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Old
03-21-2013, 08:18 AM
  #876
barrytrotzsneck
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I was going over this on Twitter yesterday...this concept that BT "hates scoring forwards" is silly.

You don't have to have a defensive game to succeed under Trotz. Hornqvist is one of his darlings and doesn't have an ounce of defensive ability. Wilson is slowly earning Trotz's trust, despite a still-deficient defensive game.

The difference in a player like Smith, that just can't seem to catch on...or Boychuk...they not onlyl don't have defensive games, they don't move their legs. The one thing Trotz does NOT tolerate is floating. Smith and Boychuk are recent examples...Brandon Bochenski, Marek Svatos...the list of past examples goes on and on. Terry Crisp admits he couldn't stand Brett Hull when he was on the Flames because his game was hovering in one spot until the puck came to him. Trotz is the same way.

As I said earlier, we haven't developed a top flight sniper, but t hen again, we also haven't really drafted one. Most of the people we've drafted have been second line upsiders, and I think we've done an okay job of getting them there.

If you want to point fingers, point them at Poile\Fenton for their philsophy, but Trotz has done with what he's been given.

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03-21-2013, 08:34 AM
  #877
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BT's system IMHO does make it harder on centers to score.

Do you guys not think Trotz system is one of the more conservative offensive systems in the league? I can pull some quotes on that if you give me time.

I don't think BT hates offense, he hates risk, he hates turnovers, he hates missed assignments but he doesn't hate offense.

It's funny the offensive players that have been brought that were established seemed to get the most leeway. For example, Kariya and Sullivan were cherry picking kings, do you think Smith or Wilson would get away with that? Arnott was the laziest backchecker on the team, and he was a center, there's no way Trotz wouldn't bash Legwand in the paper for that.

So which is it? Does Poile fail at drafting talent or does BT fail at developing it? I don't have the answer but the results are in.

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03-21-2013, 08:59 AM
  #878
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I don't think it's "hates risk" I think he believes we should control what we can and manage what we can, meaning play smart, keep moving, do right things, take calculated risks - and you earn the right to do that by doing the others.

Other than legwand, who have we drafted that just tore up juniors/minors that hasn't done that? haven't we mostly gotten what you would expect given the Fs pedigree?

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03-21-2013, 09:02 AM
  #879
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Originally Posted by deanwormer View Post
I don't think it's "hates risk" I think he believes we should control what we can and manage what we can, meaning play smart, keep moving, do right things, take calculated risks - and you earn the right to do that by doing the others.

Other than legwand, who have we drafted that just tore up juniors/minors that hasn't done that? haven't we mostly gotten what you would expect given the Fs pedigree?
Fully agree, that's why I posted Poile's first round draft results. I just disagree with it just being a "talent" issue. There's blame on both parties.

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03-21-2013, 09:30 AM
  #880
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I think BT's system changes day to day the overall scheme is there but mixed messages have always made it to the players. One game there focus is on quality chances the next game there promoting shoths on goal and another game there focus is on capitalizing on the chances they get. Is it any wonder the players are squirting arround like the keystone cops?

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03-21-2013, 11:29 AM
  #881
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The line changing doesn't help eithet. I do not think the word chemistry is inTrotz vocabulary

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03-21-2013, 12:54 PM
  #882
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The line changing doesn't help eithet. I do not think the word chemistry is inTrotz vocabulary
there isn't a team in the league that doesn't shuffle lines

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03-22-2013, 09:04 AM
  #883
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As much and with as many different players as the Preds do. I think not.

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03-22-2013, 09:33 AM
  #884
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As much and with as many different players as the Preds do. I think not.
Scotty Bowman was notorious for changing his lines throughout the game.

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03-22-2013, 09:41 AM
  #885
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I agree teams change up lines. That's normal to the extent the Preds do? I don't see it. This team lacking chemistry is obvious.

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03-22-2013, 09:51 AM
  #886
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When you have a team of 3rd and 4th liners blowing up lines every night is not a positive thing. This year has been uncommon for even Trotz. In the Past he had a identified 1st line that he did not mess with too much. 2nd and 3rd lines were juggled pretty regularly and the 4th line had a couple guys that were mainstays and 1 slot for who was in the doghouse. This year he has had a 4th line that remained the same much of the time when Goose is not hurt, the remainder of the lines have been drawn from a hat. And you can even throw the defensive pairings there too.

