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2013 NHL Entry Draft Talk II

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Old
04-05-2013, 03:35 PM
  #26
Tiranis
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
If a player were both better and less enigmatic than some of those players listed, then they certain wouldn't be available to us at ~25th overall.
I disagree. I think Jensen is better than a whole bunch of guys drafted ahead of him. Gaunce is no worse than Girgensons or Faksa. Not all GMs are very good and some of them make some very dubious decisions.

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04-05-2013, 03:42 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I disagree. I think Jensen is better than a whole bunch of guys drafted ahead of him. Gaunce is no worse than Girgensons or Faksa. Not all GMs are very good and some of them make some very dubious decisions.
What are some prospects you think we have a chance at drafting better than guys like Mantha/Gauthier?

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04-05-2013, 03:46 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
What are some prospects you think we have a chance at drafting better than guys like Mantha/Gauthier?
I think Zykov, Domi and Petan are all better prospects partly because they're less of a gamble. I think Lazar is better even though he's ranked lower. Hell, I like Horvat better than those two.

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04-05-2013, 03:53 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I think Zykov, Domi and Petan are all better prospects partly because they're less of a gamble. I think Lazar better even though he's ranked lower. Hell, I like Horvat better than those two.
I think Domi and Lazar are less likely to make it to us than Mantha or Gauthier. I think Gauthier is going to be a stud, but he'd be better suited to a more defensive system. Mantha though I'd be ecstatic if we got.

I don't see how Petan isn't a gamble, though. Certainly not less of a gamble than Mantha, imo.

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04-05-2013, 03:53 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
That was what I meant, the Wheat Kings we're supposed to be playoff contenders, but didn't make it and Pulocks play was part of it.

Probably should've expanded on that.
Brandon is terrible, I don't think they were expected to be a playoff team. They are in transition this year.
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
What are some prospects you think we have a chance at drafting better than guys like Mantha/Gauthier?
I don't like Gautheir's offensive upside at all. People try and compare him to Couturier...look what Couturier produced at his same age. I think Gauthier's top end is the 3rd line.

Mantha scares the crap out of me, and I'd rather some other team take the chance.

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04-05-2013, 03:56 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think Domi and Lazar are less likely to make it to us than Mantha or Gauthier. I think Gauthier is going to be a stud, but he'd be better suited to a more defensive system. Mantha though I'd be ecstatic if we got.

I don't see how Petan isn't a gamble, though. Certainly not less of a gamble than Mantha, imo.
Petan goes full out every shift, every game. Mantha plays maybe 2 shifts, gets his points and that's it. Not to mention being a very early birthday so he could've even been a 2012 draftee if he were born a few days early. Maybe he becomes a great player but Canucks are not the team that should be taking that risk.

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04-05-2013, 04:03 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Petan goes full out every shift, every game. Mantha plays maybe 2 shifts, gets his points and that's it. Not to mention being a very early birthday so he could've even been a 2012 draftee if he were born a few days early. Maybe he becomes a great player but Canucks are not the team that should be taking that risk.
Going full out every shift doesn't mean you're risk free. Even someone like Rocco Grimaldi is still far from a lock to become a regular NHLer.

To me, if someone is 6'4 and has a nose for the net like Mantha, I have a hard time seeing him not making the NHL as a top-6er, even if he is a streaky player.

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04-05-2013, 04:17 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think Domi and Lazar are less likely to make it to us than Mantha or Gauthier. I think Gauthier is going to be a stud, but he'd be better suited to a more defensive system. Mantha though I'd be ecstatic if we got.

I don't see how Petan isn't a gamble, though. Certainly not less of a gamble than Mantha, imo.
If we get one of Domi, Lazar, Mantha, Gauthier or Petan, I'd be happy.

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Old
04-05-2013, 04:19 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Going full out every shift doesn't mean you're risk free. Even someone like Rocco Grimaldi is still far from a lock to become a regular NHLer.

To me, if someone is 6'4 and has a nose for the net like Mantha, I have a hard time seeing him not making the NHL as a top-6er, even if he is a streaky player.
Petan is much better than Grimaldi, not to mention much bigger. With Mantha it's not about being streaky, it's about him not giving a **** or working hard. He floats around, doesn't go to tough areas, doesn't play defense, etc. Mantha tends to score in all the ways you can score in the Q but can't at higher levels. That's a big problem to me.

