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Vancouver offered Luongo for Scrivens + two 2nd rounders.

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Old
04-04-2013, 11:45 PM
  #576
MentalPowerHouse
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Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
Kesler being out for the majority of the year is not an excuse, it is a reason. How many Leafs have won the Selke in the past 15 years? Canucks had a .926% save percentage last year with the same defensive core (Bieksa, Edler, Hamhuis), and this season they have a .913% team save percentage this year. Did both Luongo and Schneider magically drop 13 points? If you have watched any Canuck game, the defense has been playing poorly and we are without Kesler. Goalies have saved us from at least half the games this season.
Well the Leafs have never had Kesler, so that 13 points drop should be added to all leaf goalies too I guess? Seriously are you arguing that the leafs have been a better team the past few years than the Canucks, or atleast during the span of Schneiders and Reimers career? The Canucks have been a better defensive team than the Leafs, this year and and the past few years, Kesler or not.

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04-04-2013, 11:46 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by MentalPowerHouse View Post
James Reimer (25 years old):

93 Games, 47 Wins, .913 SV%, 8 SO

Cory Schneider (27 years old)

90 games, 50 wins, .926 SV%, 7 SO

I can agree that Schneiders careers stats are slightly better, but they are currently playing at the same level with Reimer being younger.
Schneider's career numbers are 'slightly' better? Is Reimer 'slightly' better than a goalie with a .900SV%?

Schneider's career numbers are much better. The best SV% in the NHL over the past 3 seasons - Reimer is middling...

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04-04-2013, 11:50 PM
  #578
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When Luongo says he didn't traded because his contract sucks and Gillis contacted Toronto 3 times yesterday, there is NO DOUBT Gillis is desparate to trade Luongo.

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04-04-2013, 11:51 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by MentalPowerHouse View Post
Aren't you the one assuming that a small handful of teams within Division, or even half the teams in the league, would have matched or exceeded the deal but Vancouver declined? Half the league is in another conference, and 0 of those teams traded for Luongo. You are the one assuming they had better offers within division but declined. I am not bashing Vancouver for not trading him, I am just defending Toronto for not trading for him.

Just because they can absorb a contract does not mean they should, and you are the one assuming adding Luongo would impact their making the playoffs odds.
At this point, most of your rebuttals are extremely weak and cannot even be responded with. I am hypothetically speaking that if Nonis had a deal that was Scrivens and 2 2nd round picks, he would have been an idiot to reject the deal. I am not assuming that there was a better offer from a team within the division, I am simply providing a counter argument towards your assumption that "there was no offer that matched or surpassed the deal". I am providing a counter-argument, not making an assumption. Let's get that straight. I highly doubt there was an incredible offer from the conference that the Nucks rejected, but I am saying it is unfair to say there was no offer that was matched or surpassed.

However, the same point I have been reiterating for the past 3 pages, if Nonis was presented with this deal, he should have taken it without thinking twice.

Leafs are one of the few teams that can absorb the massive contract, ready to compete, and seeking for consistent goaltending for several seasons. If James Reimer was so amazing, why did Nonis want to acquire Kippursoff at the deadline? It is obvious Nonis and co. does not have a huge amount of trust for James Reimer (evident by the desperation of a goalie who did not want to leave Calgary and is having a horrid year).

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04-04-2013, 11:52 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Schneider's career numbers are 'slightly' better? Is Reimer 'slightly' better than a goalie with a .900SV%?

Schneider's career numbers are much better. The best SV% in the NHL over the past 3 seasons - Reimer is middling...
Really? We are comparing a goalie in Schneider who is 27 vs a 25 year old goalie, and saying that at a .10 SV% makes one a top 10 goalie and another a bum who should be replaced by Luongo even though their current year numbers are essentially identical?

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04-04-2013, 11:56 PM
  #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Schneider's career numbers are 'slightly' better? Is Reimer 'slightly' better than a goalie with a .900SV%?

Schneider's career numbers are much better. The best SV% in the NHL over the past 3 seasons - Reimer is middling...
Factor in the fact that under Ron Wilson, defensemen were liberally encouraged to jump in on the rush, leading to odd man chances the other way (and also why the Leafs were pretty high up in d-men points last year).

Also the fact in the talent difference in actual defensive play.

I don't care to get into pissing matches with Canuck fans who won't be reasoned with when they talk about Schneider/Luongo - fine, they're good goalies.

