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ATD 2013 Lineup Assassination Thread - Bob Cole Division

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04-05-2013, 10:14 AM
  #226
markrander87
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It is a rare thing in NHL history for two puck-carrying defensemen to play together as a pairing, though maybe that's partly due to their scarcity relative to more defensive guys. You're definitely going to reach a point of diminishing returns somewhere. The question is just where.
Was there any teams with two elite puck rushers who are both very to excellent defensively? It's as if the pair have too much talent.

I mean Kellys record should speak for itself, but Grant was the defensive specialist on his team as well, not to mention was said that he would have won multiple Norris' if such award existing during his time. Did you see the article I found with Grant clearly explaining how he played the position? I couldn't have wrote a more decisive article myself showing how he understands the importance of positional defensive play and covering for his teammates.


Mike Grant played the majority of his career paired with Graham Drinkwater

Drinkwater was known for his:

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He was a rare breed with an ability to function equally well at the defense and forward positions. Brilliant stickhandling, a natural scoring touch and team-permeating enthusiasm characterized Drinkwater's play
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...page=bio&list=

The article also says that both Grant and Drinkwater were physically the biggest members of the team.


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04-05-2013, 01:23 PM
  #227
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Was there any teams with two elite puck rushers who are both very to excellent defensively? It's as if the pair have too much talent.

I mean Kellys record should speak for itself, but Grant was the defensive specialist on his team as well, not to mention was said that he would have won multiple Norris' if such award existing during his time.
I'm not really interested in "virtual Norris" chatter, and I do not consider Grant anything close to excellent defensively on a top pairing at this level. That being said, I had forgotten he played most of his career with Drinkwater, who was mainly known as an offensive guy. This suggests that Grant has experience working with an offensive-minded partner, which definitely helps your cause.

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04-05-2013, 01:48 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I'm not really interested in "virtual Norris" chatter, and I do not consider Grant anything close to excellent defensively on a top pairing at this level. That being said, I had forgotten he played most of his career with Drinkwater, who was mainly known as an offensive guy. This suggests that Grant has experience working with an offensive-minded partner, which definitely helps your cause.
Well thats a positive at least.

For curiosity sakes, what more would you need to be convinced Grant was one of the best defensive defenseman of his time? His LOH, GHL profiles all state he was an excellent defenseman as well that recent article showing how he plays the positioning and the fact that he was the best defenseman and captain of (I think) 3 Cup winning teams?

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04-05-2013, 01:58 PM
  #229
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Well thats a positive at least.

For curiosity sakes, what more would you need to be convinced Grant was one of the best defensive defenseman of his time? His LOH, GHL profiles all state he was an excellent defenseman as well that recent article showing how he plays the positioning and the fact that he was the best defenseman and captain of (I think) 3 Cup winning teams?
I don't think being convinced Grant was one of the best defensive defensemen of his time is the issue. The issue is that "his time" was the late 1890s.

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04-05-2013, 02:11 PM
  #230
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I don't think being convinced Grant was one of the best defensive defensemen of his time is the issue. The issue is that "his time" was the late 1890s.
I can understand that. I was just having a tough time understanding how one of the best defensive defenseman of his time would have an issue pairing with Red Kelly. It was voted upon as the "most puzzling pair of the draft" a couple times.

I think GM's are just looking at Grant as a "puck rushing defenseman" are were not giving any credit to his defensive play as well.

I still don't know what's so puzzling about the pair. Does the understanding of Grant playing the majority of his time with Graham Drinkwater who was an offensive dman change your opinions?

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04-05-2013, 02:41 PM
  #231
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I can understand that. I was just having a tough time understanding how one of the best defensive defenseman of his time would have an issue pairing with Red Kelly. It was voted upon as the "most puzzling pair of the draft" a couple times.

I think GM's are just looking at Grant as a "puck rushing defenseman" are were not giving any credit to his defensive play as well.
I think it's possible to give Grant credit for his defensive play, such as it is, and still consider him weak defensively on a top pairing. I don't consider Grant a #2, at all, but rather a strong #3, and a two-way guy, at that. I don't think he's an ideal partner for Kelly. The fact that he played with Drinkwater helps, but he's still not who I would choose as a partner for Kelly if I was building a team.

