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Perennial Roster Overhauls and Relationship to Postseason Success (Sting's Thread)

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Old
04-05-2013, 11:49 AM
  #51
SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
When only 2 teams out of 30 have made it more than you, what does THAT show?
Not a lot.

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04-05-2013, 11:50 AM
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The one year we missed, was the last day of the season

The Rangers are competing for the cup every April post lockout.
That is a success

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04-05-2013, 11:50 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by CaliDubiZib View Post
The one year we missed, was the last day of the season

The Rangers are competing for the cup every April post lockout.
That is a success
Making the playoffs is equivalent to competing for the Cup?

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04-05-2013, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Not a lot.


I figured nearly every team would, as, you know, more teams make the playoffs than not.

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04-05-2013, 11:51 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Making the playoffs is equivalent to competing for the Cup?
Compared to not making the playoffs, yeah.

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04-05-2013, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
When only 2 teams out of 30 have made it more than you, what does THAT show?
Making the playoffs doesn't mean very much when all but one postseason appearance is as a low seed. Why? Because low seeds almost never win Stanley Cups!

A low seeded playoff team is an average team. More teams make the playoffs than don't. Making the playoffs is not an accomplishment.

And it is amazing to me how people try to hold this team to the same standards as every other team.
That's bull. Even in a salary cap system, this team has a major financial advantage over nearly every team in the league. Rather than use that advantage to achieve success, they have relied on that advantage just to make up for repeated monumental failures at the managerial level. They need that advantage just to keep pace with teams that operate on fixed budgets and clubs that deal with the looming threats of attendance issues, ownership instability, or even relocation.

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04-05-2013, 11:53 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Compared to not making the playoffs, yeah.
Come on you're better than that.

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04-05-2013, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Not a lot.
What a bunch of crap. Go whine to fans of Toronto, Columbus, Winnipeg, NYI, Florida, etc... how only two teams in the entire NHL have been more successful than our NYR in making the playoffs nearly every year, getting to the ECF's, having everyone want to play for you, etc... and that equates to not being successful.

There are tons of franchises that would love to be as "unsuccessful" as we are.

Ridiculous.

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04-05-2013, 11:56 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Making the playoffs doesn't mean very much when all but one postseason appearance is as a low seed. Why? Because low seeds almost never win Stanley Cups!

A low seeded playoff team is an average team. More teams make the playoffs than don't. Making the playoffs is not an accomplishment.

And it is amazing to me how people try to hold this team to the same standards as every other team.
That's bull. Even in a salary cap system, this team has a major financial advantage over nearly every team in the league. Rather than use that advantage to achieve success, they have relied on that advantage just to make up for repeated monumental failures at the managerial level. They need that advantage just to keep pace with teams that operate on fixed budgets and clubs that deal with the looming threats of attendance issues, ownership instability, or even relocation.
And if somone/team does something that is statistically more probable than another person/team, does it really say a lot?

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04-05-2013, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Making the playoffs doesn't mean very much when all but one postseason appearance is as a low seed. Why? Because low seeds almost never win Stanley Cups!
Not a great argument to make when the 6th seed just played the 8th seed and the 8th seed won the Cup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
A low seeded playoff team is an average team. More teams make the playoffs than don't. Making the playoffs is not an accomplishment.
The lockout kind of screws that up. The Rangers went from being a Cup winner to being a losing team (despite making the playoffs) overnight. Also, please tell me a single GM that thinks "making the playoffs is not an accomplishment". That's a ridiculous statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
And it is amazing to me how people try to hold this team to the same standards as every other team.
That's bull. Even in a salary cap system, this team has a major financial advantage over nearly every team in the league. Rather than use that advantage to achieve success, they have relied on that advantage just to make up for repeated monumental failures at the managerial level. They need that advantage just to keep pace with teams that operate on fixed budgets and clubs that deal with the looming threats of attendance issues, ownership instability, or even relocation.
Advantage might apply in the West. Not here. Not with Montreal, Boston, Philadelphia, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, etc...

9 of the 10 lowest spending teams, as of this moment, are in the West. Sole exception is the NYI.

