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Old
04-03-2013, 08:10 PM
  #26
palindrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Because if Gillis was dead set on Couturier for Schneider(Which was rumoured to be what Ottawa was asking from Philly), or someone that most teams were simply unwilling to move, then that would end any traction. I assume trading Schneider is a worst case scenario in management's eyes, so it would take a pretty penny for them to trade him.
also, Luongo being avaible could be a reason why teams aren't willing to pay the asking price for Schneider.

Why pay a fortune for Schneider, when we can have Luongo for less? (alternatively, if Vancouver reply that the asking Price for Luongo is actually higher, then why pay for Luongo, when we can have Schneider for less?).

So my question is what is the value of Schneider versus the value Luongo ?

Well, maybe i should bump my thread about Vancouver keeping both goalie until Schneider become UFA summer 2015. This option became a bit closer to be a possibility today.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-03-2013 at 08:33 PM.
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04-03-2013, 09:36 PM
  #27
detredWINgs
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
it doesnt work.

Vancouver cant buys out Luongo after trading him to Florida. They need to buys him out while is is still under contract with Vancouver.
Then they cant trade him, because he is no longer with Vancouver.

They need to Buy him out first, and if it happen, i doubt Luongo would sign a new contract with Vancouver just to allow them to get some value out of a trade.

Why didnt Vancouver sign Sutter and Parise last summer then trade them to Minesota? Isnt it a loophole in the CBA?

Why didnt Gomez sign with Montreal after they bought him out, so they can trade Gomez to SJ?

You're completely misunderstanding the premise.

Vancouver allows Florida (which, again, is just an example) to speak with Luongo in order to see if they can come to an agreement as though Luongo were an impending free agent when in fact, he is still under contract with Vancouver.

Florida and Luongo come to a handshake agreement (i.e. an informal agreement) wherein Luongo agrees to sign with Florida to the agreed upon contract if/when Vancouver buys him out.

Gillis is then informed of the potential agreement and thereafter Florida would trade X assets to Vancouver for, formally, "future considerations," when in practice, Florida is actually trading X assets to Vancouver in exchange for Vancouver agreeing to buy out Luongo.

After Vancouver receives X assets from Florida, they buy out Luongo, and Luongo then promptly signs with Florida to the agreed upon deal.

Conceptually, it is akin to trading picks for negotiating rights, a la Ehrhoff, Wisniewski, etc, except that Vancouver has more leverage in that, if they don't get a reasonable return, they don't have to buy out Luongo.

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04-03-2013, 09:41 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
You're completely misunderstanding the premise.

Vancouver allows Florida (which, again, is just an example) to speak with Luongo in order to see if they can come to an agreement as though Luongo were an impending free agent when in fact, he is still under contract with Vancouver.

Florida and Luongo come to a handshake agreement (i.e. an informal agreement) wherein Luongo agrees to sign with Florida to the agreed upon contract if/when Vancouver buys him out.

Gillis is then informed of the potential agreement and thereafter Florida would trade X assets to Vancouver for, formally, "future considerations," when in practice, Florida is actually trading X assets to Vancouver in exchange for Vancouver agreeing to buy out Luongo.

After Vancouver receives X assets from Florida, they buy out Luongo, and Luongo then promptly signs with Florida to the agreed upon deal.

Conceptually, it is akin to trading picks for negotiating rights, a la Ehrhoff, Wisniewski, etc, except that Vancouver has more leverage in that, if they don't get a reasonable return, they don't have to buy out Luongo.
I like it,

After getting Florida's asset for future consideration, Vancouver could then just decide to not buy out Luongo and get Tallon fired.
Gillis would look like a genius. and no harm done to his reputation since it was just "informal" and Tallon would be fired.

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04-03-2013, 09:45 PM
  #29
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Given Philly's track record with goalies, Couturier for Schneider (as the main ingredients) would seem like a godsend of a deal for the Flyers. I thought at one point today New Jersey was interested, too. Schneider should fetch a lot.

