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EPIHL and NIHL discussion thread

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Old
04-05-2013, 08:32 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
Well it would be pretty stupid to say anything bad about on ice officials when your team is still playing
Is Keefe not playing at the weekend then?

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04-05-2013, 08:55 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Yes but the capacity utilisation of the current infrastructure is well below what it could be. Put competent people in charge of the governing body, proper development and guidance for coaches and officials and so forth. Infrastructure is not an excuse anymore, nations with less rinks and less players than us can produce NHL players but we cannot, so obviously we are doing something wrong.
It'll come as no surprise but, based on my experience of struggling for decent ice time due to competing demands, I completely disagree with your belief that facilities have poor utilisation. Here is the ice schedule for my local ice,

http://83.166.161.30/nic/assets/CURRENT_SCHEDULE.xls

Pretty packed.

Also, in charge of which governing body? All ice sports have their own governing bodies, all ice sports are competing for ice time.

Infrastructure, or lack of, is an entirely valid excuse in a country which is both losing rinks because of neglect due to mis-management and under-funding whilst also trying to share the remaining facilities between so many different users.

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Yes I'm an official based in Reading. I can get to Bracknell, Slough and Basingstoke in less than 30 minutes. I can get to Oxford, Swindon and Guildford in less than an hour. Brixton and Gosport would be pushing it, depending on traffic.
Which is great if you live in the Thames Valley area (I used to live near Fleet so was equally blessed for a while) but the situation in the Thames Valley is, dare I say it, fortuitous, rather than by design. Nor is it typical of the UK, and I believe we are talking about what is good for the sport in the UK as a whole aren't we?

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Hockey takes priority in Swindon. The GM Steve Nell buys the ice time for hockey from the council, he set up the Okanagan Hockey Academy there and basically said **** you to the figure skaters and bought all their ice time. Oh the irony when they were in the local paper complaining the hockey players took their ice... Just shows all it takes is someone with a vision to take the initiative and progress will be made. I am sure OHA will produce many good players over the next few years.
Which may work on a one off basis at a small, council-run rink, but its hardly an option at large, national facilities such as Ice Sheffield and the National Ice Centre, who has centrally secured funding which gives precedence to certain sports over others due to international competitive performance.

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04-05-2013, 09:16 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Yes but the capacity utilisation of the current infrastructure is well below what it could be. Put competent people in charge of the governing body, proper development and guidance for coaches and officials and so forth. Infrastructure is not an excuse anymore, nations with less rinks and less players than us can produce NHL players but we cannot, so obviously we are doing something wrong.
It'll come as no surprise but, based on my experience of struggling for decent ice time due to competing demands, I completely disagree with your belief that facilities have poor utilisation. Here is the ice schedule for my local ice,

http://83.166.161.30/nic/assets/CURRENT_SCHEDULE.xls

Pretty packed.

Also, in charge of which governing body? All ice sports have their own governing bodies, all ice sports are competing for ice time.

Infrastructure, or lack of, is an entirely valid excuse in a country which is both losing rinks because of neglect due to mis-management and under-funding whilst also trying to share the remaining facilities between so many different users.

Quote:
Yes I'm an official based in Reading. I can get to Bracknell, Slough and Basingstoke in less than 30 minutes. I can get to Oxford, Swindon and Guildford in less than an hour. Brixton and Gosport would be pushing it, depending on traffic.
Which is great if you live in the Thames Valley area (I used to live near Fleet so was equally blessed for a while) but the situation in the Thames Valley is, dare I say it, fortuitous, rather than by design. Nor is it typical of the UK, and I believe we are talking about what is good for the sport in the UK as a whole aren't we?

Quote:
Hockey takes priority in Swindon. The GM Steve Nell buys the ice time for hockey from the council, he set up the Okanagan Hockey Academy there and basically said **** you to the figure skaters and bought all their ice time. Oh the irony when they were in the local paper complaining the hockey players took their ice... Just shows all it takes is someone with a vision to take the initiative and progress will be made. I am sure OHA will produce many good players over the next few years.
Which may work on a one off basis at a small, council-run rink, but its hardly an option at large, national facilities such as Ice Sheffield and the National Ice Centre, who have centrally secured funding which gives precedence to certain sports over others due to international competitive performance.