But it doesn't make sense for Toronto to give up any sort of significant asset to make up that piddly difference from James Reimer when there are other holes to fill, and other things to worry about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
However, the same point I have been reiterating for the past 3 pages, if Nonis was presented with this deal, he should have taken it without thinking twice.

Leafs are one of the few teams that can absorb the massive contract, ready to compete, and seeking for consistent goaltending for several seasons. If James Reimer was so amazing, why did Nonis want to acquire Kippursoff at the deadline? It is obvious Nonis and co. does not have a huge amount of trust for James Reimer (evident by the desperation of a goalie who did not want to leave Calgary and is having a horrid year).
Yes the Leafs can financially take the contract. But there's no reason to have a $5.3 million contract on your books well into the next decade. Cap space isn't something to be spent because you have the room. It's something you plan around.

Kipprusoff would've been a mentor to Reimer, not a starter. It's more of a veteran presence to help him develop. It was hardly a desperation move. And it was also an injury hedge.

Otherwise, Nonis is right to go into the playoffs with Reimer and see what he's got. It's not like the Leafs have cup aspirations - think of it as a building block to get a rather young team much-needed playoff experience.

Edit: by the way, second round draft picks are hardly anything to scoff at, in terms of price. The Leafs aren't buyers at this point - they're not contenders looking to make a deep playoff run. This is a year where they make the playoffs and use it as a building block. Whatever run they make is a bonus. You don't throw away planning for the future because you're a 5-6 seed in a short year.


Last edited by Briecheeze: 04-05-2013 at 12:03 AM.
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04-04-2013, 11:57 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by MentalPowerHouse View Post
Really? We are comparing a goalie in Schneider who is 27 vs a 25 year old goalie, and saying that at a .10 SV% makes one a top 10 goalie and another a bum who should be replaced by Luongo even though their current year numbers are essentially identical?
13*

Maybe when you can do proper math or proper research someone will take you seriously...

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04-05-2013, 12:02 AM
  #583
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Would it not be possible for Luongo to decide to re structure his contract so he would be easier to trade and get his wish to play elsewhere? I am sure he could change it and still be making close to same wage but be more appetizing to other teams.

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04-05-2013, 12:03 AM
  #584
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It's a horrible contract for a team who isn't ready to compete or is not in the financial situation to absorb his contract. Leafs do not fit either criteria. Fact is, Zajac is an average second line center making nearly 6M. A 5.3M starting goalie is nothing substantial when you put the contract into perspective..
Its the term, not the cap hit.

The Leafs obviously don't want Luongo very much. If they did, he would be a Leaf. Gillis called Nonis several times leading up to the deadline. Each time his price dropped and each time the Leafs declined...


Gillis needs to stop trying to save face. Nobody wants to make a hockey trade for Luongo. Luongo himself admitted his contract sucks... Save your owner money, free up cap space for your team and get rid of him.

Luongo + 7th for 7th is probably something Nonis would strongly consider.


The Canucks window to win is now and that 5.3m isn't helping them win a cup sitting on the bench.


Love seeing Gillis caught with his pants down.. Serves him right after all he BS he's been feeding the media throughout this whole debacle. 4-5 teams are in it? My ass.

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04-05-2013, 12:05 AM
  #585
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Originally Posted by Rogi View Post
Would it not be possible for Luongo to decide to re structure his contract so he would be easier to trade and get his wish to play elsewhere? I am sure he could change it and still be making close to same wage but be more appetizing to other teams.
He'd probably love to do it, considering his remarks yesterday, but the NHLPA would never let it stand.

It's all about setting a precedent. If Luongo does it, then teams might start to pressure their players to restructure their contracts under threat of playing time. And then you'd start to look like the NFL, where contracts aren't guaranteed and players almost never play out their contracts.

The PA would block it first thing. Or at the very least tie the thing up in court for a long time.

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04-05-2013, 12:06 AM
  #586
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Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
13*

Maybe when you can do proper math or proper research someone will take you seriously...
Insulting other people may make you feel better about yourself, but it doesn't make Luongo any more attractive on the trade market. Sorry.

The term remaining on Luongo's contract is incredibly unattractive.. Apparently you're among the few who can't grasp that.

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04-05-2013, 12:07 AM
  #587
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Originally Posted by Briecheeze View Post
Factor in the fact that under Ron Wilson, defensemen were liberally encouraged to jump in on the rush, leading to odd man chances the other way (and also why the Leafs were pretty high up in d-men points last year).