And, again, making the playoffs every year and winning a round or more in 3 out 7 years is successful. Period. It's not as successful as we'd like, but you really can't make an effective argument when only 2 teams have been more successful than you at making the playoffs and NO ONE in the East has been more successful at it.

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04-05-2013, 12:04 PM
  #61
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Can this discussion be moved to a new thread regarding perennial roster overhauls and the relationship to lack of post season success?

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04-05-2013, 12:11 PM
  #62
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Continue here guys

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04-05-2013, 12:15 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
What a bunch of crap. Go whine to fans of Toronto, Columbus, Winnipeg, NYI, Florida, etc... how only two teams in the entire NHL have been more successful than our NYR in making the playoffs nearly every year, getting to the ECF's, having everyone want to play for you, etc... and that equates to not being successful.
I would think those fans would care less about the Rangers. And if you overpay for players, they want to play for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
There are tons of franchises that would love to be as "unsuccessful" as we are.
I would argue there are tons of franchises that are as "unsuccessful" as we are.

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04-05-2013, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I would think those fans would care less about the Rangers. And if you overpay for players, they want to play for you.


I would argue there are tons of franchises that are as "unsuccessful" as we are.
Name 12 and why.

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04-05-2013, 12:32 PM
  #65
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Rangers Mediocrity/Consistency Since The Lockout

I couldn't let this discussion die, partially because I was in the middle of research.

The Rangers have made the playoffs 6 of 7 years since the lockout. As haormuru pointed out, only two teams (Detroit, San Jose) have made the playoffs each of those eight seasons. The probability of making the playoffs all 8 years is about 1.2%. The probability of making it 7 times is about 9.8%.

Here are the leaders in Conference Finals appearances since the lockout:
1. Detroit - 3
T2. Carolina - 2
T2. Buffalo - 2
T2. Anaheim - 2
T2. Pittsburgh - 2
T2. Philadelphia - 2
T2. Chicago - 2
T2. San Jose - 2
T9. N.Y. Rangers - 1
T9. Edmonton - 1
T9. Ottawa - 1
T9. Dallas - 1
T9. Montreal - 1
T9. Boston - 1
T9. Vancouver - 1
T9. Tampa Bay - 1
T9. New Jersey - 1
T9. Los Angeles - 1
T9. Phoenix - 1

And for appearances in the second round of the playoffs:
T1 - Detroit - 5
T1 - San Jose - 5
T3 - Vancouver - 4
T3 - Philadelphia - 4
T5 - N.Y. Rangers - 3
T5 - Anaheim - 3
T5 - Pittsburgh - 3
T5 - Boston - 3
T5 - Washington - 3
T5 - New Jersey - 3
T11 - Carolina - 2
T11 - Buffalo - 2
T11 - Ottawa - 2
T11 - Colorado - 2
T11 - Montreal - 2
T11 - Chicago - 2
T11 - Nashville - 2
T18 - Edmonton - 1
T18 - Dallas - 1
T18 - Tampa Bay - 1
T18 - Phoenix - 1
T18 - Los Angeles - 1
T18 - St. Louis - 1

If the Rangers have been mediocre, so have most everyone else.

Hail Sather.
Hail Renney.
Hail Torts.
Hail Maloney.
Hail Schoenfeld.
Hail Clark.
Hail Gorton.
Hail Jim Ramsey.

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04-05-2013, 12:35 PM
  #66
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I would like to see a ranking of average playoff seed and average playoff games played per year.

Sneaking in as the 7/8 and being ousted in 5-6 games really is not successful to me.

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04-05-2013, 12:37 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
I would like to see a ranking of average playoff seed and average playoff games played per year.

Sneaking in as the 7/8 and being ousted in 5-6 games really is not successful to me.
Again, they've won a playoff round, at least, in 3 of the 7 years that they've made the playoffs. Very few teams have done that (10 total).

They ARE NOT a "mediocre" or "unsuccessful" franchise.

They might be that in the minds of their fans who have higher expectations, but they are a top 10 team since the lockout by nearly any measure.

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04-05-2013, 12:41 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Not a great argument to make when the 6th seed just played the 8th seed and the 8th seed won the Cup.
Yes, let's use that one example as the barometer.

