does from now on (thankfully it looks like he's finding himself again), he's already left Luc is his rear-view mirror, even if he retires with less points or 40 goal seasons or whatever comparitively useless statistical feats Luc has on him. Great player, but Ovechkin dominated on another level.

I was hoping you'd mention Ted Lindsay... I'd still disagree but it would make more sense, he's a better comparison
Did Ovechkin have to contend with Gretzky, Lemieux and later Jagr in their primes?

I'm not knocking Ovechkin by any means but Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos and the Sedins have benefited from the fact they did not have to contend with 3 of the 5 best offensive players of all-time to win any of those Art Ross, Hart/ Lindsay awards.

That said, Ovechkin has been a more impacting player than Robitaille ever was. Ovechkin's first 5 seasons in the NHL were some of the most dominant offensive hockey a player has ever played outside of your usual suspects; Howe, Orr, Lemieux, Bossy, Gretzky, Esposito, Hull, Lindros, Beliveau, Lafleur and Jagr.

At the end of the day, by getting back to Crosby, I think unless he wins a few more Art Ross trophies and or Hart trophies in his career, he is going to fall in the Sakic, Yzerman, Forsberg tier when it comes to centermen and overall players on the all-time list.


Last edited by livewell68: 04-03-2013 at 10:42 PM.
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04-03-2013, 10:39 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
More objectivity and less emotion in the evaluation of players please.
I don't see why I'm not being objective, I love both of these guys. What's your retort? Why do you think Robitaille ranks ahead of Ovechkin?

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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post

Just ask Big Phil, he will tell you that he thinks Malkin's season last year was the closest a player has come to dominating games the way Jagr did in his prime.
=.
Phil's a smart guy, but I've been around the Pens board and nobody there is going to put Malkin ahead of Crosby because he has more Art Rosses. They're a better and more objective gauge for this kind of thing. They know Crosby is the best, they're not going to go count trophies.

Ovechkin was neck and neck for a bit, but I think you'll be in a minority if you don't think Crosby has proven to be better

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04-03-2013, 10:44 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Did Ovechkin have to contend with Gretzky, Lemieux and later Jagr in their primes?


.
Take away all those guys and Robitaille still doesn't get a sniff of the MVP or scoring title or anything of significance to put him with what Ovechkin achieved. You'd have to take away a LOT more guys than that for Robitaille to ever be considered the best in the game, or even just give him ONE Richard.

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04-03-2013, 10:52 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
I don't see why I'm not being objective, I love both of these guys. What's your retort? Why do you think Robitaille ranks ahead of Ovechkin?
That is emotional not objective >>>>>

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Ovechkin is a 2 time MVP, 3 time Lindsay winning, Richard hogging bodyblasting era-defining force of nature.

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04-03-2013, 10:54 PM
  #55
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That is emotional not objective >>>>>
It's just colorful language and oratory. I'm not emotional at all, just rhyming off objective achievements that Robitaille objectively can not match.

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04-03-2013, 10:54 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Why do you think Robitaille ranks ahead of Ovechkin?
Ovechkin doesn't have enough elite seasons to be be considered an ATG player. Robitaille does.

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04-03-2013, 10:55 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post

Ovechkin was neck and neck for a bit, but I think you'll be in a minority if you don't think Crosby has proven to be better
In Crosby's 99 out of 201 games since they were about even?
Because he has a Cup that required Malkin stepping huge and above Crosby, up to get?
Because he scored the "Golden Goal" after being the most invisible "Best player in the world" in an Olympic's/Canada Cup I have ever seen?

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04-03-2013, 11:00 PM
  #58
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In Crosby's 99 out of 201 games since they were about even?
Because he has a Cup that required Malkin stepping huge up to get?
Because he scored the "Golden Goal" after being the most invisible "Best player in the world" in an Olympic's/Canada Cup I have ever seen?
They were very close before and Crosby's clearly the far superior player now. But I know you're so hung up on the injuries you will never concede this until you see him play X amount of games, while most seem to have already done so.

