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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM (Part II)

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04-05-2013, 05:23 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
I really don't know how anyone can say he is not underachieving.

Outside of PAP/Duchene/ROR, I'd say everyone is underachieving. The Avs are basically missing Landeskog, Johnson, McGinn, Stastny, and Varly, given what they are capable of and how they are playing.
I have said this a million times. I expect much more out of him. If people want EJ to be a #1, which I believe he has the tools to be, then he needs to drastically improve. I am criticizing because my expectations are an actual top pairing d. Not the top d on a ****** d-core. This "well he is playing a lot better than the rest of the guys" is a terrible argument. He better be playing better than Zanon, SOB and Hunwick.

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04-05-2013, 05:37 PM
  #327
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I'm done with this argument. Good players rise to the top. He is a part of a bad defensive group. He SHOULD make them better. Good players make players around them better. He isn't a rookie anymore, we shouldn't need to shelter him.

EJ plays much too passive right now and he is a step behind in decision making in the defensive zone. That isn't even touching the offensive black hole he has become.

On the other side of the coin EJ makes great passes. Tape to tape, long passes or short passes, they are always good. He is really good on the boards and obviously he can skate the puck at will.

I am disappointed in him, because he has so much talent and potential.
In fairness, has he not made his defensive partners better? Hunwick was by no means a top 6 defenceman before this season. Now he looks pretty respectable playing 21 minutes a night. I would think it would take a Weber/Karlsson/Chara/ type defenceman to be able to play Norris calibre hockey with a terrible partner, but even that is hard to say since they all have great partners. Johnson is obviously not Norris calibre, but it doesn't mean he isn't doing alright given the situation.

Its like 66 percent of his game is there. I would guess that almost everyone's complaints with him come from the other team's blue line and in? Minus the odd gaffe on a breakout or something, he's done almost everything you would expect from him from the goal line to the far blue line. Then once he hits that blueline it's like his brain shut downs, and everything takes extra time to process. I think this is what Sherman needs to address. If Johnson has to do minimal thinking in the offensive zone, i.e has an offensive partner, I think people will be pretty pleased with him.

Yes, it is sad that our "stud" needs some assistance, but I think there is only a handful of defencemen who wouldn't need a compliment to the poor part of their game.

I mentioned it before, but Sherman needs to find someone who can actually coach him. There is 0 help available to him. By this I mean there is no one in the organization (players, ex-players, coaches, advisors,etc) who were productive defencemen in the NHL. I don't care if it is Sergei effin Gonchar, but bring someone in who can at least help him grow his game in the offensive zone.

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Originally Posted by bohlmeister View Post
I have said this a million times. I expect much more out of him. If people want EJ to be a #1, which I believe he has the tools to be, then he needs to drastically improve. I am criticizing because my expectations are an actual top pairing d. Not the top d on a ****** d-core. This "well he is playing a lot better than the rest of the guys" is a terrible argument. He better be playing better than Zanon, SOB and Hunwick.
I agree that is a terrible argument. I'd say he is underachieving unless he is playing 24 minutes against the top line, and chipping ~30 points over a whole season.

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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
The other player who's been underachieving somewhat (like you say) is Landeskog. He hasn't been poor by any stretch, but does he look any better than he did last season? I openly wonder whether the head injury is holding him back in some way. He and McGinn have been decent, but I expected better of both of them.

PAP's been terrific. I'm not sure he's played even two-three subpar games this season.
Yeah Landeskog definitely isn't doing what it was that made him amazing last season. There is just something missing. If it the head like you mentioned, could you not use the same excuse for EJ?

On the subject of Sherman (and PAP), if Sherman can pull another signing out like this in the summer, it'll go a long way to helping the club. I remember thinking who the hell cares the Avs signed PAP, and figured he'd just be a David Jones esque producer. I was dead wrong, and really hope Sherman makes me feel stupid again this summer.


Last edited by Avs71: 04-05-2013 at 05:44 PM.
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Old
04-05-2013, 05:50 PM
  #328
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It's not like your views of EJ are universal. They're on the far end of the bell curve.
I'm finding out today, that I'm not rowing this boat alone either:

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Originally Posted by bohlmeister View Post
I have said this a million times. I expect much more out of him. If people want EJ to be a #1, which I believe he has the tools to be, then he needs to drastically improve.

EJ plays much too passive right now and he is a step behind in decision making in the defensive zone. That isn't even touching the offensive black hole he has become.

I am disappointed in him, because he has so much talent and potential.
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Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
Then once he hits that blueline it's like his brain shut downs, and everything takes extra time to process.

I agree that is a terrible argument. I'd say he is underachieving unless he is playing 24 minutes against the top line, and chipping ~30 points over a whole season.

I really don't know how anyone can say he is not underachieving.

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Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
Greg Sherman gave up a boat load for Erik Johnson expecting him to be a dominant player. I still don't think it was a bad gamble, but the combination of Johnson's performance and the rest of the players Sherman has built the team up with has Colorado in dead last.
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Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
No idea what has happened to any ounce of offensive skill he had in his body.

