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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM (Part II)

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04-04-2013, 06:06 PM
  #251
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I think we do have a good foundation. My beef with Sherman is that I think he believes guys like Matt Hunwick are part of it.

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04-04-2013, 06:33 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
I like that he tried to spin off other team's inquiries as Colorado having a solid "foundation."

24 losses in 36 games. The foundation is not solid. Matt Duchene and PA Parenteau are like pieces of fine China sitting in a shack.
#1C, 2 excellent #2Cs, a franchise LW, a top line RW, a good 2nd line LW, a good 2nd/3rd line RW, a first pairing Dman, a quality second pairing, some capable third pairing guys and a franchise Goalie. I'd say that's a solid foundation that needs another first pairing dman and a dynamic winger.

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04-04-2013, 06:40 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
I like that he tried to spin off other team's inquiries as Colorado having a solid "foundation."

24 losses in 36 games. The foundation is not solid. Matt Duchene and PA Parenteau are like pieces of fine China sitting in a shack.
You forgot the team also has Landy, EJ, Varly, and O'Reilly. Not to mention whoever they draft this year in the 1st. That's a solid foundation a team like Calgary or Buffalo would love to have a few years from now after their rebuilds.

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04-04-2013, 07:03 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
I like that he tried to spin off other team's inquiries as Colorado having a solid "foundation."

24 losses in 36 games. The foundation is not solid. Matt Duchene and PA Parenteau are like pieces of fine China sitting in a shack.
My fear is that he is not trying to "spin off" anything, and that he actually believes what he is saying.

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04-04-2013, 08:23 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Would you have said the same thing about Duchene twelve months ago?
The absolute cream of the crop and the cornerstone of the rebuild. How many players will turn things around that much to make the Avalanche go from 30th to a playoff spot?

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04-04-2013, 08:49 PM
  #256
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The absolute cream of the crop and the cornerstone of the rebuild. How many players will turn things around that much to make the Avalanche go from 30th to a playoff spot?
What individual players have elevated their play significantly to make Oilers go from dead last to contending for a playoff spot? On the Islanders and Blue Jackets?

Taking the next step for Avs is much more about system, confidence, learning how to win games than it is about player x scoring more points.

Of course there is no guarantee that those things will improve for next season, but I suspect there is an urgency to try to fix those things after this season turned out to be a complete waste when it should have been a season the team took the next step.

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04-04-2013, 08:55 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
What individual players have elevated their play significantly to make Oilers go from dead last to contending for a playoff spot? On the Islanders and Blue Jackets?

Taking the next step for Avs is much more about system, confidence, learning how to win games than it is about player x scoring more points.

Of course there is no guarantee that those things will improve for next season, but I suspect there is an urgency to try to fix those things after this season turned out to be a complete waste when it should have been a season the team took the next step.
Or Montreal? Went from last in the East and 3rd worst overall last year, to 4th in the East, and one point away from 2nd in the East, and 4th overall.

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04-04-2013, 09:14 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
What individual players have elevated their play significantly to make Oilers go from dead last to contending for a playoff spot? On the Islanders and Blue Jackets?
The Islanders are on pace for 86 points and they had 79 last year. It's not a huge turn around. Columbus? They're a completely different team after two huge trades with the New York Rangers and one with the LA Kings.

The Oilers are a good example of a team getting better without an obvious significant additions. But better is relative. They're clawing for a playoff spot much like the Avalanche did last season, and like Colorado they'll probably miss out. Which is fine as long as they don't do what the Avalanche did with their defense last off-season.

And that's basically the underlying point of my posts in their thread. It's one thing to be a bad team. It's another to be a bad team loaded with veterans under contract.

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04-04-2013, 09:17 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Or Montreal? Went from last in the East and 3rd worst overall last year, to 4th in the East, and one point away from 2nd in the East, and 4th overall.
Montreal has made it to the playoffs in the four years prior to last season, going to the EC finals once an losing to the eventual SC winner another.

We, on the other hand, have missed the playoffs for the 3rd consecutive season have missed 5 out of the last 7 playoffs.


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04-04-2013, 09:27 PM
  #260
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And you know things are terrible when we are comparing ourselves with the Oilers, Islanders and Blue Jackets.

One thing we can be thankfull for is the draft system, that reward bad franchises with the highest picks and the whole parity concept that gives even the bad managed teams a chance to be on the playoff bubble any given season.

Hopefully we'll find ourselves on the bubble once again next year.