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04-03-2013, 09:47 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
I like it,

After getting Florida's asset for future consideration, Vancouver could then just decide to not buy out Luongo and get Tallon fired.
Gillis would look like a genius. and no harm done to his reputation since it was just "informal" and Tallon would be fired.
We can't afford both Luongo and Schneider going into next season. Luongo can simply refuse to waive his NTC to any team, forcing Gillis to buy him out.

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04-03-2013, 09:50 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
We can't afford both Luongo and Schneider going into next season. Luongo can simply refuse to waive his NTC to any team, forcing Gillis to buy him out.
is it a NTC or a NMC?

he would be waived before being bought out.

And i think before getting Luongo waived, Vancouver would try to trade Schneider.

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04-03-2013, 10:09 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Anyone know the details about the compliance buyouts and potential loopholes? Would it be possible for Gillis to let Luongo speak to other teams that he'd be willing to play for were he bought out?

Let's use Florida as an example:
Luongo makes a handshake agreement with Florida as though he were a free agent, agreeing to a 4 year, 20 million deal (no idea if thats accurate). Florida then offers, say, Scott Clemenson, a 1st round pick, and a prospect (again, no idea what his value would be) to Vancouver. Vancouver agrees. Vancouver then buys out Luongo, and he signs his deal with Florida.
This is a good example of what could happen.

What they would do is a lopsided trade that appears in Vancouver's favor.

Something like:

To FL: 1st round pick + $$$+ future considerations
TO VAN: Clemenson + 2nd round pick + good player.

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04-03-2013, 10:12 PM
  #33
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Schneider for Hedman. Then the Canucks flip Edler to a team like Philly who needs help on D for a couple of young forwards.

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04-03-2013, 10:14 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
Schneider for Hedman. Then the Canucks flip Edler to a team like Philly who needs help on D for a couple of young forwards.
You completely undervalue Schneider and Edler, i am happy than Gillis is our GM and not you.

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04-03-2013, 10:14 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
it doesnt work.

Vancouver cant buys out Luongo after trading him to Florida. They need to buys him out while is is still under contract with Vancouver.
Then they cant trade him, because he is no longer with Vancouver.

You are missing what he suggested.

FIRST: A player CAN NOT Re-sign with the same team that gave him a compliance buyout for one season.

A side deal is set up.

1. Luongo agrees if he is given a compliance buy out he will sign with Florida. He negotiates this before trade is made.

1. Florida does a lopsided trade to vancouver such as goalie + 1st for $$ and future considerations.

3. Vancouver releases Luongo

4. Luongo signs with Florida

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04-03-2013, 11:07 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Djp View Post
You are missing what he suggested.

FIRST: A player CAN NOT Re-sign with the same team that gave him a compliance buyout for one season.

A side deal is set up.

1. Luongo agrees if he is given a compliance buy out he will sign with Florida. He negotiates this before trade is made.

1. Florida does a lopsided trade to vancouver such as goalie + 1st for $$ and future considerations.

3. Vancouver releases Luongo

4. Luongo signs with Florida
But what if Vancouver doesn't do the step 3 ? Nothing force them to do so, and they have all the good reason to not do it.

They got a lopsided deal, everything is according to the rules, Talon get fired and Gillis will look like a genius. Florida cant do anything about it since it was informal.

It will only be a lesson for future GM to be not as stupid as Talon was in this deal. Of course Talon would hate Gillis forever, but who care? Talon would probably never be a GM again after showing how stupid he was in this deal.

here is how it should work...

1. Luongo agrees if he is given a compliance buy out he will sign with Florida. He negotiates this before trade is made.

2. Vancouver releases Luongo

3. Luongo signs with Florida

4. Florida does a lopsided trade to vancouver such as goalie + 1st for $$ and future considerations.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-03-2013 at 11:12 PM.
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04-03-2013, 11:12 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
But what if Vancouver doesn't do the step 3 ?

