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All Encompassing Tortorella Thread Pt. II

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Old
04-05-2013, 08:59 AM
  #851
mullichicken25
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Originally Posted by MadHookUp View Post

It just doesn't end there though.
1.) Constant line mixing(Who else does this with success?) Every team in the league, including the penguins last game, mix up they're line that are not playing well. This is the most exagerated complaint i've seen about Torts. When has he broken up a line thats been worth keeping together?

2.) Refuses to practice the Power Play link? i've seen/heard several reports talking about them working on the powerplay---although i agree the PP is awful and the blame lies on the coach

3.) Playing favorites(Down by two goals, Prust and Boyle playing 10 minutes in the 3rd) He plays the guys that are playing well...i dont have a problem with a coach playing every game for a W

4.) Powerplay personnel - Mitchell, Boyle(except 2 night ago!), Girardi... Lack of McDonagh I have plenty of issues with our powerplay, but its certainly not a McDonaugh away from success and as much as we all love McD, he still has a lot to prove in the offensive zone

5.) No cycling whatsoever. I miss the days of Nedved/Hlavac/Dvorak. All 3 forwards are behind the goal line. It seems the only time we generate offense is when the defense has to pinch down and get in scoring position. Which leads me to my next point...You're aware of how many even strength goals the team scored last year doing exactly what you just ranted about, correct?

6.) Fear of making a mistake and being benched/scratched. How do you expect guys like Gilroy, Hamrlik, Moore, Bickel, and Eminger to step up like that when if it doesn't work out, they will probably be a healthy scratch the next game. Because if they dont buy into the system they'll be a healthy scratch anyway. If they're not going to do what's asked of them, or they can't do it, then they shouldnt be on the ice.

7.) Complete lack of freedom and creativity Nash is the definition of freedom and creativity and i have yet ot see him be reprimanded for it. Hell, they brought Zucc in for his creativity. I believe you are describing a personel issue rather than a system/coaching issue

8.) A number of the players seem to hate him Care to elaborate? or are you just making a baseless assumption here?

9.) He loves sticking with things proven not to work. Gabby on LW. Mitchell logging over 60 minutes of power play time last season and didn't score a single goal. I agree these two examples, although I cant think of many others
see the bolded above

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04-05-2013, 09:06 AM
  #852
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Now that we have players that fit the system. I think it will make Torts look good. I hate torts but I think it will work.

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04-05-2013, 09:14 AM
  #853
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Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
Indeed. But people have their favorites. And no matter how badly they might be playing, when one of their favorites or some shiny new toy gets benched, people are going to get mad at Torts.
no, people get mad when brian mother****ing boyle got everyones ice time after a little mistake and that there clearly is a list of players who are not allowed in torts's dog house


Last edited by Dactyl: 04-05-2013 at 09:22 AM.
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04-05-2013, 09:15 AM
  #854
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Now that we have players that fit the system. I think it will make Torts look good. I hate torts but I think it will work.
You mean players who work hard and come to play every night? Shame on the coach for those demands.

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04-05-2013, 10:11 AM
  #855
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Originally Posted by blooblood View Post
no, people get mad when brian mother****ing boyle got everyones ice time after a little mistake and that there clearly is a list of players who are not allowed in torts's dog house
you know that Brian Boyle was a healthy scratch for a little while right?

and that Brad Richards, a Torts "untouchable", has spent a good deal of time in the dog house this season?

but that doesnt fit the little narative your trying to write here, does it?

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04-05-2013, 10:33 AM
  #856
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Tort's criticism of Boyle has been ongoing this year. He's called him out on a number of occasions, benched him, scratched him. I agree that their is a legit critique of this coach that can be made. I've seen some good ones here. They are very few and far between though.

My biggest gripe's come down to how unprepared the team has looked. This team did not bring the same overall compete level as last year. That is the biggest part of the problem, imo. That problem manifested itself most clearly in two players: Richie and Gabby. It would be hard for me to say when I've witnessed two higher paid, more unmotivated professional athletes.

But does all the blame fall squarely on the coach? A good part of it, yes. All of it, no.