We have struggled to get ice time for hockey in a city which has one of the UK's best supported and oldest league teams playing out of it and which has, debatably, one of the most 'hockey aware' populations of any UK city, with a council who have and do actively fund ice hockey events. Having spoken to rival rec players though (who are at the mercy of various 'couldn't care less' councils and/or the campaign against ice sports, also known as Planet Ice) it seems we are the lucky ones.


Last edited by howeaboutthat: 04-05-2013 at 09:30 AM. Reason: grammar
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04-05-2013, 09:53 AM
  #79
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By "capacity utilisation" I mean making the best possible use of the ice time you do get. With good coaching, suitable drills to improve the players, competitive games against other teams.

That simply doesn't happen.

Competitive games is a major problem, the first example I can pick out is Bracknell U18's. They play a 18 game schedule. Of those games, some of their results were: 13-0, 13-1, 10-0, 20-2, 12-1, all victories. Who is gaining anything from that except padding their stats? It happens at every age level. That certainly is not making best use of the available ice time.

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04-05-2013, 10:14 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
By "capacity utilisation" I mean making the best possible use of the ice time you do get. With good coaching, suitable drills to improve the players, competitive games against other teams.

That simply doesn't happen.
I'm sorry but based on my experience up here, once again, I disagree.

It may be that in the Thames Valley coaches struggle to utilise their ice time effectively but here in Nottingham we have some excellent coaches who, when they can get onto the ice, make full use of the time available.

As for playing competitive games against other teams, its that ice time thing again. As I'm sure you are aware, the generally accepted policy regarding rec hockey teams is that if you arrange a game you're supposed to be able to both host and travel, not an easy task for teams who play in well-utilised rinks. So it becomes all training with perhaps a bit of a scrimmage thrown in at the end. Hardly inspiring stuff long-term, nor the stuff to develop a legacy of home-grown talent from.

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04-05-2013, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by howeaboutthat View Post
I'm sorry but based on my experience up here, once again, I disagree.

It may be that in the Thames Valley coaches struggle to utilise their ice time effectively but here in Nottingham we have some excellent coaches who, when they can get onto the ice, make full use of the time available.

As for playing competitive games against other teams, its that ice time thing again. As I'm sure you are aware, the generally accepted policy regarding rec hockey teams is that if you arrange a game you're supposed to be able to both host and travel, not an easy task for teams who play in well-utilised rinks. So it becomes all training with perhaps a bit of a scrimmage thrown in at the end. Hardly inspiring stuff long-term, nor the stuff to develop a legacy of home-grown talent from.
Nottingham is a good setup, some junior clubs are very well run BUT others aren't, that's why the games aren't competitive. The best players all go to the best coached clubs. When I played U18's in Swindon, half of our team were not actually from Swindon, they all came to play for us because the coaching was better. We absolutely walked the league only dropping one point. If the coaching at other clubs was better, their good players would not leave and their other players get better so all the games are competitive, which benefits everyone. The senior club also need to get more involved with the junior setup. Guildford U18's are coached by one of the Flames import players Milos Melicherik, while other teams are coached by someone's dad who has played NIHL level hockey at best. Which team is benefitting more?

I don't mean to offend, but rec hockey is irrelevant to this discussion.

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04-05-2013, 10:54 AM
  #82
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..don't mean to offend, but rec hockey is irrelevant to this discussion...
Absolute rubbish and perhaps, given the source, a glaring example of why ice hockey struggles at the grassroots level in the UK and therefore at the higher levels.

Grassroots participation is essential in order to breed familiarity with a sport. For the UK's dominant sport, soccer, the grassroots is nice and cheap, dads kicking a ball around with their kids in the park. In counties where hockey is more widespread that grassroots is parents and kids playing street hockey, pond hockey or pick-up games, what over here would be called a rec scrimmage. Rec hockey is, for various reasons, not least beaucratic ones, the cheapest way to play hockey and it often serves as an 'in' for families. Many guys on my rec team have children who either play or they intend to play once they are old enough.

Promotion of grassroots is essential to build any sport, even more so though when it is unfamiliar and a potentially expensive sport to participate in. The fact an (I assume registered?) on-ice official of the sport so quickly disregards this offhand is, as I touched upon at the start, perhaps indicative of the issues which penetrate to the core of the sport in the UK.