In the last 40 years, there have been TWO Stanley Cup champions that were seeded in the bottom half of their conference: the 1995 New Jersey Devils, and the 2012 Los Angeles Kings.

Is it impossible to win a championship as a low seed? No, but it is HIGHLY unlikely.

Quote:
The lockout kind of screws that up. The Rangers went from being a Cup winner to being a losing team (despite making the playoffs) overnight. Also, please tell me a single GM that thinks "making the playoffs is not an accomplishment". That's a ridiculous statement.
Would just making the playoffs be considered a successful season for the teams that have consistently been among the better teams in the league over the last number of years? Is that good enough for the Red Wings, the Canucks, the Bruins, the Penguins, the Flyers, the Blackhawks, or the Sharks?

What those teams have done over the last number of years, or are in the middle of achieving right now (like the Bruins, who figure to be a contender frequently in the coming years), is sustained success. How many years is it going to take before this team is at that level? How many roster overhauls are needed?

Quote:
Advantage might apply in the West. Not here. Not with Montreal, Boston, Philadelphia, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, etc...

9 of the 10 lowest spending teams, as of this moment, are in the West. Sole exception is the NYI.
Why shouldn't it be an advantage? The two teams that have the biggest advantage in that regard along with the Rangers are the Leafs and Canadiens, and those teams have been poorly run, as well.

That should make it easier for the Rangers, but the Rangers operate in much the same way that those teams do, which is why none of them ever achieve sustained success.

Quote:
And, again, making the playoffs every year and winning a round or more in 3 out 7 years is successful. Period. It's not as successful as we'd like, but you really can't make an effective argument when only 2 teams have been more successful than you at making the playoffs and NO ONE in the East has been more successful at it.
We have a fundamental difference on what we consider success. If you don't have a legit shot to win the Stanley Cup, which as I've already shown, low seeded teams do not, then you aren't achieving any legit success. Just making the playoffs is not success. At best, it says that you aren't awful. It is not an indicator of greatness. Consistent contendership is an indicator of success, AFAIC.

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04-05-2013, 12:57 PM
  #69
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I am with Sting and SBOB here.

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04-05-2013, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Name 12 and why.

There are the teams that have one a Cup and consistently compete year in and year out:

Chicago
Pittsburgh
Detroit

There are the anomaly teams who have had great regular season success and an inexplicable lack-of-success in the playoffs

San Jose
Vancouver
You could make an argument that Washington belongs here.


There are teams who have won Cups but also have missed the playoffs

Boston
Carolina
Anaheim
Los Angeles

There are the middle-of-the-pack teams (teams that have been more or less consistent playoff participants but have never gotten over the hump ):

Philadelphia (1 SCF)
Washington
Rangers (1 ECF)
Ottawa
New Jersey (1 SCF)
Buffalo (2 ECF)
Nashville
Montreal
Phoenix (1 WCF)

There's everyone else

Columbus
Islanders
Maple Leafs
Thrashers/Jets
Florida
Minnesota
St. Louis
Oilers (with a SCF appearance)
Dallas (with a WCF appearance)
Calgary

I don't think making the playoffs in itself is a great success. What I see is a lot of parity. I don't see a whole lot of success with the Rangers contemporaries on my list. And parity doesn't mean success.

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04-05-2013, 01:07 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
There are the teams that have one a Cup and consistently compete year in and year out:

Chicago
Pittsburgh
Detroit
How would you define that? Chicago's been to the second round less than we have.

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04-05-2013, 01:09 PM
  #72
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How would you define that? Chicago's been to the second round less than we have.
You want to move them down with Boston, feel free.

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04-05-2013, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
You want to move them down with Boston, feel free.
I'm not looking to make changes to your list, I'm looking for how you define the parameters.

Even if you exclude Chicago, Pittsburgh has been to the second round as many times the Rangers, and have been past the second round one more time.

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04-05-2013, 01:13 PM
  #74
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In my opinion, making the playoffs != success.

Making the playoffs without winning anything describes mediocrity to me.

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04-05-2013, 01:14 PM
  #75
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In my opinion, making the playoffs != success.

Making the playoffs without winning anything describes mediocrity to me.
Then this league is filled with mediocrity.

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