Based on last years result, Tort's get's another crack at it. The organization has supported him by shipping out an obvious malcontent and bringing in players that more closely fit the kind of hockey Tort's likes to coach. Smash mouth hockey can be very effective. We'll see.

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04-05-2013, 10:42 AM
  #857
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Originally Posted by Beardacus View Post
I'm glad Marian Garbage is gone. He was a disgusting lazy bum on the ice and after finding out about the arguing and problems that were going on between him and Torts now it is very clear.

That is pretty crappy that he would do that to the other players on the team who give 100% every time they are out there. You think McD & Girardi who give everything they have when they are on the ice want to lose a play off spot because a spoiled Euro bum wants to play primadonna and do nothing? You think Staal wants to rush back from his injured eye to help the team when there are players who purposefully sabotage the team winning?

**** that bum I am glad he is gone. Next move Richards needs to wake up and get his play back and maybe we can get something going.
You have a right to your opinion, good, bad or otherwise.

Only request is next time, don't hold back, tell us how you REALLY feel.

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04-05-2013, 10:51 AM
  #858
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Brian Boyle has a game that is MUCH better suited for a winger. Hopefully, that's where he plays from now on and still takes some draws.

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04-05-2013, 10:52 AM
  #859
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
I think the answer is that only one team can win and at the point of the conference finals, its a game of bounces and luck to a degree. You don't need a total strategy change every time you fail to win the cup. 100+ points and game 6 in the ECF is a great finish. If a team does that with anything like consistency, they'll get the bounces eventually and they'll advance to the next round.
In abstract theory up to a point I'm inclined to agree with you on most of this.
But in this specific case, the actual bottom line is different.

We did not battle competitively in NJ because we fought so ferociously in prior rounds. We had zippo energy vs the Devs. ZIPPO, ZILCH, NADA BUPKUS. That is not 2 teams on equal terms and games are decided on one fortunate development.

Not if we are honest about that, we can say, ok, bernmeister is right, we need to add more talent, we should rank the team in proper high regard but not make it more than it is; and second, no less important, we need ask if the Torts system is the best management/application of player resources? I say no. Too many players exhausted, playing hurt, etc. --- and again, conditioning is not the answer.

We can't be ALL speed, ALL strength, etc.
But we need to note how speed supported by strength and skill seems to be found in leading teams.

A better system would better exploit Callahan + Hagelin, and nurture, not stifle, Miller and esp. Kreider.

Win or lose, I will be grateful when Torts is gone, the sooner the better. Then we can properly hope the Rangers, with help from Gordie Clark's picking, can be molded into a dominant team, at least for the short term.

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04-05-2013, 11:10 AM
  #860
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
Tort's criticism of Boyle has been ongoing this year. He's called him out on a number of occasions, benched him, scratched him. I agree that their is a legit critique of this coach that can be made. I've seen some good ones here. They are very few and far between though.

My biggest gripe's come down to how unprepared the team has looked. This team did not bring the same overall compete level as last year. That is the biggest part of the problem, imo. That problem manifested itself most clearly in two players: Richie and Gabby. It would be hard for me to say when I've witnessed two higher paid, more unmotivated professional athletes.

But does all the blame fall squarely on the coach? A good part of it, yes. All of it, no.

Based on last years result, Tort's get's another crack at it. The organization has supported him by shipping out an obvious malcontent and bringing in players that more closely fit the kind of hockey Tort's likes to coach. Smash mouth hockey can be very effective. We'll see.
Your post is well stated and the 'see both sides' part of me likes how you look at things. But I have wanted him gone since his first season here. I felt he has been bad since year one and my local ECHL team generally looks better coached and more fundamentally sound. They even know where the front of the net is in the offensive zone.

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04-05-2013, 12:14 PM
  #861
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
...we need ask if the Torts system is the best management/application of player resources? I say no. Too many players exhausted, playing hurt, etc. --- and again, conditioning is not the answer.
You made this point earlier about the playoffs - that the Rangers were beat up last year and dealing with injuries (implying that it was because of the system)...