That being said, the match isn't that bad. It's a bit like Pronovost - Numminen. Teppo's a good two-way guy who ends up getting stuck guarding for a really aggressive partner, and it's probably not the best use of his talents. These things happen. It is certainly not the "most puzzling" pairing of the draft in my opinion, as it is easily less problematic than Weber - Carlyle, but people often just repeat each other's judgments in those recap threads.

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04-05-2013, 02:57 PM
  #232
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That being said, the match isn't that bad. It's a bit like Pronovost - Numminen. Teppo's a good two-way guy who ends up getting stuck guarding for a really aggressive partner, and it's probably not the best use of his talents. These things happen. It is certainly not the "most puzzling" pairing of the draft in my opinion, as it is easily less problematic than Weber - Carlyle, but people often just repeat each other's judgments in those recap threads.
If anything good comes away for my D after all this, I was able to split them up. Pronovost is on the right side next to Chara, who's an ideal partner for him.

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04-05-2013, 03:28 PM
  #233
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If anything good comes away for my D after all this, I was able to split them up. Pronovost is on the right side next to Chara, who's an ideal partner for him.
Yes, you're right. Although I don't think the Kelly trade was great from a talent perspective, your defensive chemistry is probably better now that it was before, with more offense/defense balance.

Chara - Pronovost and Gerard - Numminen is still a strong defensive core, and the chemistry is good.

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04-05-2013, 11:27 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I think it's possible to give Grant credit for his defensive play, such as it is, and still consider him weak defensively on a top pairing. I don't consider Grant a #2, at all, but rather a strong #3, and a two-way guy, at that. I don't think he's an ideal partner for Kelly. The fact that he played with Drinkwater helps, but he's still not who I would choose as a partner for Kelly if I was building a team.
These blanket statements without any factual evidence or proof are growing old. Look through the roster thread and tell me Grant isn't at least average when it comes to defensive play for a 2nd best defenseman on a top pairing. You are talking as if every team uses their number 1 and number 2 on each top pairing and that is simply incorrect.

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04-05-2013, 11:40 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I think it's possible to give Grant credit for his defensive play, such as it is, and still consider him weak defensively on a top pairing. I don't consider Grant a #2, at all, but rather a strong #3, and a two-way guy, at that. I don't think he's an ideal partner for Kelly. The fact that he played with Drinkwater helps, but he's still not who I would choose as a partner for Kelly if I was building a team.
.
So after all of that, we conclude that Mike Grant is not the ideal partner for Red Kelly...If that's the major flaw of my team then i'm sitting pretty with 4 top 70 selections, and no major flaws.

I encourage voters to vote with their minds and not with their hearts

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04-06-2013, 12:03 AM
  #236
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So after all of that, we conclude that Mike Grant is not the ideal partner for Red Kelly...If that's the major flaw of my team then i'm sitting pretty with 4 top 70 selections, and no major flaws.
I think I would call having the worst goalies in the division a flaw. Ask a Leaf fan how important goaltending is...

On defense, the top-3 are strong, and the bottom 3 are mediocre. At forward, there looks to be a lack of creativity and playmaking. Also, you lack big-time defensive players that you'll need in some situations.

Your PK looks pretty wonky, even before you look at who's in net, and the Mike Keenan/Frank Mahovlich dynamic will be an issue.


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04-06-2013, 02:28 PM
  #237
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I think I would call having the worst goalies in the division a flaw. Ask a Leaf fan how important goaltending is...
My goaltending is overall slightly below average, i'll ask teams like Chicago and Pittsburgh how important that is.


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On defense, the top-3 are strong, and the bottom 3 are mediocre.
As already mentioned Svedberg is a more then capable number 4 and I have him on my bottom pairing with an ideal partner in Hajt.

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At forward, there looks to be a lack of creativity and playmaking. Also, you lack big-time defensive players that you'll need in some situations.
My 3 centers are Ted Kennedy, Duke Keats and Henrik Sedin mix in Rousseau and I have more then enough playmaking to go around. Who again are your top playmakers?

Oh ya factor in Red Kelly on the backend and im set. Defensive players? So because you loaded up on one dimesional "defensive players" thats a bonus? My defensive players are all multi dimensional and can defend as well as score. Kennedy, Rousseau, Keats, Watson, Marleau, Kasper. Please 3/4 of my forwards are known for their defensive play.

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the Mike Keenan/Frank Mahovlich dynamic will be an issue.