No amount of fiddling about with import levels or improved provision of ice time is likely to result in increased quality and quantity of British players whilst these sorts of attitudes prevail and unfortunately you are far from the only one in UK hockey with them.


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04-05-2013, 11:00 AM
  #83
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What? So you're saying an on ice officials view of rec hockey having no bearing on junior development whatsoever (because it doesn't) is the reason why our grass roots development is bad? nobody cares what I think, I show up, officiate games to the best of my ability and go home. I don't represent or affect the views of the governing body in any way.

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04-05-2013, 11:11 AM
  #84
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What? So you're saying an on ice officials view of rec hockey having no bearing on junior development whatsoever (because it doesn't) is the reason why our grass roots development is bad?
Laugh all you want, your attempt to belittle my point rather than debate it only compounds the point.

Junior hockey and rec hockey aren't mutually exclusive. If parents get involved in hockey it can help develop a culture of hockey. It ceases to be an expensive hobby that parents sign their kids up for, which unless said child is very good, ends at 16/18 and becomes a familar, inclusive, part of family life.

Coming from a state where hockey is everywhere this is how high participation (and therefore quality at the top end, the goal of this discussions believe) is maintained. If you want this little old hockey backwater to develop into something more then it is an attitude that needs to be encouraged, not scoffed at.

Your views may not have a direct bearing but I'd argue that your views are, at least in part, a product of the hockey culture in the UK, a culture in which you participate, and therefore indicative of prevailing attitudes. Indeed, as I said, you are far from the only person involved in UK hockey who I've heard such comments from.


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04-05-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by howeaboutthat View Post
Laugh all you want, your attempt to belittle my point rather than debate it only compounds the point.

Junior hockey and rec hockey aren't mutually exclusive. If parents get involved in hockey it can help develop a culture of hockey. It ceases to be an expensive hobby that parents sign their kids up for, which unless said child is very good, ends at 16/18 and becomes a familar, inclusive, part of family life.

Coming from a state where hockey is everywhere this is how high participation (and therefore quality at the top end, the goal of this discussions believe) is maintained. If you want this little old hockey backwater to develop into something more then it is an attitude that needs to be encouraged, not scoffed at.
Any changes to rec hockey would have minimal effect on junior development, if any at all. Rec hockey is already easily accessible anyway, it is by far the largest segment of the playing population.

You're completely missing the point, I accept we don't have the infrastructure or hockey culture, we will never have it, it is laughable to believe we will ever have it. The most important goal should be producing GOOD players by making the best of what we are given, which is not happening right now, quality not quantity. Changes to system at junior club level achieve this, not making rec hockey cheaper for the wobblers who start playing when they are adults.

Again I stress all my views are exactly that. My own. They do not represent or influence those of the governing body in any way.

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04-05-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
You're completely missing the point, I accept we don't have the infrastructure or hockey culture, we will never have it, it is laughable to believe we will ever have it. The most important goal should be producing GOOD players by making the best of what we are given, which is not happening right now, quality not quantity. Changes to system at junior club level achieve this, not making rec hockey cheaper for the wobblers who start playing when they are adults.

Again I stress all my views are exactly that. My own. They do not represent those of the governing body.
I'm not missing the point at all, I have a differing opinion.

You somehow believe we can produce better from a small pool, which generally goes against the principles every sport I know of, who use increased participation as the impetus for better quality at the top. Whereas I believe increasing grassroots participation is needed to produce better 'product', the triangle with a large base thing I mentioned a while back.

You scoff at adult wobbles who play rec hockey as if they have little impact on junior development but this just compounds what I see as your glaring nievity with regards wider partcipation at all levels being a driver for increased quality overall.

You are right, the UK will never have the infrastructure of somewhere like my home state of Michigan, but the principles behind the promotion of the sport should be the same, encourage particpation at all levels. Parents ultimately pay thr bills. If they enjoy a sport its more likely they won't mind paying (the not inconsiderable) costs of their children doing it. The more children that are encouraged to participate, the larger the potential talent pool will enter that junior system you keep mentioning, more chance of better players coming out the other end.

Its a tried and tested process.