Have you not watched the playoffs before? I'd understand if not, since the Rangers haven't really had a deep run in a while... But battling through injuries are a fact of life at that point of the year for almost every single playoff team unless they have had incredible luck with injuries. Players battle through them, or teams deal with filling the roster holes and keep playing. To blame this on the system is pretty far off... its just a part of the beast and the grind of the playoffs.

Now, were our top 2 d pairings absolutely overworked? Sure, I could see that. But that was in part because the team lacked the depth needed there. Torts didn't have a reliable 3rd pair. If Staal gets back before the playoffs this year, I would bet you don't see Torts riding his top pairings quite as hard -- he'll still ride them, but I'd imagine he has much more faith in Stralman/Moore than Stralman/Bickel, or ewwww Eminger/Hamrlik.

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04-05-2013, 12:26 PM
  #862
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the torts system is a state of mind. its not really a system.

torts does his thing. hes consistent to a fault (rigid). he governs thru intimidation, fear and yelling (watch him on the bench when he goes all red faced postal guy). hes an emotional hot head ( stick swinger) and hes prone to making the same silly mistakes (his in game decisions and line changes) over and over. his snarky attitude ( press conferences) and arrogance(always assigns blame and call out his players) is well documented.

if hes winning, hes like bobby knight was. if he starts to lose, the whole world will hate on him. hes at a crossroads right now with his "new" team. i wish him well, i really do. because if he succeeds, that means this organizations moves forward and wins. im all over that. the recent moves have torts written all over them. lets see what he can do now with a group of players that seem to fit perfectly within his "system".

having said that, i still say the same thing i have always said. torts has benefited from having one of the top goaltenders in the world play for his team since hes been here. hank has arguably been the sole reason that torts has enjoyed what little success he has. last year was the best year for torts as coach and he got recognition for it but lets not forget his goalie won the vez too.

with out henrik lundqvist, torts is just an average coach.

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04-05-2013, 12:28 PM
  #863
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you can talk about torts' system all you want, but the 1 thing he does, the one thing i love, is he holds players accountable.

young. old. highly paid, under paid. if you play well, you play. if you don't you don't.


i love that about him, i really do.

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04-05-2013, 12:30 PM
  #864
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
I've asked this in three different threads now and still no answer.

What players did Torts ruin? Who was good before they came to him, then came and suffered because of his coaching? Prust got far better, Gaborik put up two of the best seasons of his career, Nash is just a hair under PPG right now, Callahan continues to improve, Stepan is looking seriously improved this year, McD came into the NHL and became a first pairing D man quickly...

Everyone keeps saying that Torts and his system are going to ruin the new guys. What is this based on?
Making an exception to enter this thread to make these two posts. I know you weren't hoping for an answer from a Torts "apologist/defender" because it would actually force the people spreading this lie to back up what they say... But they haven't - and they can't - so they won't; and will just continue to ignore you. Here is something from earlier in the thread (debunking this myth):

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Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
Really? News to me. Please, enlighten us - who exactly hasn't been able to score under this system that did previously elsewhere? What player came here from another team, played under Torts system, and has not met expectations? Or alternatively, who has left us under Torts system and gone on to explode offensively?

- Nash is having the best season ppg-wise of his career.
- Gabby, 2 40-goal seasons.
- Richie, while he wasn't great last year, did fine and about on par for his career despite a slow start.
- Fedotenko carried over a similar ppg from Pitt to us. And is doing worse this year with a run and gun system in the Flyers, and the coach that people here are for some mind boggling reason enamored with - Laviolette.
- Dubinsky is just as mediocre this year with CBJ as he was with us last year.
- Anisimov is the same story. But either way, he's still developing as a player...
- Prust actually improved his offense when he came to NYR and played in Torts' system. And has carried over a similar ppg to MTL.
- Prospal, during the short time he had to play under Torts' system had quite possibly his best ppg rate of his career.
- Christensen had his best ppg of his career playing for Torts. His production fell off a cliff after leaving NYR.
- Wolski saw a drop in his ppg when he came to NYR. But when he left, his production suffered further even though he was getting more TOI than he was here.


The only players that come close to fitting this storyline are Asham, Pyatt, Powe, Halpern. But none of them are exactly offensive powerhouses or at the pinnacle of their careers. And their ppg may well just be thrown off by a small sample size this year.

