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All Encompassing Tortorella Thread Pt. II

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Old
04-04-2013, 06:55 PM
  #826
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
This ^, and let us remember, that getting more breaks than not, even though we advanced deep last year, we were too beat up and too exhausted to finish the job. That's honest reality.

Now, if you could say that was because of lack of conditioning or something, that would be one thing. Rangers were in excellent condition last year. So if it is not the physical condition(ing) of the players, what is to blame for that result? Answer: the Torts system.

This is on top of the fact that there is too much excessive shot blocking = too much injury. Guys play, even if they play hurt = they play subpar.

We need a better system.
The old Rangers, Ratelle, Park, Giacomin, Villemure, etc were a joy to watch, and were more than competitive most nights. Woulda won coupla cups if not for Orr.

Rangers have world class netminder. Solid top 4 d. varying degrees of ability on F. Need a more aggressive offense based system, keeps puck out of our end, in opposition zone more, rely on individual excellence of Staal/Hank etc, to cover those percentage gambles. Keep up the pressure. Till opposition cracks.
I think the answer is that only one team can win and at the point of the conference finals, its a game of bounces and luck to a degree. You don't need a total strategy change every time you fail to win the cup. 100+ points and game 6 in the ECF is a great finish. If a team does that with anything like consistency, they'll get the bounces eventually and they'll advance to the next round.

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04-04-2013, 06:56 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Let me ask you a question, did you have a problem with Torts' system last night?

Or maybe, just maybe, the results were due to having players that fit better?
Did you by chance watch his post game from last night?

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04-04-2013, 07:00 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by jcman View Post
Did you by chance watch his post game from last night?
Don't think there was a post game due to being on NBC. I did check MSG to see if they had any coverage but it was a Knicks nights on the network.

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04-04-2013, 07:03 PM
  #829
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Don't think there was a post game due to being on NBC. I did check MSG to see if they had any coverage but it was a Knicks nights on the network.
All of Torts' postgames get posted on blueshirtsunited.com.

My whole point is that Riverdale wasn't necessarily knocking Torts' system, just saying that Torts himself said that he just let them go out and have fun and that sometimes coaches over-coach

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04-04-2013, 07:04 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by jcman View Post
All of Torts' postgames get posted on blueshirtsunited.com.

My whole point is that Riverdale wasn't necessarily knocking Torts' system, just saying that Torts himself said that he just let them go out and have fun and that sometimes coaches over-coach
That sure is a lot easier to say when you now have a roster that plays more like the way you want them to play.

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04-04-2013, 07:05 PM
  #831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Let me ask you a question, did you have a problem with Torts' system last night?

Or maybe, just maybe, the results were due to having players that fit better?
these guys arrived 15 minutes before warm ups... they don't know the system...

thats what happens when players are loose and aren't worried about a hot headed coach is going to bench them etc..

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04-04-2013, 07:07 PM
  #832
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Originally Posted by NYR2007 View Post
these guys arrived 15 minutes before warm ups... they don't know the system...

thats what happens when players are loose and aren't worried about a hot headed coach is going to bench them etc..
Give me a break. Tortorella's system is as simplistic as it gets. Its one based more on motivation.

These new guys had more motivation than anybody coming to a new team. You think they had to learn some elaborate system? And you think Tortorella benches people only if they deviate from it? Thats one of the biggest BS theories on these boards.

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04-04-2013, 07:08 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by NYR2007 View Post
these guys arrived 15 minutes before warm ups... they don't know the system...

thats what happens when players are loose and aren't worried about a hot headed coach is going to bench them etc..
Makes you think that these "systems" are very overrated, just go out and play friggin hockey. I think Torts needs to pick up Tom Coughlin's new book and learn about changing with your players and team.

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04-04-2013, 07:09 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by NYR2007 View Post
these guys arrived 15 minutes before warm ups... they don't know the system...

thats what happens when players are loose and aren't worried about a hot headed coach is going to bench them etc..
I've asked this in three different threads now and still no answer.

What players did Torts ruin? Who was good before they came to him, then came and suffered because of his coaching? Prust got far better, Gaborik put up two of the best seasons of his career, Nash is just a hair under PPG right now, Callahan continues to improve, Stepan is looking seriously improved this year, McD came into the NHL and became a first pairing D man quickly...

Everyone keeps saying that Torts and his system are going to ruin the new guys. What is this based on?