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Old
03-22-2013, 10:39 AM
  #887
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and as you all requested, lines were pretty much set most of the game last night.... defensive pairs, too....

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04-05-2013, 06:47 AM
  #888
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cant believe I had to go back two weeks to find this thread

gotta wonder if we arent set for an epic slide to end the season much like 02-03 when we were decimated by injuries

out of our ten games remaining there are only two where we would be considered the favorite to win.

I could envision something like 0-8-2 the rest of the way....


now, I put this in the negativity thread because it would be painful to watch if it happens, but the upside is we'd not only have the high draft position but you'd think a 13th place finish would put a lot more pressure on Poile to do some real heavy lifting this summer.

Im not saying we should "tank" ie, try to lose, but I think the tank is coming whether we want it or not.

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04-05-2013, 07:36 AM
  #889
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cant believe I had to go back two weeks to find this thread

gotta wonder if we arent set for an epic slide to end the season much like 02-03 when we were decimated by injuries

out of our ten games remaining there are only two where we would be considered the favorite to win.

I could envision something like 0-8-2 the rest of the way....


now, I put this in the negativity thread because it would be painful to watch if it happens, but the upside is we'd not only have the high draft position but you'd think a 13th place finish would put a lot more pressure on Poile to do some real heavy lifting this summer.

Im not saying we should "tank" ie, try to lose, but I think the tank is coming whether we want it or not.
If we finish that low, we should be getting another high end talent in the draft. Hopefully it would be another stud up front like Forsberg. We do that and all of a sudden we do what we've been hoping for, getting top end talent like the Hawks and Penguins did and you have guys to build around but we've already got pieces in place to be good so you insert them in the lineup, move guys down to the right lines and you've got a pretty good team and the young guys have veterans to lean on and learn from. It also allows your core of young players to grow as a team.

I said it in another thread, look at the young talent we've got right now. Wilson, Smith, Bourque, Beck, Budish and Hornqvist, oh, and that kid we got in that trade for Mr. Hair, what's his name again, oh, FORSBERG. Now take Smith out of the equation for one second and you've got 6 forwards. Wilson and Forsberg can both play the pivot. You've got a monster power forward prospect in Budish(big kid with soft hands), you've got a proven 25-30 goal scorer in Hornqvist, you've got Beck who appears to be the real deal and Bourque is well, Bourque. You've got different types of forwards which is a nice change up front. Add Forsberg who is another quick forward with great playmaking and scoring ability and the talent offensively is pretty darn good. You add another scorer type up front and now we've got depth.

Now here's the thing, I haven't mentioned any of the other young players we have on the team or coming up through the system. Spaling is a solid number 3 center. Watson is a bigger version of Spaling and looks to be a solid kid coming up as well. As much as people don't like SK, he's still young and a pretty good player and honestly, I thought he played his best game last night, he looked motivated for whatever reason.

So right there, before we even mention Smith, Legwand or Fisher, or whoever we end up with in the draft this year, that's a top 9, most all of who are under the age of 25. That's a bright future. Add to that the vets that are still here and I think we'll be ok. It may not be pretty for a year or two but at the same time, it may be a lot of fun to watch these kids grow in front of our eyes.

To me, we may have the best top 3 on the blue line of any team in the game in Weber, Josi and Klein, that's just me of course but you'd be hard pressed to find a better top 3 blue liners on one team. You've still got Rinne in net and while he hasn't look all world this year, he's still a beast.

With that said, does Poile have to do a lot this offseason? I don't think so. Just make the right pick with the first pick in the draft and get a top end offensive talent or if we're lucky enough, maybe Seth Jones is still around and then we've got arguably the best top 4 in the game for the next 10 years. The other good thing is we should have a high second round pick as well so don't mess that one up either and we'll be moving forward quite well.

Oh, and as I was typing this, I forgot about Aberg and Leipsic. Either one of those pan out and all of a sudden we've got more talent up front than we know what to do with.

If Poile is going to do anything it would be via trade because the free agent market isn't going to make us better for the long term, only short term and I'd rather use some of the pieces we have in the system to help us get players that can also help us for the long term. What Poile did with Erat was a great move. Take a good player and move him for an elite talent.

This retool or whatever we're about to go through will not take as long as people think.