They got a lopsided deal, everything is according to the rules, Talon get fired and Gillis will look like a genius. Florida cant do anything about it since it was informal.

It will only be a lesson for future GM to be not as stupid as Talon was in this deal.

I'm pretty sure if Gillis renegs on the agreement, Tallon would be on the horn to all other GM's and Gillis would have no trading partners.. ever. It would do a lot more damage to Gillis' reputation

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04-03-2013, 11:15 PM
  #38
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This sort of thing has happened before

I remember way back when, Vancouver picked up Geoff Sanderson at the deadline, the deal was that Vancouver waives Sanderson after the playoffs and Columbus reclaims him

I think it was Columbus, anyways, that worked out exactly as planned, Vancouver got Sanderson for cheap at the deadline for their cup run, after the season ended, Sanderson was waived, and Columbus picked him back up

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04-03-2013, 11:15 PM
  #39
palindrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
I'm pretty sure if Gillis renegs on the agreement, Tallon would be on the horn to all other GM's and Gillis would have no trading partners.. ever. It would do a lot more damage to Gillis' reputation
i think its the opposite, Talon would lose his reputation and Gillis would look like a genius.


Its would not be like Talon wasn't trying to to find a loopholes by circumventing the rules and get his ass kicked for it


Wake up, there are no GM association protecting their victim. Its everyone for themselves. If any GM would refuse to make a deal with Gillis in the future, they would just hurt themselves as much as Gillis. Especially since they would allow other GM to get better deal from Gillis because they remove themselves from making competing offer.

What about this instead:


1. Luongo agrees if he is given a compliance buy out he will sign with Florida. He negotiates this before trade is made.

2. Vancouver releases Luongo

3. Luongo signs with Florida

4. Florida does a lopsided trade to vancouver such as goalie + 1st for $$ and future considerations.

Of course nothing force Florida to do the step 4 and nothing force Luongo to sign with Florida.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-03-2013 at 11:24 PM.
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04-03-2013, 11:24 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
i think its the opposite, Talon would lose his reputation and Gillis would look like a genius.


Its would not be like Talon wasn't trying to to find a loopholes by circumventing the rules and get his ass kicked for it


What about this instead:


1. Luongo agrees if he is given a compliance buy out he will sign with Florida. He negotiates this before trade is made.

2. Vancouver releases Luongo

3. Luongo signs with Florida

4. Florida does a lopsided trade to vancouver such as goalie + 1st for $$ and future considerations.

Of course nothing force Florida to do the step 4 and nothing force Luongo to sign with Florida.
I'm not sure why you're under the impression that GM's don't honor their word with other GM's.

I mean if you really want it to be safe for both sides it could look like this

1) Florida trades Nick Bjudstad to Vancouver for Future considerations. (In reality this is for Florida to negotiate with Luongo). Condition #1. If Luongo agrees to deal with Florida, Vancouver trades back Bjudstad to Florida for 1st, and $$ and Futures. Condition #2. If Luongo does not agree to deal with Florida, Vancouver trades back Bjudstad for 7th rounder.

2) Play it out as indicated by the 2 conditions that made the Bjudstad trade valid in the first place.

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04-03-2013, 11:30 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by nuckfan insk View Post
i doubt nonis turned down scrivens and picks.
hope to see them crash and burn cause of it

im all for moving schneider
I don't doubt it. I like Lu, but if you listen to Nonis' interviews it seems like he was looking for a vet mentor for Reimer and Scrivens, not to get a starter.

I hope Luongo gets a starting role somewhere and I felt for him in that interview (partially because of stupid questions). I just don't think it makes sense in Toronto anymore because I think they are looking at their own young goalies as the future and both have played well thus far.

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Originally Posted by SiCKNESS View Post
same here, I wouldnt mind Luongo being a Canuck for life. Could get alot from FLA, TOR, PHI, NYI..
I don't think Toronto or Florida would be in on that to be honest because of the recent play of Reimer and Markstrom. Not saying Schneider wouldn't be an upgrade but at this point it doesn't make sense.