Now your just grasping at straws, their is no correlation between Punch Imlach and Mike Keenan, good luck with that theory.


All of my "issues" don't even come close to that 2nd pairing of yours with Gonchar on it.

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04-06-2013, 02:48 PM
  #238
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Now your just grasping at straws, their is no correlation between Punch Imlach and Mike Keenan, good luck with that theory.
You're saying two guys that have a similar coaching style and were both known for making the lives of players they didn't like miserable have no correlation between them whatsoever? Technically, you're right, there is no correlation by the real definition of correlation, but correlation isn't the right word. There are similarities between the two that indicate that Mahovlich may have some of the same issues under Keenan that he did under Punch.

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04-06-2013, 02:52 PM
  #239
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My goaltending is overall slightly below average, i'll ask teams like Chicago and Pittsburgh how important that is.
Pittsburgh had the two best centers in the league though - that would be like an ATD team having both Gretzky and Lemieux - give them the right support players, and you can win with average goaltending.

And Niemi is probably the worst starting goalie to ever win the Cup, but he did it behind the deepest team in the league. (Or at last as he was playing then; he's having something of an actual great season currently).

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My 3 centers are Ted Kennedy, Duke Keats and Henrik Sedin mix in Rousseau and I have more then enough playmaking to go around. Who again are your top playmakers?
I guess Ted Kennedy is a good enough playmaker here; still a bit below average for an ATD top line center, strictly in terms of playmaking. Duke Keats' playmaking isn't anything to write home about though, at least statistically.

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Oh ya factor in Red Kelly on the backend and im set. Defensive players? So because you loaded up on one dimesional "defensive players" thats a bonus? My defensive players are all multi dimensional and can defend as well as score. Kennedy, Rousseau, Keats, Watson, Marleau, Kasper. Please 3/4 of my forwards are known for their defensive play.
I wouldn't be overly pimping out Patrik Marleau's defensive ability if I were you

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Now your just grasping at straws, their is no correlation between Punch Imlach and Mike Keenan, good luck with that theory.
Both big team hardasses who ruled by fear and were hated by a lot of their own players. Keenan wasn't as obsessed with defense as Imlach, but I think he has even more of a rep as being an outright ******* to his players.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 04-06-2013 at 02:57 PM. Reason: "Starting goalie," not "goalie"
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04-06-2013, 03:05 PM
  #240
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My goaltending is overall slightly below average, i'll ask teams like Chicago and Pittsburgh how important that is.
Hainsworth is likely among the bottom 5 starters in this draft - he's in the mix with guys like Harry Lumley and Gump Worsley. That's not slightly below average.

Go ask Chicago. They'll tell you that their goaltending is a big reason for their success, Crawford is having a great season, and Emery is looking like a legit starter again.

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As already mentioned Svedberg is a more then capable number 4 and I have him on my bottom pairing with an ideal partner in Hajt.
Svedberg is essentially a complete mystery. The fact that he didn't dominate the Swedish league should be a huge red flag.

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My 3 centers are Ted Kennedy, Duke Keats and Henrik Sedin mix in Rousseau and I have more then enough playmaking to go around.
Sedin is a legit playmaker. Kennedy is basically a grinder. Keats is more of a goal scorer than playmaker.

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Defensive players? So because you loaded up on one dimesional "defensive players" thats a bonus? My defensive players are all multi dimensional and can defend as well as score. Kennedy, Rousseau, Keats, Watson, Marleau, Kasper. Please 3/4 of my forwards are known for their defensive play.
Every team needs their role-players, and you don't have them. In key defensive situation, you don't have the personnel to be successful.

For starters, you're using two rushing defensemen as you shut-down pair. They are either going to lose a huge chunk of their offensive production, which is their best asset, or they'll be very prone to odd-man rushes. Either way, it's certainly not an ideal situation.

As for the defense of your forwards, there's a big difference between a guy who is "not bad" defensively and a guy who should be killing penalties.

The fact that you need to use Red Kelly as a forward on the PK is very telling.


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04-06-2013, 03:14 PM
  #241
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And Niemi is probably the worst starting goalie to ever win the Cup, but he did it behind the deepest team in the league. (Or at last as he was playing then; he's having something of an actual great season currently).
In an all-time sense, that's fair, but Chicago didn't overcome their goaltending to win. Niemi was pretty good in that play-off run.