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04-05-2013, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by howeaboutthat View Post
I'm not missing the point at all, I have a differing opinion.

You somehow believe we can produce better from a small pool, which generally goes against the principles every sport I know of, who use increased participation as the impetus for better quality at the top. Whereas I believe increasing grassroots participation is needed to produce better 'product', the triangle with a large base thing I mentioned a while back.

You scoff at adult wobbles who play rec hockey as if they have little impact on junior development but this just compounds what I see as your glaring nievity with regards wider partcipation at all levels being a driver for increased quality overall.

You are right, the UK will never have the infrastructure of somewhere like my home state of Michigan, but the principles behind the promotion of the sport should be the same, encourage particpation at all levels. Parents ultimately pay thr bills. If they enjoy a sport its more likely they won't mind paying (the not inconsiderable) costs of their children doing it. The more children that are encouraged to participate, the larger the potential talent pool will enter that junior system you keep mentioning, more chance of better players coming out the other end.

Its a tried and tested process.
No I did not say that, I said there is huge room for improvement within the system. I view the problems with the current system as being a greater hindrance to increasing the standard of hockey than the size of the player pool.

Yes more kids can participate and that's all well and good, but they are just joining a broken system, and better players will not be produced. These extra kids will just turn out average like the rest and it does nothing to improve the standard.

I've said it a million times, countries with LESS RINKS and LESS PLAYERS than us can produce NHL quality players but we cannot, clearly we are doing something wrong, the system is broken, the coaching is not as good as it could be.

I am not saying don't encourage extra participation, that would be stupid, I am saying fixing what is broken is a much bigger issue.

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04-06-2013, 05:00 PM
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Manchester Phoenix will play Guildford Flames tomorrow in the EPIHL playoff final

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04-07-2013, 12:38 AM
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Dundee Tigers v Paisley Pirates in the SNL Final tomorrow at the Fife Ice Arena
Have to admit I was hoping for a Dundee Tigers v Dundee Comets final just because of the intensity.
Anybody hear anything about the Scottish Cup. Last I heard was Edinburgh SNL Caps v Dundee Comets but nothing lately


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04-07-2013, 05:23 PM
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Manchester Phoenix are the EPIHL playoff champions

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04-08-2013, 08:07 AM
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I watched the third 3rd period and OT period in the final between Nottingham and Belfast yesterday. Was a good game with a decent atmosphere.

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04-08-2013, 08:26 AM
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I watched the third 3rd period and OT period in the final between Nottingham and Belfast yesterday. Was a good game with a decent atmosphere.
Wrong thread

Is the football season over yet? Chelmsford play Invicta on Sunday in the NIHL playoff semi finals

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04-08-2013, 10:38 AM
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Is the football season over yet? Chelmsford play Invicta on Sunday in the NIHL playoff semi finals
Does Solway have NIHL sewn up yet? In the North
How are the promotion. demotion battles going in NIHL?

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04-08-2013, 10:46 AM
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Does Solway have NIHL sewn up yet? In the North
How are the promotion. demotion battles going in NIHL?
Yes the playoff seedings are already determined in NIHL North. Solway will play Blackburn and Billingham will play Sutton.

Oxford won NIHL 2 south yesterday, I think they intend to take promotion. There are talks that no team will be demoted from NIHL 1 south as there is uncertainty over the future of Romford. If they promote Oxford and keep Solent & Gosport, there will be 10 teams which is favourable, and 9 if no Romford.

In the north I think Nottingham will be going up and Trafford coming down.

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04-08-2013, 11:15 AM
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And Dundee Tigers win SNL play-offs

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04-10-2013, 02:24 PM
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the NIHL living up to its nickname of "Nightclub Ice Hockey League"

http://www.billinghamstars.co.uk/201...ay-off-finals/

I think that's a complete joke

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04-11-2013, 08:08 AM
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I read that and it's completely stupid.

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04-12-2013, 08:13 AM
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Bees to get new owners.

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04-15-2013, 08:31 AM
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Forgot to mention Stevie Lyle to Swindon Wildcats was confirmed a few days ago

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/s..._Lyle_signing/

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04-17-2013, 11:19 AM
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I wonder if Lyle will break the 'good goalie turned significantly average goalie' curse.

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