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Old
04-05-2013, 08:32 AM
  #890
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I don't think we can compete for the next two years without adding proven scoring this summer. We can all be excited about our youth but youth is notoriously inconsistent. Just look at how long its taken Wilson to get the memo. And look at how hard smith has fallen after initial high expectations. We cannot assume that Bourque and Beck and Smith are all going to become consistent 20+ goal scorers over the summer. We have to add at least one forward with NHL experience this summer, two if we end up trading SK. Otherwise we are looking at a two year rebuild and the problem then becomes how long is Pekka going to be elite?

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04-05-2013, 08:39 AM
  #891
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I don't think we can compete for the next two years without adding proven scoring this summer. We can all be excited about our youth but youth is notoriously inconsistent. Just look at how long its taken Wilson to get the memo. And look at how hard smith has fallen after initial high expectations. We cannot assume that Bourque and Beck and Smith are all going to become consistent 20+ goal scorers over the summer. We have to add at least one forward with NHL experience this summer, two if we end up trading SK. Otherwise we are looking at a two year rebuild and the problem then becomes how long is Pekka going to be elite?
And who do you add via free agency to do this? There isn't anyone on the market that's a good fit that doesn't take time away from the youth.

Not saying Trotz hasn't done a good job as a coach but we need someone who is willing to live with some of their mistakes while grooming them for the future and I don't think Trotz has that in him. He is always going to go with his vets over the youth, hence Gaustad over Smith at this point. We need a coach who is going to give the kids the time to grow and learn and teach them at the same time. Trotz trying to win now is not going to help their long term development.

And youth is inconsistent but the only way they become more consistent is by experience and if they sit or get benched for doing the same mistakes that the vets make, what message does that send? It's not the same message for all players. Gill makes bad plays and is out for his next shift, Blum does the same thing and he's out of the lineup for a few weeks.

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04-05-2013, 08:50 AM
  #892
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And here's something else to think about. I don't understand why our captain has to play so nice. The best D-men in his vain have always played with an edge, the latest two that come to mind are Pronger and Stevens. Why are we not wanting Weber to play like that? Yeah, he'll take a few more penalties but is the reward worth it? Other teams would not be as willing to engage if they knew they were going to get a Weber check into the boards or slammed to the ice. It would also ignite a fire under the guys on our bench to play with that same fire. When your leaders play under control, the rest of the team plays that way. Play on the edge or just past the line. It pays off. Instead, we have a coach and staff asking our best player to keep his emotions in check so he might not draw a penalty or two. I think it's a huge mistake. Weber when playing with that edge is a freaking beast. It brings excitement to the ice, the arena and the players. What's so bad about that? Why must we be nice. This is hockey, not yoga class. Play with fire. Play with emotion. I just don't see it from most of the guys this year and to think a guy like Tootoo brought that to the ice every night and we said we wouldn't miss it but we obviously do.

Let Weber loose. Let him play to his potential, not this controlled, contrived sort of way of hockey that he is supposed to stick to. Play to his strengths. Tick the guy off before the game. Make him mad. Kick him in the nuts if it gets him fired up. Cut his face with a high stick. Insult him. I don't care. Get the most out of him. Unleash the beast. A great coach would see this and get the most out of him. I'm just not seeing how this is the best Weber can be. It also gives our guys the confidence to know he's ready and willing to do battle. Lead and your troops follow suit.

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04-05-2013, 08:59 AM
  #893
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if we tank, or lose on purpose I hope we draft scottie upshall 2.0

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04-05-2013, 09:08 AM
  #894
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Well I did something last night I thought I'd never do... I got PO'ed enough after sitting through the Columbus game to list my tickets on TicketExchange for the Chicago game hoping to see Hawks fans pay me to make it essentially a Chicago home game. I listed them in below what everybody else is trying to get to move them and still make a few bucks towards next years renewal. I feel the players/coaches need to experience the mob turning on them at home a bit to get a dose of our frustration. At least play with more of an edge than what I saw last night. If we're going to lose, at least make the other team feel some pain in the process!!

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04-05-2013, 09:26 AM
  #895
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And here's something else to think about. I don't understand why our captain has to play so nice. The best D-men in his vain have always played with an edge, the latest two that come to mind are Pronger and Stevens. Why are we not wanting Weber to play like that? Yeah, he'll take a few more penalties but is the reward worth it? Other teams would not be as willing to engage if they knew they were going to get a Weber check into the boards or slammed to the ice. It would also ignite a fire under the guys on our bench to play with that same fire. When your leaders play under control, the rest of the team plays that way. Play on the edge or just past the line. It pays off. Instead, we have a coach and staff asking our best player to keep his emotions in check so he might not draw a penalty or two. I think it's a huge mistake. Weber when playing with that edge is a freaking beast. It brings excitement to the ice, the arena and the players. What's so bad about that? Why must we be nice. This is hockey, not yoga class. Play with fire. Play with emotion. I just don't see it from most of the guys this year and to think a guy like Tootoo brought that to the ice every night and we said we wouldn't miss it but we obviously do.