Crosby is superior to Ovechkin in the playoffs and has by far the best playoff PPG, far better than his and Malkin's and anyone else's (and you can't bring up the small sample size here, Crosby's body of work in the post-season is large and substantial). Being outplayed by Malkin one year changes nothing, Crosby has outplayed him every other year and his overall body of work there is the best.

I don't give half a crap about the Olympics and never cite the golden goal as anything big, but Crosby's "choking" is ridiculously overstated and used against him here. One of the lamer slights against him.

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04-03-2013, 11:15 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Ovechkin doesn't have enough elite seasons to be be considered an ATG player. Robitaille does.
Give me achievement and greatness over compiling good seasons (and a couple of great but not top-tier ones) for a long time. Ovechkin has already put together a more impressive list of truly HOF-worthy seasons. An ATG that's already a lock for the HOF

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04-03-2013, 11:17 PM
  #60
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Gretzky and Lemieux don't have comparables, and Crosby should end up with Yzerman-like numbers throughout his career.

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04-03-2013, 11:24 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Give me achievement and greatness over compiling good seasons (and a couple of great but not top-tier ones) for a long time. Ovechkin has already put together a more impressive list of truly HOF-worthy seasons. An ATG that's already a lock for the HOF
When Ovi gets to Jari Kuri's level as a player (assuming he ever does) then you can talk ATG. Until then I'll pass on the propaganda and emotional hyperbole.

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04-03-2013, 11:29 PM
  #62
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It's actually 99 games spread over 3 seasons mind you. History has always proven even in Gretzky and Lemieux' cases that the more you play, the more likely your PPG goes down.

Since I know so much about Jagr and pretty much know his stats by heart, I like to use him to prove my point here.

In 1999-00, in his first 39 games Jagr had 71 Pts (1.82 PPG) or 150 Pts over 82 games which would have even surpassed his own personal best of 149 Pts all while playing with Hrdina and Beranek as linemates. Injuries derailed his season and when he came back, he was slowed down and scored 25 Pts in his last 24 games. His PPG dropped 0.30 percentage points which is a 25 Pts difference over 82 games. Before you people also claim that Jagr is a notoriously slow finisher, please have a look at the fact that in 1998-99 and 2000-01 his second half numbers are better than Crosby's first half numbers in 2010-11.

All players are bound to hit slumps, injuries, run into hot goaltenders and or hot streaks during the course of a full 82 game season. Crosby's actual in game numbers have not taken a hit over the last 3 seasons due to the fact that we haven't seen him even hit a mini slump.

Heck even the best players of all-time have hit mini slumps by their own standards.

Crosby has yet to prove to me or anyone else that his most recent 1.60 PPG clip (over the last 99 games spread over 3 seasons) is his actual new level of play or is it rather just an anomaly in a career that is more on the level of 1.35 PPG (nothing to scoff at but not this "legendary" level that some of you are trying to sell)?

What he was doing this year was very good but it was in a short season and this is the very same reason why Jagr's 70 Pts in 48 games during the last lockout shortened season isn't looked upon as highly as the rest of his Art Ross winning seasons and 1995-96 and 2005-06 seasons.
I didn't remember it that way so I looked it up, Branak played in exactly 13 games and Hrdina was on the ice for a total of 63 GF, 51 at ES.

Jagr on the other hand was on the ice for 118 GF, 80 at ES.

So most likely Jagrs line mates were guys like Lang and perhaps Kovalev, slightly better players than the 2 guys you mentioned.

Sid has been 22-25 in his last 3 years so it's not like we are seeing him rack up easy points in his declining years either.

Like I mentioned in a different post Sid get far less % offensives zone starts than Malkin and he simply looks like the best player in the world in many games he has played in his last 3 years, and for his career for that matter.

Some people seem to have an agenda to downgrade him at every turn, not sure why.

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04-03-2013, 11:33 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
When Ovi gets to Jari Kuri's level as a player (assuming he ever does) then you can talk ATG. Until then I'll pass on the propaganda and emotional hyperbole.
Jari Kurri isn't the baseline for being an ATG player. If Kurri is the objective, than Robitaille isn't an ATG, because Kurri is much better than him.

