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2013 Ducks toughness thread (with updates)

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Old
04-05-2013, 02:04 PM
  #376
Pepper
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Originally Posted by TheJoeMan View Post
I would like to see those facts. I can't recall one game this year where the Ducks played a team with a true heavyweight or at least had one in the lineup. When has there been an occasion this season when we needed someone to send a message? Every fight has been by middleweigts because they are the only ones who can play. Staubitz would be fine if he could actually do something with the puck.
Actually you're right. Opponents haven't really dressed heavyweights against us this season and western teams actually don't have many heavyweights. Bolig, Reaver, Kassian, Biznasty, McGrattan are the only heavyweights that have gotten NHL icetime this season.

Still, Belesky is not the type of tough guys we play against. He's just not good enough. Staubitz, Souray and Allen are the toughest guys we have, all are better fighters than Belesky.

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04-05-2013, 02:14 PM
  #377
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Anyone that compares this years team to 06-07 in terms of toughness and hits is mistaken. In this case, numbers lie.

They should redefine hits to include whether or not the player actually felt the hit or not... or had any effect on the play.

I believe the stats on hits has gotten extremely diluted over the last few years, and also varies greatly from arena to arena.

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04-05-2013, 02:16 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by douglast5 View Post
Apparently there wasn't any injuries to the 06/07 team because of the tough guys and cogliano's shows how weak the team is.
Cogliano also lost his teeth due to a high stick. That isn't something you typically fight other players for, and if it was you certainly wouldn't be trying to send a message in a close game against the best team in the league. I guess I don't understand how him taking a high stick to the face has anything to do with toughness. Not only that, but Cogs didn't even miss a shift. He handled it like a pro.

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04-05-2013, 02:21 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by snowave View Post
Anyone that compares this years team to 06-07 in terms of toughness and hits is mistaken. In this case, numbers lie.

They should redefine hits to include whether or not the player actually felt the hit or not... or had any effect on the play.

I believe the stats on hits has gotten extremely diluted over the last few years, and also varies greatly from arena to arena.
The stats on hits hasn't been diluted at all. A hit in 2006-2007 counted as a hit now, and vice versa. The stat itself has just never been a good gauge for toughness or physical play, and trying to throw out some arbitrary guideline for what a "real" hit is isn't going to make the stat any more credible.

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04-05-2013, 02:23 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by douglast5 View Post
Not sure if people missed it, but this team hits just as much as the 06/07 team that won the cup.
This is a classic case of unsustainable argument.

You can keep staring at stats all you want but NOBODY can make a reasonable argument for this team being as physical as the 07 team.

07 team wasn't just physical, it was plain mean & nasty.

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04-05-2013, 02:25 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
How is that relevant?
I will tell you how.

This team once used to be known for ''dont mess around our guys or you will get payback much harder'' type. But now watching guy like Bollig smiling at cameras after ruthless action - its just something too hard for me to accept. There are still need for players who police the ice and unfortunately Ducks dont have them. I'm talking about somebody on team watching our backs, not counting our hits per game.

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04-05-2013, 02:32 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
The stats on hits hasn't been diluted at all.

I've watched enough hockey in the last 20 years and looked at some of the stats, and they are becoming harder and harder to justify. Not just hits, but shots on goal, etc.. as well. Don't know why, but the bar has changed on these things.


A hit in 2006-2007 counted as a hit now, and vice versa.


The stat itself has just never been a good gauge for toughness or physical play, This I agree with.


and trying to throw out some arbitrary guideline for what a "real" hit is isn't going to make the stat any more credible.

it was more or less a joke... but really, some of the stats, especially for hits I have noticed this year for the Ducks (and their opponents) have been rediculous.



I love the color Magneta. Makes me feel tough.

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04-05-2013, 02:39 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by 5minsforfighting View Post
I will tell you how.