Let Weber loose. Let him play to his potential, not this controlled, contrived sort of way of hockey that he is supposed to stick to. Play to his strengths. Tick the guy off before the game. Make him mad. Kick him in the nuts if it gets him fired up. Cut his face with a high stick. Insult him. I don't care. Get the most out of him. Unleash the beast. A great coach would see this and get the most out of him. I'm just not seeing how this is the best Weber can be. It also gives our guys the confidence to know he's ready and willing to do battle. Lead and your troops follow suit.
I think it's a comfort level. Give him more time with Josi and we'll see Weber back in form.

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04-05-2013, 09:35 AM
  #896
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I think it's a comfort level. Give him more time with Josi and we'll see Weber back in form.
He rarely played like that with Suter either.

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04-05-2013, 10:36 AM
  #897
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And here's something else to think about. I don't understand why our captain has to play so nice. The best D-men in his vain have always played with an edge, the latest two that come to mind are Pronger and Stevens. Why are we not wanting Weber to play like that? Yeah, he'll take a few more penalties but is the reward worth it? Other teams would not be as willing to engage if they knew they were going to get a Weber check into the boards or slammed to the ice. It would also ignite a fire under the guys on our bench to play with that same fire. When your leaders play under control, the rest of the team plays that way. Play on the edge or just past the line. It pays off. Instead, we have a coach and staff asking our best player to keep his emotions in check so he might not draw a penalty or two. I think it's a huge mistake. Weber when playing with that edge is a freaking beast. It brings excitement to the ice, the arena and the players. What's so bad about that? Why must we be nice. This is hockey, not yoga class. Play with fire. Play with emotion. I just don't see it from most of the guys this year and to think a guy like Tootoo brought that to the ice every night and we said we wouldn't miss it but we obviously do.

Let Weber loose. Let him play to his potential, not this controlled, contrived sort of way of hockey that he is supposed to stick to. Play to his strengths. Tick the guy off before the game. Make him mad. Kick him in the nuts if it gets him fired up. Cut his face with a high stick. Insult him. I don't care. Get the most out of him. Unleash the beast. A great coach would see this and get the most out of him. I'm just not seeing how this is the best Weber can be. It also gives our guys the confidence to know he's ready and willing to do battle. Lead and your troops follow suit.
I rather imagine Henrik Zetterberg would not be happy with this.

I also recall some folks getting really annoyed about Weber getting himself off the ice for 5 minutes in the first game of the year after scrapping with Jared Boll.

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04-05-2013, 10:57 AM
  #898
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04-05-2013, 11:38 AM
  #899
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I rather imagine Henrik Zetterberg would not be happy with this.

I also recall some folks getting really annoyed about Weber getting himself off the ice for 5 minutes in the first game of the year after scrapping with Jared Boll.
And while the Boll penalty was questionable, he was sticking up for a teammate who got leveled by Boll. That is what a captain and teammate is supposed to do. It set the tone for other teams and not many guys try that but I'm sure if Weber would be a little more physical/mean on the ice, less guys would even think or even try it.

I don't want Weber going off the ice with Boll since the talent level is so different but at the same time, if he does nothing, what does that say about him and his leadership? There is a fine line here and I wish he'd play closer to the Zetterberg line than the ho-hum line we see so often. You have a guy in the corner with the puck and a good angle to crush him, do it. Put down your really really fat money filled purse and hit someone with some force. Guys won't want the puck when Weber is on the ice and that's part of having a big mean defenseman like him. You think guys didn't think about Stevens when they were crossing the middle of the ice after he laid out Lindros? That's what you want, indecision and the thought in the back of your head of, am I going to get crushed any time soon? Hockey is physical as well as mental and emotional. I'd like a little more physical and emotional to match his vastly improved mental game. Is that too much to ask for?

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04-05-2013, 12:38 PM
  #900
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Weber is one of the most physical defensemen in the league. He's not going to throw big hits all the time but throws his share, especially in the corners.

Look at his hit totals.

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