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04-04-2013, 07:24 PM
  #835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcman View Post
All of Torts' postgames get posted on blueshirtsunited.com.

My whole point is that Riverdale wasn't necessarily knocking Torts' system, just saying that Torts himself said that he just let them go out and have fun and that sometimes coaches over-coach
Yes.

I have no problem with any "system". So long as the coach who runs it is well... winning hockey games. That is what its all about.

Torts said "go have fun", now I don't expect hm to have his players skating around with their heads cut off like chickens. But these are professional athletes and sometimes maybe you need to let the death grip loosen a bit.

I rag on Torts a good deal, that doesn't mean I think he is a bad coach or that he could NEVER win anything here with this team. He does have a tendency to make crazy in-game decisions, usually with his lines. That drives me nuts.

I am on the fence with Torts. Lets see how things go now that we have a new group of guys.

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04-04-2013, 07:31 PM
  #836
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Renney never had this kind of young talent and his record as Rangers coach is arguably as good or better than Torts.

Tom Renney in full seasons plus season he was fired.

44-26-12 (100)
42-30-10 (94)
42-27-13 (97)
31-23-7 (fired with 69 points in 61 games)
11-13 playoffs

Torts full seasons plus current
38-33-11 (87)
44-33-5 (93)
51-24-7 (109)
18-15-3 (39 points in 36 games)
14-18 playoffs

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04-04-2013, 07:47 PM
  #837
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guy reminds me of coughlin.. hard noise, stubborn and very disciplinarian.. both are great coaches..

developed so many players here in such a short time!! and turned nobodies into somebodies.. love it!!

system is an over used word on here.. torts just want his forwards to forecheck hard, play physical, hit, get puck possession and tire out your opponent (pucks deep and grind away).. defense job is to take time and space move puck quickly (transition game), pinch in create opportunities.. its all about effort and in your face hockey.. i love it, bc its what hockeys all about it.. thats how bruins play.. i love there teamm.. all hard noise guys that play as one in your face.. nothing beats it.. model them as a team and youll be tough to play against night in night out.. thats why theyre one of the best yr in yr out..

love the moves.. just got to be consistent now!! It's all on the players!!

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04-05-2013, 04:34 AM
  #838
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Here's an interesting, though not exactly groundbreaking, quote from Vinny Prospal after Gaborik's 2-point debut for the BJs in Nashville.

A lot of nice things, but I don't like that a coach is unable to adapt.

I wonder if Tortorella could manage to have Jagr on his team, for example. There are some things that Jagr just doesn't do, or at least not very often, but teams tolerate that because he's so good offensively that they'll take the hit in those other areas.

Could Tortorella handle not taking out frustration on Jagr for that, and more importantly, could he adapt his strategy and system to compensate for Jagr's deficiencies in order to take advantage of the benefits?

Could he have managed to use a Pavel Bure to his team's advantage? SOOO many things about Pavel Bure could frustrate a coach, but he's arguably the greatest pure goalscorer of all-time. How do you not figure out a way to make it work?

How good does a skill player who doesn't do certain things that Tortorella expects from his players have to be in order for Johnny Cakes to tolerate him? Or does it not even matter?

These are, of course, extreme examples. A guy like Zherdev is certainly no Jagr. Avery is a good, useful player IMO, but he is just a bottom six role player. Gaborik is no Pavel Bure. Still, as recently as last season, he was one of the best offensive players in the league.

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04-05-2013, 07:10 AM
  #839
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The idea that a Stanley Cup, Jack Adams winning coach is unable to adapt to or at least make the most out of players who play a differing style than he would prefer is preposterous.

If we start going down that line of thinking, next thing you know people will be asking if it is possible Torts uses the lines, positions, ice time, in order to drive certain players he does not like off his team regardless of their past success, or what may make them successful at present.

If that were even remotely true, there would probably be questions put forth about other issues. Like asset management, if they Rangers are getting equal value back for the players Torts indirectly jettisons. Who is selected at the draft with the notion of what type of player may or may not fit in with the coaching regardless of talent. Which free agents pass on the Rangers because of the coaching prejudice towards only a select few types of players. How it would effect the Rangers options pertaining to trades.

It is silly to even consider it.