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04-05-2013, 04:23 PM
  #35
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Here's the list of the top 20 players that _should_be_ gone in the top 20. Does anyone disagree? Please point out the ones that you think should fall and why:


MacKinnon
Jones
Drouin
Barkov
Monahan

Lindholm
Nurse
Nichushkin
Ristolainen
Wennberg

Shinkaruk
Zadorov
Erne
Pulock
Lazar

Zykov
Horvat
Hägg
Morrissey
Petan


Which leaves:


Mantha
Domi
Gauthier
Rychel
Lehkonen
Klimchuk
Fucale
Hartman
Compher
Mueller
Burakovsky
De La Rose
Carrier
Dickinson

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Old
04-05-2013, 04:26 PM
  #36
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I think Mantha goes Top 20, Petan doesn't. I think Gauthier is also more likely to go Top 20 than Horvat. Somebody will bite on the size of those two (wouldn't surprise me if it's the Flames).

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04-05-2013, 04:31 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Petan is much better than Grimaldi, not to mention much bigger. With Mantha it's not about being streaky, it's about him not giving a **** or working hard. He floats around, doesn't go to tough areas, doesn't play defense, etc. Mantha tends to score in all the ways you can score in the Q but can't at higher levels. That's a big problem to me.
You can learn to improve your defensive game. Most draftees do spend time improving their defensive game before coming to the NHL. You can't learn size. I'm not sure why that makes him any more of a gamble.

Both have issues, and both have high upside. The cons are why they might fall to us. I don't see how one clearly has an advantage over the other.

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04-05-2013, 04:32 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
You can learn to improve your defensive game. Most draftees do spend time improving their defensive game before coming to the NHL. You can't learn size. I'm not sure why that makes him any more of a gamble.
Well, if you ignore everything else I said, it's no wonder you're not sure...

Quote:
With Mantha it's not about being streaky, it's about him not giving a **** or working hard. He floats around, doesn't go to tough areas, etc. Mantha tends to score in all the ways you can score in the Q but can't at higher levels. That's a big problem to me.

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Old
04-05-2013, 04:35 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I think Mantha goes Top 20, Petan doesn't. I think Gauthier is also more likely to go Top 20 than Horvat. Somebody will bite on the size of those two (wouldn't surprise me if it's the Flames).
I should have been more clear. I know Petan won't go top20, and others will. I'm looking for those that should, based on our own evaluation, go in the top20. I know Mantha will likely get picked in the teens, but he shouldn't be. And perhaps Petan should. Is that clearer?

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04-05-2013, 04:37 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Petan goes full out every shift, every game. Mantha plays maybe 2 shifts, gets his points and that's it. Not to mention being a very early birthday so he could've even been a 2012 draftee if he were born a few days early. Maybe he becomes a great player but Canucks are not the team that should be taking that risk.
im pretty sure early birthday picks are more likely to be successful, not less, arent they?

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04-05-2013, 04:39 PM
  #41
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im pretty sure early birthday picks are more likely to be successful, not less, arent they?
I think that applies to being born in January, no? I remember reading something about that. Edit: Here's the article about that: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle1462192/ BUT there have been studies since then and proved that claim wrong: http://contexts.org/articles/fall-20...-big-kid-bias/

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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I should have been more clear. I know Petan won't go top20, and others will. I'm looking for those that should, based on our own evaluation, go in the top20. I know Mantha will likely get picked in the teens, but he shouldn't be. And perhaps Petan should. Is that clearer?
Yeah, sorry. That makes way more sense. I think your list is pretty thorough in that case.

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04-05-2013, 04:43 PM
  #42
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For the people that have watched these guys, who would you take if both Lazar and Domi are available? I love what Domi brings and I feel Lazar will go before we pick, but I'd still have hard time picking between them.

For me I'd be happy with Lazar, Domi or Petan.

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04-05-2013, 04:44 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Well, if you ignore everything else I said, it's no wonder you're not sure...


I did miss your part about how he scores, I think you might have ninja-edited that part.

Yes, he should use his size better in trying to win puck-possession battles. He's stated that in a couple of interviews I've read as well, and I believe he will improve in that aspect. It's kind of hard to judge a player's work-ethic without knowing them(and I'll admit I don't know what kind of work-ethic he has).

As to how he scores, could you be more specific on what you think won't translate to the NHL level?

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04-05-2013, 04:52 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Here's the list of the top 20 players that _should_be_ gone in the top 20. Does anyone disagree? Please point out the ones that you think should fall and why:
Trying to predict who might fall is fairly hard to do. I'll put the players in 3 groups.

1) Tiny remote chance they make it to us, and if they do, there's no excuse not to take them:

Nichushkin
Ristolainen
Zadorov

2) Players who are unlikely to fall to us, but might, and will probably warrant our strongest consideration:

Lazar
Mantha
Morrissey
Domi
Gauthier

3) Players who would be good value picks assuming no one falls:

Zykov
Petan
Hagg
Rychel

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04-05-2013, 04:54 PM
  #45
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From the limited amount I've seen him play, Mantha = less talented Okposo. Those types of prospects scare me.