And Ovechkin is better than Kurri, though maybe I should have mumbled that part under my breath or you'll think I'm being all "emotional" again

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04-03-2013, 11:37 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Jari Kurri isn't the baseline for being an ATG player. If Kurri is the objective, than Robitaille isn't an ATG, because Kurri is much better than him.

And Ovechkin is better than Kurri, though maybe I should have mumbled that part under my breath or you'll think I'm being all "emotional" again
Sorry, but Ovi is NOT better than Kurri.

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04-03-2013, 11:39 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Ovechkin doesn't have enough elite seasons to be be considered an ATG player. Robitaille does.
Are you being serious?

Roitaille was never in the mix for the top 10 players in the world ever, nevermind AO for top 3 even 1st for a period of time.

I guess Luc had more playoff points than AO so he is a better playoff performer as well?

While we are talking about Luc, his best goal finishes were 4th, 2 times and a 6 and 2 7th place finishes.

AO has never finished lower than 5th in goals in his NHL career.

Put up a poll, very few people are taking Luc over AO.

I mean some will but some people will believe anything.

AO as a comparable is Bobby Hull and he might even top him as a goal scorer if he gets back his elite edge.

As it is having a 5th place finish as your worst season ever (he is on pace to be top 5 this year quite easily again) over 8 years simply is ATG period.

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04-03-2013, 11:43 PM
  #66
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Sorry, but Ovi is NOT better than Kurri.
What exactly makes Kurri a better ATP than AO other than the length of his career?

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04-03-2013, 11:46 PM
  #67
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Sorry, but Ovi is NOT better than Kurri.
You can roughly apply my argument for Ovechkin over Robitaille here, but Kurri is much closer, mostly because of his defensive-acumen and playoff resume. But he still was never good enough to be able to achieve the individually dominant heights Ovechkin did, with or without Gretzky. I think you sadly undervalue what Ovechkin did when he was winning all those MVPs, what he did puts him in an exclusive club that contains only the best of the best, guys that are better than Kurri or Robitaille.

Kurri even had pretty underwhelming longevity, dropping off fast. I think if there's still anyone who thinks Kurri is better than Ovechkin, it won't be for long now with Ovi looking rejuvenated.

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04-03-2013, 11:47 PM
  #68
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What exactly makes Kurri a better ATP than AO other than the length of his career?
A ten season run where he averaged over 100 points a year.....oh, and he was better defensively than Ovi (knowing your fetish for "two-way" players).

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04-03-2013, 11:49 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
You can roughly apply my argument for Ovechkin over Robitaille here, but Kurri is much closer, mostly because of his defensive-acumen and playoff resume. But he still was never good enough to be able to achieve the individually dominant heights Ovechkin did, with or without Gretzky. I think you sadly undervalue what Ovechkin did when he was winning all those MVPs, what he did puts him in an exclusive club that contains only the best of the best, guys that are better than Kurri or Robitaille.

Kurri even had pretty underwhelming longevity, dropping off fast. I think if there's still anyone who thinks Kurri is better than Ovechkin, it won't be for long now.
Huh? We've just watched Ovi pout his way through two seasons of mediocre play in his prime. Now THAT'S a fast drop off.

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04-03-2013, 11:52 PM
  #70
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Gretzky and Lemieux don't have comparables, and Crosby should end up with Yzerman-like numbers throughout his career.
do you mean raw stats or PPG or how he places in the list of scorers year in or year out?

Steve had some pretty good raw stats but only showed up in the top 10 in scoring 6 times. I would have thought it was more it surprised me.

even his raw stats can be a bit misleading as it was easier to score goals for most of the time Steve enjoyed his offensive peak.

I haven't seen any metric, other than perhaps raw stats, to suggest that Steve had a better 1st 8 years than Sid has had.

In fact the only thing holding Sid out of the Wayne and Mario stratosphere in each players 1st 8 years (ie one of the best 5 first 8 year performances ever) is injuries and more competition from non traditional Canadian sources of talent for top 5,10 finishes ect...