Also the fact in the talent difference in actual defensive play.

I don't care to get into pissing matches with Canuck fans who won't be reasoned with when they talk about Schneider/Luongo - fine, they're good goalies.

But it doesn't make sense for Toronto to give up any sort of significant asset to make up that piddly difference from James Reimer when there are other holes to fill, and other things to worry about.



Yes the Leafs can financially take the contract. But there's no reason to have a $5.3 million contract on your books well into the next decade. Cap space isn't something to be spent because you have the room. It's something you plan around.

Kipprusoff would've been a mentor to Reimer, not a starter. It's more of a veteran presence to help him develop. It was hardly a desperation move. And it was also an injury hedge.

Otherwise, Nonis is right to go into the playoffs with Reimer and see what he's got. It's not like the Leafs have cup aspirations - think of it as a building block to get a rather young team much-needed playoff experience.

Edit: by the way, second round draft picks are hardly anything to scoff at, in terms of price. The Leafs aren't buyers at this point - they're not contenders looking to make a deep playoff run. This is a year where they make the playoffs and use it as a building block. Whatever run they make is a bonus. You don't throw away planning for the future because you're a 5-6 seed in a short year.
So you would have paid Kipursoff 5.6M for the next couple years (reports saying he wanted an extension if traded) to be a backup? Sounds awfully similar to a situation in Vancouver that everyone has ridiculed on...

Cap space does not roll over. Why do Leaf fans make it sound like 5.3M is such an incredible amount of cap hit for a top 10 goaltender? The cap hit is universally agreed upon, not the problem. At least for the next 4-5 years. How is trading 2 2nd round picks throwing away the future? Give me some more exaggeration please.

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04-05-2013, 12:07 AM
  #588
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Anyone interested in opening a poll of who's better:

Reimer

Or

Schneider

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04-05-2013, 12:12 AM
  #589
MentalPowerHouse
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Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
At this point, most of your rebuttals are extremely weak and cannot even be responded with. I am hypothetically speaking that if Nonis had a deal that was Scrivens and 2 2nd round picks, he would have been an idiot to reject the deal. I am not assuming that there was a better offer from a team within the division, I am simply providing a counter argument towards your assumption that "there was no offer that matched or surpassed the deal". I am providing a counter-argument, not making an assumption. Let's get that straight. I highly doubt there was an incredible offer from the conference that the Nucks rejected, but I am saying it is unfair to say there was no offer that was matched or surpassed.

However, the same point I have been reiterating for the past 3 pages, if Nonis was presented with this deal, he should have taken it without thinking twice.

Leafs are one of the few teams that can absorb the massive contract, ready to compete, and seeking for consistent goaltending for several seasons. If James Reimer was so amazing, why did Nonis want to acquire Kippursoff at the deadline? It is obvious Nonis and co. does not have a huge amount of trust for James Reimer (evident by the desperation of a goalie who did not want to leave Calgary and is having a horrid year).
You seem to be making the assumptions, that the Leafs wanted Kipper for their #1 over Reimer rather than mentor, or that they wanted him at all. That the leafs want Luongo at all. That any team wants Luongo. That the leafs don't trust Reimer, yet have made no moves for a goalie.

I am not assuming anything at all, just putting it out there that 0 teams paid 2 2nds + middle prospect (Scrivens) for Luongo. Is that not a fact? To bash the Leafs for not paying that price, when 0 teams were willing, or atleast half the teams if Vancouver wouldn't consider in conference, is not reasonable. That is all I am saying.

The other major point I i bring up is pointing out that Reimer and Schneider are rather equivalent players. Their current year stats are almost identical, with Reimber being 2 years younger, with their career stats not significantly different.

If there was a poll, Schneider vs Reimer, I would pick Schneider. But if I was a GM I would be happy with either as my future in net.

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04-05-2013, 12:14 AM
  #590
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Anyone interested in opening a poll of who's better:

Reimer

Or

Schneider
I don't think anyone would argue that Schneider is better... Just that the gap isn't significant enough to justify taking on a 34 year old goalie with 9 years remaining on his contract.


The Leafs are getting quality goaltending for the first time in years and the result is a probable playoff appearance.

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04-05-2013, 12:14 AM
  #591
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Insulting other people may make you feel better about yourself, but it doesn't make Luongo any more attractive on the trade market. Sorry.