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04-05-2013, 04:58 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
That was what I meant, the Wheat Kings we're supposed to be playoff contenders, but didn't make it and Pulocks play was part of it.

Probably should've expanded on that.
In what world? How does losing your top 4 scorers from the previous season, 5 of their top 6 forwards, make the Wheat Kings playoff contenders? Several WHL reporters said in October that the Wheat Kings would be hard pressed to make the playoffs unless they played stingy defense and have solid goaltending. They allowed the most goals in their conference by 25 goals, 2nd in the league for GA. This team was no solid bet for the playoffs.

Pulock may not have eclipsed his stats previously, but to fault him as a reason why the Wheat Kings didn't make the playoffs, i think is grossly unfair. Are we going to criticize Morgan Reilly as well for failing to bring his team to the playoffs?

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04-05-2013, 04:59 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Didn't like Hartman before, watched him once in the playoffs and I still don't like him. Purely looking at what he's doing compared to other guys in our range, 3 points in 4 games on a team that scored 24 goals is really poor. Just not a fan of a guy that size playing that style.

I'm still really high on Zykov. I think he has all the right qualities to succeed and his skating has been improving as the season has gone along. 6'1", 215lbs guy that has the Russian skill and an amazing shot but plays tough, battles in the corners, goes all out every shift and covers all three zones well.

Last I checked Max Domi was in between 20-30 on all lists so that's a guy I'm also interested in.
I agree with this.

Was never really a fan of Hartman.

I like Zykov though. For me it is down to him and McChosen unless anyone falls.

Edit: Also add Burakovsky to that list, would love to get him, among others like maybe Mueller.

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04-05-2013, 05:04 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I think Zykov, Domi and Petan are all better prospects partly because they're less of a gamble. I think Lazar is better even though he's ranked lower. Hell, I like Horvat better than those two.
I think Petan is definetly a gamble.

I'll take Zykov and Domi over him probably, but not a big fan of Horvat for whatever reason, I don't think he will bring enough offense at the next level to be more than a 3rd liner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Here's the list of the top 20 players that _should_be_ gone in the top 20. Does anyone disagree? Please point out the ones that you think should fall and why:


MacKinnon
Jones
Drouin
Barkov
Monahan

Lindholm
Nurse
Nichushkin
Ristolainen
Wennberg

Shinkaruk
Zadorov
Erne
Pulock
Lazar

Zykov
Horvat
Hägg
Morrissey
Petan


Which leaves:


Mantha
Domi
Gauthier
Rychel
Lehkonen
Klimchuk
Fucale
Hartman
Compher
Mueller
Burakovsky
De La Rose
Carrier
Dickinson
I think Petan will fall and Mantha will rise.

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Old
04-05-2013, 05:20 PM
  #49
arsmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Here's the list of the top 20 players that _should_be_ gone in the top 20. Does anyone disagree? Please point out the ones that you think should fall and why:


MacKinnon
Jones
Drouin
Barkov
Monahan

Lindholm
Nurse
Nichushkin
Ristolainen
Wennberg

Shinkaruk
Zadorov
Erne
Pulock
Lazar

Zykov
Horvat
Hägg
Morrissey
Petan


Which leaves:


Mantha
Domi
Gauthier
Rychel
Lehkonen
Klimchuk
Fucale
Hartman
Compher
Mueller
Burakovsky
De La Rose
Carrier
Dickinson
I'd swap Domi and Petan in your listings.

Probably drop Hagg out.

I think you have 3 guys in your 2nd group that to me aren't locks to go there - Nicushkin, Wennberg, and Ristolainen are not top 10 locks, I could see at least one getting into the 20's...maybe not with the amount of teams with multiple picks.

Otherwise I think you're top 20 is pretty good (other than Tiranis' suggestion to have Gauthier there instead of Horvat). Makes sense though, if any of those guys falls to us, it's a pretty safe no brainer (or at the very least teams should be calling to trade up, you'd think).

I also hope the bolded are picked before we draft...maybe not Domi, but again, I'm probably biased against him by name association He's a talented player though, definite Marty St Louis caliber skillset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundface View Post
For the people that have watched these guys, who would you take if both Lazar and Domi are available? I love what Domi brings and I feel Lazar will go before we pick, but I'd still have hard time picking between them.

For me I'd be happy with Lazar, Domi or Petan.
I like Lazar, but I'm pretty biased here, I've liked him for 3.5 years since the Canada winter games.

Domi and Petan have higher upside, but I like the package you get from Lazar...more of a sure thing, with decently high upside as well.

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Old
04-05-2013, 05:24 PM
  #50
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I'll be shocked if Nichushkin doesn't go Top 20. Shocked. 5 goals, 6 points in 12 KHL playoff games. Sky high potential. That would be worse than Tarasenko going 15th overall.

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