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04-05-2013, 12:25 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by iceberg View Post
And you know things are terrible when we are comparing ourselves with the Oilers, Islanders and Blue Jackets.
Out:

C Derrick Brassard
C Jeff Carter
LW Rick Nash
RW Derek Dorsett
D John Moore
D Marc Methot
G Steve Mason

In:

C Artem Anisimov
C Brandon Dubinsky
LW Nick Foligno
RW Blake Comeau
RW Marian Gaborik
D Jack Johnson
D Tim Erixon
G Michael Leighton
G Sergei Bobrovsky


Since the Jack Johnson trade, the Blue Jackets have been geniuses in the trade market. Upgraded all over the place, got younger, and ended up with three (total) 1st Round Picks in the 2013 NHL Entry Draft. Even more impressive that only a few players on their roster (Atkinson, Boll, Calvert) were drafted by Columbus.

Throw everything (relatively young) on the wall and see what sticks. St. Louis Blues first, and now Columbus Blue Jackets. Take notes, Colorado Avalanche.

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04-05-2013, 12:30 AM
  #262
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Except Columbus still doesn't have some of the cornerstones we already have, and they're just starting their rebuild. We're just putting together the final parts of the core and we'll be ready to start making runs under a real coach.

I take Duchene, Landy, EJ, Varly, ROR, PAP, Stastny, Barrie, McGinn and Downie, with Elliott, Siemens, Sgarbossa and Hishon with the monsters and a top 3 pick coming over the bluejackets core any day of the week.

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04-05-2013, 12:40 AM
  #263
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Except Columbus still doesn't have some of the cornerstones we already have, and they're just starting their rebuild. We're just putting together the final parts of the core and we'll be ready to start making runs under a real coach.

I take Duchene, Landy, EJ, Varly, ROR, PAP, Stastny, Barrie, McGinn and Downie, with Elliott, Siemens, Sgarbossa and Hishon with the monsters and a top 3 pick coming over the bluejackets core any day of the week.
I may not agree with you 100%. But it's nice to see at least one Avs fan on this board who doesn't think we are the laughing stock of the NHL and have the worst roster in the league.

With some of the pieces we actually sit on, I'm suprised so few are actually positive about the Avs future.

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04-05-2013, 12:54 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Except Columbus still doesn't have some of the cornerstones we already have, and they're just starting their rebuild. We're just putting together the final parts of the core and we'll be ready to start making runs under a real coach.

I take Duchene, Landy, EJ, Varly, ROR, PAP, Stastny, Barrie, McGinn and Downie, with Elliott, Siemens, Sgarbossa and Hishon with the monsters and a top 3 pick coming over the bluejackets core any day of the week.
Now imagine if John Davidson became President of the Colorado Avalanche and had those "cornerstones" to build around.

The young talent of the Avalanche is undeniable. But surrounded by underachieving veterans with long term contracts, the club is stuck in mediocrity.

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04-05-2013, 12:59 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by RobinDIF View Post
I may not agree with you 100%. But it's nice to see at least one Avs fan on this board who doesn't think we are the laughing stock of the NHL and have the worst roster in the league.

With some of the pieces we actually sit on, I'm suprised so few are actually positive about the Avs future.
I just look at a lineup that could start next season with
X - Duchene - Parenteau
Landeskog - O'Reilly - Downie
McGinn - Stastny - Jones
Bordeleau - Mitchell - Olver/McCleod

X - EJ
Hejda - Barrie
O'Brien - Wilson

Varly

With an AHL team being lead by Sgar, Hishon, Pickard and a Siemens-Elliott pairing, as well as a top 3 pick in this draft coming our way. And a GM who's shown a nack for finding very fruitful small trades to fill out guys around the core, makes it tough not to be optimistic, as long as Sacco is replaced by a capable coach.

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04-05-2013, 04:15 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
I just look at a lineup that could start next season with
X - Duchene - Parenteau
Landeskog - O'Reilly - Downie
McGinn - Stastny - Jones
Bordeleau - Mitchell - Olver/McCleod

X - EJ
Hejda - Barrie
O'Brien - Wilson

Varly

With an AHL team being lead by Sgar, Hishon, Pickard and a Siemens-Elliott pairing, as well as a top 3 pick in this draft coming our way. And a GM who's shown a nack for finding very fruitful small trades to fill out guys around the core, makes it tough not to be optimistic, as long as Sacco is replaced by a capable coach.
I'm just sick of all the whining... Chicago had one playoffround in 10 years. Sometimes a re-build just takes time.

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04-05-2013, 05:35 AM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf
I just look at a lineup that could start next season with
X - Duchene - Parenteau
Landeskog - O'Reilly - Downie
McGinn - Stastny - Jones
Bordeleau - Mitchell - Olver/McCleod

X - EJ
Hejda - Barrie
O'Brien - Wilson

Varly

With an AHL team being lead by Sgar, Hishon, Pickard and a Siemens-Elliott pairing, as well as a top 3 pick in this draft coming our way. And a GM who's shown a nack for finding very fruitful small trades to fill out guys around the core, makes it tough not to be optimistic, as long as Sacco is replaced by a capable coach.
It's hard to get too excited when you post basically the same line-up that is struggling to win games this season.