Man even with the injuries Sid's first 8 years still probably makes the top 10 of all time.

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04-03-2013, 11:55 PM
  #71
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Huh? We've just watched Ovi pout his way through two seasons of mediocre play in his prime. Now THAT'S a fast drop off.
The funny thing is, Ovechkin was 7th in scoring during his first "mediocre" season, and 5th in goals during his second. And now he's a top 10 scorer again this season.

7th in the league is considered mediocre by Ovechkin's standards. I think says a lot about the standard of greatness he set for himself. After this season, he'll already have the same amount of elite top-10 seasons that Kurri had, and I like his chances of adding more to it.

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04-04-2013, 12:08 AM
  #72
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A ten season run where he averaged over 100 points a year.....oh, and he was better defensively than Ovi (knowing your fetish for "two-way" players).
Kurri was better defensively there is no doubt of that but really averaging over 100 pints a year in the 80's?

Playing most of that time with Wayne?

How does Jari stack up in adjusted goals and points?

How about as a % of the 2nd best in goals and points each season (Lord's method).

Pretty sure that if you put it in context then the case for Jari becomes a lot more difficult (other than career at this point).

AO leads the next best goal scorer in his first 8 seasons in the league by 51 goals (another Russian incidentally) 359-308.

The top 5 are rounded out by

Heatley 279
Iggy 276
Eric Stall 255

AO is also 1st in points over that time.

Kurri is 3rd in his first 8 seasons and stands like this

Gretzky 532
Bossy 400
Kurri 397
Goulet 392
Dionne 344

Kurri is 4th in points

Given the advantage of playing with Wayne, it's doubtful that his defesne makes up for the large margin of victory that aO has in this reguard.

Furthermore, Makarov is considered by most the best RW of the 80's not Kurri and he wasn't in the NHL then.

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04-04-2013, 12:58 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
I don't give half a crap about the Olympics and never cite the golden goal as anything big, but Crosby's "choking" is ridiculously overstated and used against him here. One of the lamer slights against him.
Really?
You honestly think that a thread titled "Gretzky, Lemieux and Crosby comparables" is not at some point going to address their respective play on the world stage vs the best of the best of the best?

Or were the people propping Crosby up just going to hope it went untouched?

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04-04-2013, 01:21 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I didn't remember it that way so I looked it up, Branak played in exactly 13 games and Hrdina was on the ice for a total of 63 GF, 51 at ES.

Jagr on the other hand was on the ice for 118 GF, 80 at ES.

So most likely Jagrs line mates were guys like Lang and perhaps Kovalev, slightly better players than the 2 guys you mentioned.
Jagr's linemates (in order of their involvement in his ES points) were:

Miller, Straka, Hrdina, and Lang in '99

Hrdina, Straka, Lang, and Titov in '00

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04-04-2013, 05:21 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I didn't remember it that way so I looked it up, Branak played in exactly 13 games and Hrdina was on the ice for a total of 63 GF, 51 at ES.

Jagr on the other hand was on the ice for 118 GF, 80 at ES.

So most likely Jagrs line mates were guys like Lang and perhaps Kovalev, slightly better players than the 2 guys you mentioned.

Sid has been 22-25 in his last 3 years so it's not like we are seeing him rack up easy points in his declining years either.

Like I mentioned in a different post Sid get far less % offensives zone starts than Malkin and he simply looks like the best player in the world in many games he has played in his last 3 years, and for his career for that matter.

Some people seem to have an agenda to downgrade him at every turn, not sure why.
Jagr most definitely never spent a substantial amount of time with Kovalev at even strength. For one thing, they both played right wing. For another, it wouldn't have been a match as both required a lot of touches to be effective.

Czech Your Math's list looks more correct to my memory.

But I agree with the general sentiment of this thread that Crosby/Jagr is, at this point, probably a more worthwhile comparison to make than Crosby Gretzky. Just in terms of separation from his (non-lemieux) peers, Crosby and Jagrs per game production looks one Hell of a lot more similar than Crosby's and Gretzky's.

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