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04-06-2013, 03:18 PM
  #242
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These blanket statements without any factual evidence or proof are growing old. Look through the roster thread and tell me Grant isn't at least average when it comes to defensive play for a 2nd best defenseman on a top pairing. You are talking as if every team uses their number 1 and number 2 on each top pairing and that is simply incorrect.
What about the phrase "I don't consider..." do you not understand, mark? I am stating my opinion. It's your job to sell your players. If you want to do the work of going through all the rosters and comparing Grant to all the other second defensemen on top pairings, be my guest.

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04-06-2013, 03:18 PM
  #243
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You're saying two guys that have a similar coaching style and were both known for making the lives of players they didn't like miserable have no correlation between them whatsoever? Technically, you're right, there is no correlation by the real definition of correlation, but correlation isn't the right word. There are similarities between the two that indicate that Mahovlich may have some of the same issues under Keenan that he did under Punch.
may and probably doesnt count in the ATD sorry Billy.

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04-06-2013, 03:21 PM
  #244
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may and probably doesnt count in the ATD sorry Billy.
"May" and "probably" are pretty much all we do here, except when someone reunites actually teammates.

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04-06-2013, 03:21 PM
  #245
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I guess Ted Kennedy is a good enough playmaker here; still a bit below average for an ATD top line center, strictly in terms of playmaking. Duke Keats' playmaking isn't anything to write home about though, at least statistically.

Why did you leave out Henrik?? Duke Keats is my 3rd line Center, if anything my top 3 centers have more then average playmaking


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I wouldn't be overly pimping out Patrik Marleau's defensive ability if I were you
For a 4th line RW? Absolutely I will be, well above average.

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Both big team hardasses who ruled by fear and were hated by a lot of their own players. Keenan wasn't as obsessed with defense as Imlach, but I think he has even more of a rep as being an outright ******* to his players.
And Bingo, they are 2 completely coaches and Imlachs relationship with Mahovlich has no impact on Keenans.

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04-06-2013, 03:23 PM
  #246
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Why did you leave out Henrik?? Duke Keats is my 3rd line Center, if anything my top 3 centers have more then average playmaking
I didn't think Henrik Sedin's playmaking was in question.

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04-06-2013, 03:27 PM
  #247
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Svedberg is essentially a complete mystery. The fact that he didn't dominate the Swedish league should be a huge red flag.
Svedberg is a lot less risky of an option then Gonchar, he's not a mystery..we all know he's terrible defensively.

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Sedin is a legit playmaker. Kennedy is basically a grinder. Keats is more of a goal scorer than playmaker.
Kennedy a grinder Have fun using that ploy if we ever meet in the playoffs.


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Every team needs their role-players, and you don't have them. In key defensive situation, you don't have the personnel to be successful.
Ted Kennedy, Harry Watson, Bobby Roussea, Steve Kasper, Wilf Paiement and Cully wilson bring more then enough intangibles.

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For starters, you're using two rushing defensemen as you shut-down pair. They are either going to lose a huge chunk of their offensive production, which is their best asset, or they'll be very prone to odd-man rushes. Either way, it's certainly not an ideal situation.
That's funny you already mentioned they were above average defensively. Both were number one defenseman who led their teams to multiple stanley cups. Grant playing his years with a 1 dimensional offense dman.

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As for the defense of your forwards, there's a big difference between a guy who is "not bad" defensively and a guy who should be killing penalties.

The fact that you need to use Red Kelly as a forward on the PK is very telling.
Very telling with how big of an assest the number 15 pick in the entire draft is? Absolutely, I want him on the ice as much as possible.

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04-06-2013, 03:28 PM
  #248
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"May" and "probably" are pretty much all we do here, except when someone reunites actually teammates.
Not in terms with saying a player may not get along with Mike Keenan because he didnt get along with Punch Imlach, that's plain ridiculous.

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04-06-2013, 03:30 PM
  #249
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Does anybody have anything else? Perhaps I should move my team to Denver as the air in Cincinnati will impact my team late in the season?

The tiny little faults all of you are trying to magnify clearly show how great my team actually is. Bring it on.

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04-06-2013, 03:33 PM
  #250
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So after all of that, no mention of my 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th line being below average or missing anything as a line.

BUT

Mike Keenan and Frank Mahovlich may not get along... and Svedberg- Hajt is a below average bottom pairing

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