But, as i said before, we can be glad about the NHL parity. With a little luck, this same team might be in the playoff bubble again next season. Maybe even get in this time, if we are really luck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinDIF View Post
I may not agree with you 100%. But it's nice to see at least one Avs fan on this board who doesn't think we are the laughing stock of the NHL and have the worst roster in the league.

With some of the pieces we actually sit on, I'm suprised so few are actually positive about the Avs future
Unfortunatelly, it's not just Avs fans on this board who thinks the Avs are the laughing stock of the NHL, many people around the NHL also think that. And with good reason.

From the bad asset managment, to the ROR fiasco, and the bad mouthing of many ex-players, and even the bad mouthing of player's dads (LOL!), to the Matt Freaking Carkner fumbling (LOL!). There are plenty of reasons to laugh at our team, unfortunatelly. And i didn't even mention the fact that we are last in the NHL standings.


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Originally Posted by RobinDIF View Post
I'm just sick of all the whining... Chicago had one playoffround in 10 years. Sometimes a re-build just takes time.
And i'm tired of all the losing and all the excuses for failure. Chicago was also a laughbale NHL franchise, like the Avs is now. A rebuild shouldn't take 10 years like Chigaco's, it had a lot to do with BAD MANAGMENT.


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04-05-2013, 05:50 AM
  #268
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It's not just about individuals getting better, it's the team. Imagine, If we had better start for the year, O'Reilly with team etc. Things could be different. You just need to get "groove" going. This season we never had it.

Duchene/PAP overachieved for expectations, but seriously how many else other? Almost everyone else is playing under their abilities. The blame is on Sacco for sure. Most of the players are not playing up to their normal play.

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04-05-2013, 08:57 AM
  #269
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I'm just sick of all the whining... Chicago had one playoffround in 10 years. Sometimes a re-build just takes time.
If we are trying to draw parallels with Chicago, what turned them around was not patience with a re-build it was a 180 degree change in ownership, in the front office, in the culture of the organization and changes in the operating model, relationship with the fans, how the club was marketed and it's commitment to winning.

Under the previous owner fans experienced one of the longest Stanley Cup droughts in the NHL and among the longest in professional sports. At one point they were designated by ESPN as the worst sports franchise and had completely alienated their fan base. Everything started to change for the better when Bill Wirtz passed away and his son Rocky Wirtz took over. He changed everything.

If there are any parallels it would be to comparing the Blackhawks commitment to winning under Bill Wirtz, how the club was operated and its relationship to the fans with how Kroenke operates the Avalanche, it's commitment to winning hockey and it's relationship to the fans. That would be the more interesting parallel and comparison.

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04-05-2013, 09:31 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
I just look at a lineup that could start next season with
X - Duchene - Parenteau
Landeskog - O'Reilly - Downie
McGinn - Stastny - Jones
Bordeleau - Mitchell - Olver/McCleod

X - EJ
Hejda - Barrie
O'Brien - Wilson

Varly
Aside from Barrie replacing O'Byrne, this looks an awful lot like the roster the Avs entered this season with. And are currently placed last in the standings with. Why do you believe next season will yield a significantly different result?

You have some significant players penned in for those X's...?

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04-05-2013, 09:33 AM
  #271
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Aside from Barrie replacing O'Byrne, this looks an awful lot like the roster the Avs entered this season with. And are currently placed last in the standings with. Why do you believe next season will yield a significantly different result?

You have some significant players penned in for those X's...?
They should be significant players if they're on the top line and top pairing.

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04-05-2013, 09:41 AM
  #272
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I'm just sick of all the whining...
When someone disagrees with your positive outlook, does it have to equate to 'whining'? I've been told many times that I'm kind of negative in my postings, and I don't disagree with that. But that's not whining. That's analysis.

This Summer, I posted in here (after Sherman's FA signings) that I felt the Avs had the worst defensive corps in the Western Conference. I was told then that I was wrong, that I was negative, that it would be OK, etc. And I was told that Columbus had a worse D lineup (they don't), that Anaheim had a worse D lineup (they most absolutely don't), that Dallas had a worse D lineup (they don't either, but that turned out to be at least arguable), etc. And what has happened? The Avs have the worst D corps in the WC. That wasn't whining. That was me looking at Sherman's defensive signings and saying "Oh s**t...", and predicting something that, while perhaps not positive in nature, turned out to be wholly true. Yet, I'm still told that I'm negative, the cup is half empty, etc. What's a HFBoards poster to do?