The term remaining on Luongo's contract is incredibly unattractive.. Apparently you're among the few who can't grasp that.
I can grasp the fact that Luongo's term is incredibly unattractive. However, that does NOT destroy his value. Luongo + 7th for a 7th is a joke. Scott Gomez got traded with 5 years left on his 7.375 M contract for Ryan McDonagh (in 2009-2010 with a salary cap at 56.8M, incredibly lower than this year's cap). Gomez still had 36.875M left on his remaining contract over a shorter term, and still managed to get traded for a B+ prospect at the time, who's now a solid #2 defenseman. To believe that Luongo truly has no trade value is extremely childish.

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04-05-2013, 12:14 AM
  #592
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Dreger ruined his rep by that shameless performance acting as the Ahmadinijad of hockey by spreading Nonis propoganda.

He might as well go back to sportsnet. He no longer fits in with the classy broadcasters at TSN.

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04-05-2013, 12:16 AM
  #593
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Originally Posted by MentalPowerHouse View Post
You seem to be making the assumptions, that the Leafs wanted Kipper for their #1 over Reimer rather than mentor, or that they wanted him at all. That the leafs want Luongo at all. That any team wants Luongo. That the leafs don't trust Reimer, yet have made no moves for a goalie.

I am not assuming anything at all, just putting it out there that 0 teams paid 2 2nds + middle prospect (Scrivens) for Luongo. Is that not a fact? To bash the Leafs for not paying that price, when 0 teams were willing, or atleast half the teams if Vancouver wouldn't consider in conference, is not reasonable. That is all I am saying.

The other major point I i bring up is pointing out that Reimer and Schneider are rather equivalent players. Their current year stats are almost identical, with Reimber being 2 years younger, with their career stats not significantly different.
How am I assuming the Leafs wanted Kipper? We all knew Nonis wanted to acquire Kipper. Calagary even came out and gave permission to the Leafs to speak to Kipursoff. You make yourself look worse and worse with each post, keep going though...

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04-05-2013, 12:17 AM
  #594
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I don't think anyone would argue that Schneider is better... Just that the gap isn't significant enough to justify taking on a 34 year old goalie with 9 years remaining on his contract.


The Leafs are getting quality goaltending for the first time in years and the result is a probable playoff appearance.
So Reimer is a Franchise goalie for the Maple Leafs?

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04-05-2013, 12:17 AM
  #595
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Anyone interested in opening a poll of who's better:

Reimer

Or

Schneider
Why not run an accompanying poll, who's hotter:

Janet Reno

Or

Angelina Jolie

I bet the results from non biased responders are about equal.

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04-05-2013, 12:18 AM
  #596
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Anyone interested in opening a poll of who's better:

Reimer

Or

Schneider
Reimer, duh

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04-05-2013, 12:19 AM
  #597
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How am I assuming the Leafs wanted Kipper? We all knew Nonis wanted to acquire Kipper. Calagary even came out and gave permission to the Leafs to speak to Kipursoff. You make yourself look worse and worse with each post, keep going though...
I didn't deny that Toronto Wanted Kipper as a backup/mentor, or can you not read?

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04-05-2013, 12:21 AM
  #598
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I didn't deny that Toronto Wanted Kipper as a backup/mentor, or can you not read?
So are you suggesting that Nonis wanted a backup/mentor with a 5.8 million dollar cap hit?

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04-05-2013, 12:25 AM
  #599
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So are you suggesting that Nonis wanted a backup/mentor with a 5.8 million dollar cap hit?
Where did I suggest that? As far I know I have not. JohnHodgon is assuming the Leafs wanted Kipper as the #1, I just pointed out that its his assumption. Maybe the leafs wanted him as their #1, maybe #2, who is to say but pure assumptions.

And yeah maybe they were interested in Kipper for the rest of this year at 5.8 cap hit prorated (your assumption not mine), which is peanuts, that's rather irrelevant compared the Loungos contract.

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04-05-2013, 12:27 AM
  #600
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Originally Posted by MentalPowerHouse View Post
I didn't deny that Toronto Wanted Kipper as a backup/mentor, or can you not read?
"You seem to be making the assumptions, that the Leafs wanted Kipper for their #1 over Reimer rather than mentor, or that they wanted him at all."

Read it. Read your own words of wisdom.

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