Philly or the Islanders I could see for sure. It actually wouldn't surprise me to see Philly go for Luongo this offseason and buyout Bryzgalov. It seems like one of those crazy deals that just might work out that Holmgren likes to do.

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04-03-2013, 11:31 PM
  #42
palindrom
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
I'm not sure why you're under the impression that GM's don't honor their word with other GM's.

I mean if you really want it to be safe for both sides it could look like this

1) Florida trades Nick Bjudstad to Vancouver for Future considerations. (In reality this is for Florida to negotiate with Luongo). Condition #1. If Luongo agrees to deal with Florida, Vancouver trades back Bjudstad to Florida for 1st, and $$ and Futures. Condition #2. If Luongo does not agree to deal with Florida, Vancouver trades back Bjudstad for 7th rounder.

2) Play it out as indicated by the 2 conditions that made the Bjudstad trade valid in the first place.
This is not safer as this is not formal.

You cant trade 'the right to negotiate with a player' you always trade the player and the right to negotiate with him come along.

And in your Scenario, what if Luongo does not agree to deal with Florida? Vancouver trades back Bjudstad for 7th rounder, Then Luongo sign elsewhere? (since he is been bought out).

I think this is all wishful thinking, wanting the most for Luongo but would not happen in real.

Also, if Luongo wants to go to Florida, he will not do any favor to Vancouver so they can get more value from him, so Florida will be a weaker team in front of Luongo.

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04-03-2013, 11:35 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
This is not safer as this is not formal.

You cant trade 'the right to negotiate with a player' you always trade the player and the right to negotiate with him come along.

And in your Scenario, what if Luongo does not agree to deal with Florida? Vancouver trades back Bjudstad for 7th rounder, Then Luongo sign elsewhere? (since he is been bought out)
You can trade for player's rights. It's how Leetch was a Maple Leaf, or Adam Graves was a Shark.

If Luongo doesn't agree to a deal with Florida, he doesn't get bought out. So he's still a Canuck.

He only gets bought out if he agrees to a deal with Florida.

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04-03-2013, 11:37 PM
  #44
palindrom
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
You can trade for player's rights. It's how Leetch was a Maple Leaf, or Adam Graves was a Shark.

If Luongo doesn't agree to a deal with Florida, he doesn't get bought out. So he's still a Canuck.

He only gets bought out if he agrees to a deal with Florida.
You can trade for player's rights ? Of course, it happen everytime you trade for a player.

The only difference between acquiring a player's right and a player is if they have remaining game to play until they become UFA, but technically its exactly the same, you acquire the player and the right come along.

Quote:
Leetch was traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs just prior to the trade deadline for prospects Maxim Kondratiev, Jarkko Immonen, a first-round pick in the 2004 draft, which became Lauri Korpikoski, and a second-round pick in 2005, which became Michael Sauer.
Quote:
After winning the Bill Masterton Trophy in 2001, Graves was traded to the San Jose Sharks for Mikael Samuelsson.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-03-2013 at 11:46 PM.
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04-03-2013, 11:38 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
I'm not sure why you're under the impression that GM's don't honor their word with other GM's.

I mean if you really want it to be safe for both sides it could look like this

1) Florida trades Nick Bjudstad to Vancouver for Future considerations. (In reality this is for Florida to negotiate with Luongo). Condition #1. If Luongo agrees to deal with Florida, Vancouver trades back Bjudstad to Florida for 1st, and $$ and Futures. Condition #2. If Luongo does not agree to deal with Florida, Vancouver trades back Bjudstad for 7th rounder.

2) Play it out as indicated by the 2 conditions that made the Bjudstad trade valid in the first place.
Exactly.

In the alternate, Vancouver and Florida (or Toronto, etc.) could just get an escrow agent for the documents that complete the deal. If one GM acts in bad faith, the documents are shredded and the deal is off. If the GMs both act in accordance with the deal, the escrow agent passes the documents through to the other team's GM and the deals are consummated.