- Then you have John Malkin Mitchell. He has double the ppg this year as he did with the Rangers. But guess what? He's also getting almost double the ice time he did with us. I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you! More ice time means more production per game!?! And if you discount his hot start, even with more ice time he's about back on his ppg pace with the Rangers last year. The last 20 games he has 4 goals and 3 assists.

This has just become the accepted wisdom around here and is a complete load of crap.
Based on all of that, it would seem that the conventional wisdom spread around here about Torts stiffling offense is actually completely wrong - and the opposite might in fact be true. You mean to tell me that playing a good defensive game, a good neutral zone game, and a hard forecheck can actually produce... GASP offense!?!

No... Can't be... I mean, after all, that is exactly what Torts says! And we all know how much that guy sucks.

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04-05-2013, 01:33 PM
  #865
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Give me a break. Tortorella's system is as simplistic as it gets. Its one based more on motivation.

These new guys had more motivation than anybody coming to a new team. You think they had to learn some elaborate system? And you think Tortorella benches people only if they deviate from it? Thats one of the biggest BS theories on these boards.
It's based on collapsing down low...often times you'll see all 5 rangers in one small space in front of the net....this is not conducive to creating odd man rushes

And when we are forechecking often times we have 3 fwds in back of the net...this is not conducive to scoring goals

There seems to be a worry in the players not to mess up...zuccarello admitted it himself and I'm sure krieder is nervous out there...

Torts has dismissed good players on multiple occasions and I don't think any good true cup contending team should play a game that is not based on puck possession

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04-05-2013, 02:02 PM
  #866
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And when we are forechecking often times we have 3 fwds in back of the net...this is not conducive to scoring goals
The 2011-2012 New York Rangers and their 182 even strength goals disagree with you

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04-05-2013, 02:18 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
see the bolded above
Youare correct in your comments. Torts had to say this about coaching the offense:
Quote:
“Sure. I mean, (with) you guys it just seems to take on a life of its own that we think defense, defense, defense. Every team needs to play defense. If you’re going to win, every team needs to play defense. So we don’t hinder the offense by playing defense. Defense doesn’t start in your end zone. Defense starts when you don’t have the puck. Usually, that could be 180-feet down the ice. That’s when your forechecking takes over to get the puck. So the big part of a coach’s responsibility is to get out of the way of the creativity, because you can’t teach that. That’s a skill, that’s seeing – you can’t coach that. But we certainly have to bring into our concept how we play away from the puck. And playing away from the puck isn’t playing in your end zone, it’s playing away when you don’t have it. And that happens in a lot of different areas of the ice.”

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04-05-2013, 03:05 PM
  #868
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
the torts system is a state of mind. its not really a system.

torts does his thing. hes consistent to a fault (rigid). he governs thru intimidation, fear and yelling (watch him on the bench when he goes all red faced postal guy). hes an emotional hot head ( stick swinger) and hes prone to making the same silly mistakes (his in game decisions and line changes) over and over. his snarky attitude ( press conferences) and arrogance(always assigns blame and call out his players) is well documented.

if hes winning, hes like bobby knight was. if he starts to lose, the whole world will hate on him. hes at a crossroads right now with his "new" team. i wish him well, i really do. because if he succeeds, that means this organizations moves forward and wins. im all over that. the recent moves have torts written all over them. lets see what he can do now with a group of players that seem to fit perfectly within his "system".

having said that, i still say the same thing i have always said. torts has benefited from having one of the top goaltenders in the world play for his team since hes been here. hank has arguably been the sole reason that torts has enjoyed what little success he has. last year was the best year for torts as coach and he got recognition for it but lets not forget his goalie won the vez too.

with out henrik lundqvist, torts is just an average coach.
Agreed. Though, I feel without Lundqvist he is nowhere near an average coach... I think he's not coaching in the NHL at all, in fact.

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04-05-2013, 04:34 PM
  #869
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I gotta say Torts' tenure her has had extreme highs and lows, but you can't say the team hasn't been competitive. If we win a cup with him then all the face palm worthy crap that has happened will be forgotten.