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04-05-2013, 07:48 AM
  #840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
The idea that a Stanley Cup, Jack Adams winning coach is unable to adapt to or at least make the most out of players who play a differing style than he would prefer is preposterous.

If we start going down that line of thinking, next thing you know people will be asking if it is possible Torts uses the lines, positions, ice time, in order to drive certain players he does not like off his team regardless of their past success, or what may make them successful at present.

If that were even remotely true, there would probably be questions put forth about other issues. Like asset management, if they Rangers are getting equal value back for the players Torts indirectly jettisons. Who is selected at the draft with the notion of what type of player may or may not fit in with the coaching regardless of talent. Which free agents pass on the Rangers because of the coaching prejudice towards only a select few types of players. How it would effect the Rangers options pertaining to trades.

It is silly to even consider it.
Are you saying Prospal is wrong, or are you flabbergasted at the fact Torts is unable to adapt? I'm not sure it should surprise anyone here. It has been our biggest complaint about him since his arrival. Other coaches have consistently out-coached him due to his inability to adapt when his way isn't working.

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04-05-2013, 07:56 AM
  #841
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Give me a break. Tortorella's system is as simplistic as it gets. Its one based more on motivation.
It's funny you should say this seeing as one of the biggest arguments people have used all season to defend Tortorella was that people were complaining about his system, yet were clueless to what his "system" actually was. However now it is a rudimentary thing based solely on motivation that players can learn on the fly without even practicing with the team. Interesting.

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04-05-2013, 08:11 AM
  #842
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I'm glad Marian Garbage is gone. He was a disgusting lazy bum on the ice and after finding out about the arguing and problems that were going on between him and Torts now it is very clear.

That is pretty crappy that he would do that to the other players on the team who give 100% every time they are out there. You think McD & Girardi who give everything they have when they are on the ice want to lose a play off spot because a spoiled Euro bum wants to play primadonna and do nothing? You think Staal wants to rush back from his injured eye to help the team when there are players who purposefully sabotage the team winning?

**** that bum I am glad he is gone. Next move Richards needs to wake up and get his play back and maybe we can get something going.

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04-05-2013, 08:42 AM
  #843
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
The idea that a Stanley Cup, Jack Adams winning coach is unable to adapt to or at least make the most out of players who play a differing style than he would prefer is preposterous.

If we start going down that line of thinking, next thing you know people will be asking if it is possible Torts uses the lines, positions, ice time, in order to drive certain players he does not like off his team regardless of their past success, or what may make them successful at present.

If that were even remotely true, there would probably be questions put forth about other issues. Like asset management, if they Rangers are getting equal value back for the players Torts indirectly jettisons. Who is selected at the draft with the notion of what type of player may or may not fit in with the coaching regardless of talent. Which free agents pass on the Rangers because of the coaching prejudice towards only a select few types of players. How it would effect the Rangers options pertaining to trades.

It is silly to even consider it.
And Brutus is an honorable man.


Last edited by mandiblesofdoom: 04-05-2013 at 08:51 AM. Reason: got the quote wrong - I corrected it.
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04-05-2013, 08:52 AM
  #844
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Also lets not forget Gaborik played for years under the progenitor of trap happy hockey in one Jaques Lemaire, and he was very successful there. As was he under Tortorella scoring 40 goals. The system isn't at fault. It was the willingness. The system needs every component (player) to buy in for it to work, and we've seen it work.

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04-05-2013, 09:09 AM
  #845
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Yes.
I am on the fence with Torts. Lets see how things go now that we have a new group of guys.
I am in the same camp as you.

I guess I'm an optimist, but I am hoping this new mix of players brings that intangible factor that solves alot of the Ranger's current problems.

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04-05-2013, 09:23 AM
  #846
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Watching the Devils/Rangers series last year it seemed to me that the Devils were intentionally shooting pucks wide and deflecting them on net since the Rangers were blocking everything. I think this is the type of thing you hope to see from a coach. Adapting your game to give you the edge.

The Rangers are an insanely predictable team. We also do not match lines. In a 7 game playoffs series this should be certain death since teams can easily develop a strategy to beat us and know that the coach will not do anything in response to it. I think this is why we struggled so bad in the first two rounds against teams that we really thought we would have done better against.