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04-03-2013, 11:42 PM
  #46
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I'm not sure how much clearer I can be in explaining this, but I'll take one more stab at it.

Florida trades Nick Bjugstad to Vancouver for Futures/Permission to speak with Luongo. This is allowed as evidence by Toronto obtaining permission to speak with Kripprusoff. The Trade for Futures is obviously just a front.

There are 2 clauses attached to the Nick Bjugstad for Futures trade.

Clause 1. If Vancouver Buys out Luongo, Vancouver must trade Bjugstad back to Florida for a goalie, 1st round pick, cash and futures

Clause 2. If Vancouver does not buy out Luongo, Vancouver must trade Bjudgstad back to Florida for a 7th round pick (essentially, compenstation for speaking with Luongo while under contract with the Canucks)

Luongo and Florida now talk and discuss a potential deal for a contract.

If Luongo accepts a Deal with Florida, bound by Clause 1, Vancouver must trade Bjugstad back to Florida for the package.

If Luongo does not accept a deal with Florida, bound by Clause 2, Vancouver must trade Bjugstad back to Florida for a 7th and Vancouver still has Luongo.

What's the problem here?

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04-03-2013, 11:43 PM
  #47
detredWINgs
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
You can trade for player's rights ? Of course, it happen everytime you trade for a player.
If you trade for a player, that player then has a contract with you.

If you trade for a player's [negotiating] rights, that player does not have a contract with you, but has the opportunity to sign a contract with you and no one else for a period of time.

And technically, you don't trade players themselves. You assign (i.e. trade) a player's contract to a new team.

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04-03-2013, 11:51 PM
  #48
palindrom
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
If you trade for a player, that player then has a contract with you.

If you trade for a player's [negotiating] rights, that player does not have a contract with you, but has the opportunity to sign a contract with you and no one else for a period of time.

And technically, you don't trade players themselves. You assign (i.e. trade) a player's contract to a new team.
So when was the last time a team acquired a the negotiating right of a player who wasn't an upcoming UFA?

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04-03-2013, 11:53 PM
  #49
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So when was the last time a team acquired a the negotiating right of a player who wasn't an upcoming UFA?
Well, when was the last time there was an off-season under the current CBA?

But really, calling this a trade for negotiating rights is a mischaracterization. I only said it was "conceptually akin" to trading a player's negotiating rights.

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04-03-2013, 11:54 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
I'm not sure how much clearer I can be in explaining this, but I'll take one more stab at it.

Florida trades Nick Bjugstad to Vancouver for Futures/Permission to speak with Luongo. This is allowed as evidence by Toronto obtaining permission to speak with Kripprusoff. The Trade for Futures is obviously just a front.

There are 2 clauses attached to the Nick Bjugstad for Futures trade.

Clause 1. If Vancouver Buys out Luongo, Vancouver must trade Bjugstad back to Florida for a goalie, 1st round pick, cash and futures

Clause 2. If Vancouver does not buy out Luongo, Vancouver must trade Bjudgstad back to Florida for a 7th round pick (essentially, compenstation for speaking with Luongo while under contract with the Canucks)

Luongo and Florida now talk and discuss a potential deal for a contract.

If Luongo accepts a Deal with Florida, bound by Clause 1, Vancouver must trade Bjugstad back to Florida for the package.

If Luongo does not accept a deal with Florida, bound by Clause 2, Vancouver must trade Bjugstad back to Florida for a 7th and Vancouver still has Luongo.

What's the problem here?
Vancouver buy out Luongo and for whatever reason (injury? change of mind?) Florida and Luongo doesnt come to an agreement after the buyout.

also the buyout is gonna cost 27 000 000$, i dont know how many team, if they could, would pay that much just to get a better return for Luongo, is Vancouver among them?


Last edited by palindrom: 04-04-2013 at 12:08 AM.
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