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04-05-2013, 04:35 PM
  #870
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Brian Boyle has a game that is MUCH better suited for a winger. Hopefully, that's where he plays from now on and still takes some draws.
He was actually using his size to cover the puck with speed to the net last game. Multiple times.

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04-05-2013, 06:10 PM
  #871
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Originally Posted by Laces out Dan View Post
Your post is well stated and the 'see both sides' part of me likes how you look at things. But I have wanted him gone since his first season here. I felt he has been bad since year one and my local ECHL team generally looks better coached and more fundamentally sound. They even know where the front of the net is in the offensive zone.
I'd say if there is one thing that you can criticize Tort's for, and the one thing he would probably agree with is that he over coaches his players. Too many Practice sessions, tape sessions and x's and o's. It can be stultifying. He's got to do a better job of loosening it up and relaxing his players. But that's as likely to happen as me waking up to find a bag of gold coins next to the newspaper in the drive way.

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04-05-2013, 06:22 PM
  #872
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I'm glad Marian Garbage is gone. He was a disgusting lazy bum on the ice and after finding out about the arguing and problems that were going on between him and Torts now it is very clear.

That is pretty crappy that he would do that to the other players on the team who give 100% every time they are out there. You think McD & Girardi who give everything they have when they are on the ice want to lose a play off spot because a spoiled Euro bum wants to play primadonna and do nothing? You think Staal wants to rush back from his injured eye to help the team when there are players who purposefully sabotage the team winning?

**** that bum I am glad he is gone. Next move Richards needs to wake up and get his play back and maybe we can get something going.
lol.

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04-06-2013, 04:20 AM
  #873
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Ok, who let Torts coach the new guys???

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04-06-2013, 04:54 AM
  #874
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
I'd say if there is one thing that you can criticize Tort's for, and the one thing he would probably agree with is that he over coaches his players. Too many Practice sessions, tape sessions and x's and o's. It can be stultifying. He's got to do a better job of loosening it up and relaxing his players. But that's as likely to happen as me waking up to find a bag of gold coins next to the newspaper in the drive way.
These guys are multi-million dollar pros, so I don't mind him over-drilling... if he was always drilling the right things. But certain things - the PP, lack of a bodies in front of the net in the offensive zone - drive me insane. There is an old saying by Confucius, "When you know a thing, to recognize that you know it; and when you do not know a thing, to recognize that you do not know it - that is wisdom."

My God's honest opinion is, Torts could be an ideal coach for this team. If he recognized the things he does not know and his weaknesses, acknowledged them to himself, and addressed them. Our coaches are clearly not offensive geniuses. So... admit it and bring in an assistant who is. Scout. Find a guy in the AHL, ECHL or wherever who really knows how to run offense. Let him and Sullivan work the front and back ends, Torts manages the whole thing, and I think we'd actually have a perfectly solid coaching staff.

Tortorella's inability to recognize things - in game and off ice - are a weakness, and his seeming inability to realize his own deficiencies hurts the team. I say "seeming" because I'm not a mind reader and don't assume what anyone thinks. But when certain problems exist season after season, things do seem a certain way.

That's my two cents

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04-06-2013, 05:05 AM
  #875
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Originally Posted by KingWantsCup View Post
I gotta say Torts' tenure her has had extreme highs and lows, but you can't say the team hasn't been competitive. If we win a cup with him then all the face palm worthy crap that has happened will be forgotten.
Of course Torts shouldn't be trashed if he wins a cup.

But we are 8-9 in the East, and we should be a contender. We have a ton of assets from the net and out and many has been hand picked by Torts.

Hank was wonderful last season, but besides a few weeks before and after the WC, the team looked very avg.

Where are the results?

And don't bring up the lack of talent card. Torts employs a system that requires 80% of his wingers to be board monsters. He always put a straight jacket on talent. And he can't work with anyone who doesn't have perfect attitude. Good luck trying to fit 12 talented forwards with perfect attitude, a ton of skill and size under a cap.

He has to find away to put a team on the ice that can like even remotely can compete with like a Ottawa minus Karlsson and Spezza or a Montreal.

So far the other coaches in the East just have done a lot better job than Torts. He is easily the weakest link for this team.

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