This team once used to be known for ''dont mess around our guys or you will get payback much harder'' type. But now watching guy like Bollig smiling at cameras after ruthless action - its just something too hard for me to accept. There are still need for players who police the ice and unfortunately Ducks dont have them. I'm talking about somebody on team watching our backs, not counting our hits per game.
Bollig is an idiot. Even Chicago fans were pointing that out, and facepalming. You see him smiling at the camera after a ruthless action. I see him with a blank look on his face after he was stupid enough to try to lift Cogliano's stick, not realizing he shoots left.

That just wasn't an incident that I see as having any relevance in this discussion. Being a tougher team doesn't change the results, or the response. There was under five minutes left in a one goal game, and really, this was just a missed call that should have put Chicago on the penalty kill for the remainder of the game.

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04-05-2013, 03:09 PM
  #384
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There's definitely been a fair share of shots to RPG this season.... Perry took that head shot by Stoner couple months ago by Stoner on Minnesota...

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04-05-2013, 03:35 PM
  #385
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We're obviously talking about two different kinds of hits here. There's the registered stat that simply means separating a man from the puck using your body and just plain running a dude over. With the way the refs are calling our games we don't need a lot of the latter, especially with our PK.


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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Actually you're right. Opponents haven't really dressed heavyweights against us this season and western teams actually don't have many heavyweights. Bolig, Reaver, Kassian, Biznasty, McGrattan are the only heavyweights that have gotten NHL icetime this season.

Still, Belesky is not the type of tough guys we play against. He's just not good enough. Staubitz, Souray and Allen are the toughest guys we have, all are better fighters than Belesky.
Belesky hasn't been beaten badly in any of his fights and on top of that he's been a solid two-way player. We haven't needed a sheriff-type player at all this season. Sure we'd all like one because it's entertaining. But I'm more entertained by a winning hockey team. If we could have both like we did in 06-07 great, but it's absolutely not necessary.

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04-05-2013, 03:39 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
This is a classic case of unsustainable argument.

You can keep staring at stats all you want but NOBODY can make a reasonable argument for this team being as physical as the 07 team.

07 team wasn't just physical, it was plain mean & nasty.
spot on, The line of May and Thornton was abusive.

Additionally the Pahlson line may not have hit very often but they grinded the hell out of you in both ends of the ice. They wore you out physically every second you were on the ice.

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04-05-2013, 04:20 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by snowave View Post

I love the color Magneta. Makes me feel tough.
Magenta is not a manly color. If you continue to insist on using it, we will be forced to send Dirk out to teach you to respect the rest of us. He will make the 06/07 Ducks look like pansies. You don't want to go there.

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04-05-2013, 05:49 PM
  #388
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If only hospitals would have enforcers instead of doctors.

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04-05-2013, 06:12 PM
  #389
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Oh how I miss forwards like Moen, Thronton, May, Parros, etc. Those were the days. Now we have a bunch of small soft guys. This team will get abused by a team like the Kings who rolls out King, Nolan, Clifford, Lewis, Fraser, Penner every single night...they'll just wear us down with their size and physicality.

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04-05-2013, 06:20 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by TheJoeMan View Post
Belesky hasn't been beaten badly in any of his fights and on top of that he's been a solid two-way player. We haven't needed a sheriff-type player at all this season. Sure we'd all like one because it's entertaining. But I'm more entertained by a winning hockey team. If we could have both like we did in 06-07 great, but it's absolutely not necessary.
That's EXACTLY the problem. When you defend our toughness by saying Belesky hasn't been beaten badly, it highlights the problem.

Belesky can hang on and throw an occasional punch but he's not a deterrent, he's not a tough guy, he's just a player who can defend himself.

Your claim that all current tough guys are like Belesky is just 100% wrong.

And a huge part of 07 SC winning team was the toughness, it was the part that set them apart from others. It's not like "yeah it was a great team AND they were tough", it was a great team (partly) BECAUSE they were tough and mean.

You people seem to think toughness is some sort of weird sideshow of the game when it actually is a huge part of the game.

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04-06-2013, 01:05 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Bollig is an idiot. Even Chicago fans were pointing that out, and facepalming. You see him smiling at the camera after a ruthless action. I see him with a blank look on his face after he was stupid enough to try to lift Cogliano's stick, not realizing he shoots left.