It just doesn't end there though.
1.) Constant line mixing(Who else does this with success?)
2.) Refuses to practice the Power Play
3.) Playing favorites(Down by two goals, Prust and Boyle playing 10 minutes in the 3rd)
4.) Powerplay personnel - Mitchell, Boyle(except 2 night ago!), Girardi... Lack of McDonagh
5.) No cycling whatsoever. I miss the days of Nedved/Hlavac/Dvorak. All 3 forwards are behind the goal line. It seems the only time we generate offense is when the defense has to pinch down and get in scoring position. Which leads me to my next point...
6.) Fear of making a mistake and being benched/scratched. How do you expect guys like Gilroy, Hamrlik, Moore, Bickel, and Eminger to step up like that when if it doesn't work out, they will probably be a healthy scratch the next game.
7.) Complete lack of freedom and creativity
8.) A number of the players seem to hate him
9.) He loves sticking with things proven not to work. Gabby on LW. Mitchell logging over 60 minutes of power play time last season and didn't score a single goal.

What I do have to give credit to Torts for is player development. I also think he had a hand in the youth movement and developing the team we have now. I think he would be a great assistant coach or a great AHL coach. I for one can not wait for him to be gone.

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04-05-2013, 09:31 AM
  #847
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Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
Also lets not forget Gaborik played for years under the progenitor of trap happy hockey in one Jaques Lemaire, and he was very successful there. As was he under Tortorella scoring 40 goals. The system isn't at fault. It was the willingness. The system needs every component (player) to buy in for it to work, and we've seen it work.
This proves to me at least, that Gaborikís problems were solely Gaborik this season. Iíve no doubt that Tortorella complicated the issue but heís known to ride his star players, as well he should.
Gaborik scoring a tap in goal yesterday doesnít make up for the fact that he helped dig his former team into a hole by going 20+ games without scoring.

Prospal hasnít said anything we didnít already know about Tortorella. I believe Tortorella can be successful here with the right personnel under him such as the players acquired recently. Weíre a lot better off staying away from your one dimensional scorers such as: Gaborik, Havlat, Hemskeys...

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04-05-2013, 09:35 AM
  #848
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It's funny you should say this seeing as one of the biggest arguments people have used all season to defend Tortorella was that people were complaining about his system, yet were clueless to what his "system" actually was. However now it is a rudimentary thing based solely on motivation that players can learn on the fly without even practicing with the team. Interesting.
Those complaints always need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Rather than some tactical gameplan, Torts' "system" is more based on grinding it out and winning battles. In his defense, that is something that every team needs to be a winner. On the flip side, theres not much room for adjustment. The folks who complain about Torts' refusal to adapt within the game is a very valid one.

What gets me is how that point has been distorted to incredible levels - where fans actually think that Tortorella's system involves dumping the puck at the red line at all costs, or else the player will feel the consequences. Or how one mistake nails you to the bench for a week. One thing I actually think Torts is pretty good at is deciphering who is playing well and who stinks on any given night.

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04-05-2013, 09:39 AM
  #849
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I think too much attention is paid to the type of system a coach runs. There are inherent advantages/disadvanteges to every system but in the grand scheme of things they are nearly irelevant.

Teams have succeeded and failed on every system the world has ever seen. The more impartant factor, and far more important at that, is the exectution. Ask any one who's been in the military and they'll tell you that its much better to have a poor plan perfectly executed, than a perfect plan thats poorly executed.

In all my years of following the rangers I have never seen a team that bought into and executed a system as uniformly as last years. Some of the credit for that goes on the team captains/leaders, some on the indivual players on the roster, and some on the coach.

For one reason or another, we're not getting the same quality of execution as last year. We can change the system all we want, but without drasticly improved execution the result will be the same.

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04-05-2013, 09:48 AM
  #850
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Those complaints always need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Rather than some tactical gameplan, Torts' "system" is more based on grinding it out and winning battles. In his defense, that is something that every team needs to be a winner. On the flip side, theres not much room for adjustment. The folks who complain about Torts' refusal to adapt within the game is a very valid one.

What gets me is how that point has been distorted to incredible levels - where fans actually think that Tortorella's system involves dumping the puck at the red line at all costs, or else the player will feel the consequences. Or how one mistake nails you to the bench for a week. One thing I actually think Torts is pretty good at is deciphering who is playing well and who stinks on any given night.
Indeed. But people have their favorites. And no matter how badly they might be playing, when one of their favorites or some shiny new toy gets benched, people are going to get mad at Torts.

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