The Avs are dead last in the league. Again. Tanking at the end of the season. Again. Often playing awful hockey. Again. These are facts. This isn't whining.

Quote:
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Chicago had one playoffround in 10 years. Sometimes a re-build just takes time.
True statement. For myself, at the beginning of this process, I looked at the complete rebuild time to be a quality playoff team to be 5 years. Not Cup-contending, but simply a quality playoff team. That is almost certainly not going to happen, so I'm stretching the timeframe to 7 years. But to your point, I certainly don't want to see the Avs do what Toronto has done for decades now - pick up any and every shiny object FA at the expense of building through the draft, being patient with young players, etc., and thus finishing 8-12th place every year.

So your last point is well taken. I confess I find patience in the midst of this process to be challenging.


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04-05-2013, 09:53 AM
  #273
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They should be significant players if they're on the top line and top pairing.
They're going to have to be significant players for the Avs to significantly improve.

Two 1st line UFA players will likely cost $9-12M between them, at a minimum. And please keep in mind, top-end UFAs tend to sign long contracts.

Do you see the Avs' management ponying up that kind of extra money this Summer, especially since they are about $9M under next year's Cap limit, with 2-3 depth forwards they need to get under contract?

And especially since next offseason, the Avs will have to resign Duchene, O'Reilly, Landeskog, Downie, McGinn, Varlamov, and Barrie? I didn't even put Stastny in there, as I suspect he'll be gone.

My feeling is that next season, those X's are going to be filled with Erie guys on offense, and Hunwick/Zanon on defense (or they'll move named guys up to those X's and fill the lower slots), and the Avs will suffer for it. It'll be the season after that where the Avs can perhaps be that quality playoff team we've been waiting for.

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04-05-2013, 10:07 AM
  #274
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They're going to have to be significant players for the Avs to significantly improve.

Two 1st line UFA players will likely cost $9-12M between them, at a minimum. And please keep in mind, top-end UFAs tend to sign long contracts.

Do you see the Avs' management ponying up that kind of extra money this Summer, especially since they are about $9M under next year's Cap limit, with 2-3 depth forwards they need to get under contract?

And especially since next offseason, the Avs will have to resign Duchene, O'Reilly, Landeskog, Downie, McGinn, Varlamov, and Barrie? I didn't even put Stastny in there, as I suspect he'll be gone.

My feeling is that next season, those X's are going to be filled with Erie guys on offense, and Hunwick/Zanon on defense (or they'll move named guys up to those X's and fill the lower slots), and the Avs will suffer for it. It'll be the season after that where the Avs can perhaps be that quality playoff team we've been waiting for.
Until they have a coach that plays the players in their correct roles and stop pulling apart players that work well together, it doesn't matter what moves they make. I hope to go Sacco is gone, as many people will be quite surprised if they bring in a decent coach.

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04-05-2013, 10:19 AM
  #275
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
When someone disagrees with your positive outlook, does it have to equate to 'whining'? I've been told many times that I'm kind of negative in my postings, and I don't disagree with that. But that's not whining. That's analysis.

This Summer, I posted in here (after Sherman's FA signings) that I felt the Avs had the worst defensive corps in the Western Conference. I was told then that I was wrong, that I was negative, that it would be OK, etc. And I was told that Columbus had a worse D lineup (they don't), that Anaheim had a worse D lineup (they most absolutely don't), that Dallas had a worse D lineup (they don't either, but that turned out to be at least arguable), etc. And what has happened? The Avs have the worst D corps in the WC. That wasn't whining. That was me looking at Sherman's defensive signings and saying "Oh s**t...", and predicting something that, while perhaps not positive in nature, turned out to be wholly true. Yet, I'm still told that I'm negative, the cup is half empty, etc. What's a HFBoards poster to do?

The Avs are dead last in the league. Again. Tanking at the end of the season. Again. Often playing awful hockey. Again. These are facts. This isn't whining.



True statement. For myself, at the beginning of this process, I looked at the complete rebuild time to be a quality playoff team to be 5 years. Not Cup-contending, but simply a quality playoff team. That is almost certainly not going to happen, so I'm stretching the timeframe to 7 years. But to your point, I certainly don't want to see the Avs do what Toronto has done for decades now - pick up any and every shiny object FA at the expense of building through the draft, being patient with young players, etc., and thus finishing 8-12th place every year.

So your last point is well taken. I confess I find patience in the midst of this process to be challenging.
Agreed, I don't always agree with your line of thinking, but I think you're pretty much spot on in this post ans I don't consider your criticism as whining. We can't be happy with the state of this team as it is right now.

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