That just wasn't an incident that I see as having any relevance in this discussion. Being a tougher team doesn't change the results, or the response. There was under five minutes left in a one goal game, and really, this was just a missed call that should have put Chicago on the penalty kill for the remainder of the game.
Okay, Bollig is an idiot but idiots need to answer for their actions. You dont let them get away with that stupid stuff when actually our players can get hurt really bad.

And how about last night? Roussel took a late run at Perry and even announcers were eager to see some response there. We lost the game in front of the own crowd and didnt even send a single message at the end....

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04-06-2013, 01:22 PM
  #392
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Okay, Bollig is an idiot but idiots need to answer for their actions. You dont let them get away with that stupid stuff when actually our players can get hurt really bad.

And how about last night? Roussel took a late run at Perry and even announcers were eager to see some response there. We lost the game in front of the own crowd and didnt even send a single message at the end....
Just face it guys.. our coach doesn't like all the extra fighting. He doesnt believe in sending a message, Or wearing down the opposing players with size.. our coach is an offense first coache.. Which is why big skilled teams will always have their way with us.. If they play this pus*** as*** style against the queens, Than the fourth line of the kings will have their way with us..Not even close..To many soft players on this team... but thats just how BB teams have always been.. Pure finesse but no bite!! Just get used to it and stop arguing about it.

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04-06-2013, 02:37 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by 5minsforfighting View Post
Okay, Bollig is an idiot but idiots need to answer for their actions. You dont let them get away with that stupid stuff when actually our players can get hurt really bad.

And how about last night? Roussel took a late run at Perry and even announcers were eager to see some response there. We lost the game in front of the own crowd and didnt even send a single message at the end....
because when beleskey lightly pushed him and he went over he ended up with 4 minutes. hard to police when your the only one taking calls.

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04-06-2013, 02:55 PM
  #394
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because when beleskey lightly pushed him and he went over he ended up with 4 minutes. hard to police when your the only one taking calls.
Already average about 4 pk's a game, I would hate to see any more.

Thats a good point though, any time to Ducks give any retaliation they get the penalties so yes guys have their way with Anaheim, because if the Ducks do anything the other team gets power plays.




And what message was there to send last night? It wasn't a tooth and nail battle with hard checking. The team played like idiots in the first and went early, Lehtonen shut the door after that. Not to mention any time they touched a Dallas player to possibly send a message he dove to the ice and drew a penalty.

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04-06-2013, 03:23 PM
  #395
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Ohh boy, I have a feeling there is something completely wrong with these last two posts above...

P.S. maybe its just generation, sorry...

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04-06-2013, 03:38 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
That's EXACTLY the problem. When you defend our toughness by saying Belesky hasn't been beaten badly, it highlights the problem.

Belesky can hang on and throw an occasional punch but he's not a deterrent, he's not a tough guy, he's just a player who can defend himself.

Your claim that all current tough guys are like Belesky is just 100% wrong.

And a huge part of 07 SC winning team was the toughness, it was the part that set them apart from others. It's not like "yeah it was a great team AND they were tough", it was a great team (partly) BECAUSE they were tough and mean.

You people seem to think toughness is some sort of weird sideshow of the game when it actually is a huge part of the game.
Deterrent from who? That's my point. The few fighters in the West are guys like Brown, Tootoo and Konopka. Guys that are Belesky's size. But aside from that when have we played a team that challenged us physically and beat us this year? We've only been beaten nights when we made mistakes and weren't moving our feet. Look at last night, easily outplayed the Stars but a combination of stupid mistakes, goal posts and a goalie who stood on his head lead to us losing. Dallas didn't wear is down or intimidate us.

The comparisons to the 06-07 team needs to stop. That was a different team, a different coach just a different time. That was how that group of players needed to play. This group doesn't. Clearly. If we were in the middle of the pack fighting for a playoff spot I might agree with you. But we're one of the best teams and it's because of the way we play and the players we have. I think that's what has been holding this team back the last few years is them trying to emulate the 06-07 team. They're doing pretty fine being the team they are right now.

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04-06-2013, 04:22 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by 5minsforfighting View Post
Ohh boy, I have a feeling there is something completely wrong with these last two posts above...

P.S. maybe its just generation, sorry...
must be. i see a tough and resilient team. they push to come back if they are down. they take sticks to the face and come back. they hit, they cycle and battle to win. the people complaining that they don't fight enough are redundant and , in my opinion, ignorant.

i like teams that win which this team has excelled at. i don't mind fighting but i enjoy hitting much more and this team does plenty of that. you play a game that allows you to win, be it fast with skill, cycle or overt toughness.

you guys point out 5 times a day how this team is soft, yet you want them to play a game that doesn't give them the best chance to win. you want us to trade away a winning formula to get goonish players that fight and are borderline dirty when we already get screwed on calls most nights. it makes no sense to me, but it must be because im old or young or whatever you think i am.

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04-06-2013, 04:31 PM
  #398
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Ignorance is thinking you can either have a tough team that fights and hits, or you can have a team that wins... You must not watch any kings games... I watch EVERY game of theirs and nobody takes runs at their players... If anyone is touched at all they are a marked man for a season let alone the game... Kings have a great product right now hence the 40 straight sellout crowds...


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04-06-2013, 05:01 PM
  #399
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Deterrent from who? That's my point. The few fighters in the West are guys like Brown, Tootoo and Konopka. Guys that are Belesky's size. But aside from that when have we played a team that challenged us physically and beat us this year? We've only been beaten nights when we made mistakes and weren't moving our feet. Look at last night, easily outplayed the Stars but a combination of stupid mistakes, goal posts and a goalie who stood on his head lead to us losing. Dallas didn't wear is down or intimidate us.

The comparisons to the 06-07 team needs to stop. That was a different team, a different coach just a different time. That was how that group of players needed to play. This group doesn't. Clearly. If we were in the middle of the pack fighting for a playoff spot I might agree with you. But we're one of the best teams and it's because of the way we play and the players we have. I think that's what has been holding this team back the last few years is them trying to emulate the 06-07 team. They're doing pretty fine being the team they are right now.
This analysis is spot on. Especially the bolded at the end. Some people around here are like baseball fans who hate that their team is built around pitching, speed, and defense. It's boring to them even if the team is winning. They would rather lose 8-6 games and then complain their pitching and defense let them down again.

If any of you saw BB's interview after the game last night he made a very telling comment about the team needed to not mouth off at the refs. He said something to the effect that the team has had that reputation for a while. The guy who coached in the east and couldn't find Anaheim with a map knew we whined to the refs constantly. More than likely that played into how other teams played against us. Push us around a little, throw in a face wash and watch us self explode into bad penalties and poor play. And that's exactly the way some here want this team to continue playing.

The success this team has had is due in no small part to having gotten away from that type of game. Kudos to BB for building a winner by fixing what was wrong.

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04-06-2013, 05:18 PM
  #400
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This analysis is spot on. Especially the bolded at the end. Some people around here are like baseball fans who hate that their team is built around pitching, speed, and defense. It's boring to them even if the team is winning. They would rather lose 8-6 games and then complain their pitching and defense let them down again.

If any of you saw BB's interview after the game last night he made a very telling comment about the team needed to not mouth off at the refs. He said something to the effect that the team has had that reputation for a while. The guy who coached in the east and couldn't find Anaheim with a map knew we whined to the refs constantly. More than likely that played into how other teams played against us. Push us around a little, throw in a face wash and watch us self explode into bad penalties and poor play. And that's exactly the way some here want this team to continue playing
The success this team has had is due in no small part to having gotten away from that type of game. Kudos to BB for building a winner by fixing what was wrong.
Again a mindless 07 comparison...

The mouthing off to the refs is one of the traits of our teams "attitude" or swagger as you kids would call it that is now dying..... And I again call the 07 comparison bs because this team has carried an attitude for over a decade now, and in that decade there have been more positive seasons than bad ones..

Ohh and heaven forbid if this was a losing team because it would be un-watchable because of the lack of grit

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