EJ lacks those other aspects as well.
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Right now he is not very comfortable playing the point, and is pretty clueless where to go without the puck on his stick.
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Shattenkirk is a much smarter player. Bad trade.
Not so far out on the end of the curve after all, eh? :-)

The real question is why? And can it be fixed?

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04-05-2013, 05:52 PM
  #329
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Yeah Landeskog definitely isn't doing what it was that made him amazing last season. There is just something missing. If it the head like you mentioned, could you not use the same excuse for EJ?
I've brought this very point up several times, re: EJ/concussion. I don't know the answer.

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Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
YOn the subject of Sherman (and PAP), if Sherman can pull another signing out like this in the summer, it'll go a long way to helping the club. I remember thinking who the hell cares the Avs signed PAP, and figured he'd just be a David Jones esque producer. I was dead wrong, and really hope Sherman makes me feel stupid again this summer.
Me too. He's much better than I anticipated.

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04-05-2013, 05:57 PM
  #330
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Came here to ***** about Lacroix and Sherman but I guess I accidentally wandered into the "All Purpose EJ" thread.

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04-05-2013, 06:55 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
If that means that great players = 1st pairing defensemen, while good players = 2nd pairing defensemen, you have me on board your ship.
No, great players = elite #1 dman, very good players mean = quality top pairing dman

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04-05-2013, 07:48 PM
  #332
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Came here to ***** about Lacroix and Sherman but I guess I accidentally wandered into the "All Purpose EJ" thread.
Haters gonna hate.

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04-07-2013, 01:15 AM
  #333
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Looks like PL was in attendance for the Phoenix game. That should make a few Sherman haters happy, because it's reminiscent of when he cleaned house firing FG and Granato the last time. He started to be seen more and more at Av games after the deadline, and take over things a bit until hiring a whole new team.

I think it's a mistake to pin this on Sherman, and hope it's more of a sign that he's trying to get a pulse of the team, and Sacco is the one that will be replaced.

I really wouldn't be shocked to see Roy take GM/HC jobs though, even keeping Sherman as assistant GM. It almost seems like the whole team was waiting to spend extra money in every area until around this point of the re-build, and Roy also wanted to wait a bit longer for his sons to graduate, and re-assess things.

Maybe this was their plan all along.

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04-07-2013, 02:16 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Looks like PL was in attendance for the Phoenix game. That should make a few Sherman haters happy, because it's reminiscent of when he cleaned house firing FG and Granato the last time. He started to be seen more and more at Av games after the deadline, and take over things a bit until hiring a whole new team.

I think it's a mistake to pin this on Sherman, and hope it's more of a sign that he's trying to get a pulse of the team, and Sacco is the one that will be replaced.

I really wouldn't be shocked to see Roy take GM/HC jobs though, even keeping Sherman as assistant GM. It almost seems like the whole team was waiting to spend extra money in every area until around this point of the re-build, and Roy also wanted to wait a bit longer for his sons to graduate, and re-assess things.

Maybe this was their plan all along.
Much as I have maligned Sherman, if indeed Lacroix merely used him as a placeholder for his son or Roy, then that's even more upsetting to me than the prospect of Joe Sacco continuing as coach next season.

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04-07-2013, 04:34 AM
  #335
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Long shot, but maybe Lacroix is considering trying to fix this himself.

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04-07-2013, 05:23 AM
  #336
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Long shot, but maybe Lacroix is considering trying to fix this himself.
I don't think so. If Roy says no once again I could definetly see this happening.

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04-07-2013, 08:46 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Looks like PL was in attendance for the Phoenix game. That should make a few Sherman haters happy, because it's reminiscent of when he cleaned house firing FG and Granato the last time. He started to be seen more and more at Av games after the deadline, and take over things a bit until hiring a whole new team.

I think it's a mistake to pin this on Sherman, and hope it's more of a sign that he's trying to get a pulse of the team, and Sacco is the one that will be replaced.

I really wouldn't be shocked to see Roy take GM/HC jobs though, even keeping Sherman as assistant GM. It almost seems like the whole team was waiting to spend extra money in every area until around this point of the re-build, and Roy also wanted to wait a bit longer for his sons to graduate, and re-assess things.

Maybe this was their plan all along.
And the last time he cleaned house he hired Sherman and Sacco, so i don't see much hope either way.

PL should be the one fired. That would be REALLY good new.

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04-07-2013, 11:35 AM
  #338
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And the last time he cleaned house he hired Sherman and Sacco, so i don't see much hope either way.

PL should be the one fired. That would be REALLY good new.
Can you imagine if Josh or Stan started going to games? Now that would be interesting.

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04-07-2013, 11:39 AM
  #339
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Can you imagine if Josh or Stan started going to games? Now that would be interesting.
agree indeed

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04-07-2013, 12:09 PM
  #340
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Can you imagine if Josh or Stan started going to games? Now that would be interesting.
Unless it is a player retirement you will have to keep imagining it, because it will never happen.

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04-07-2013, 12:34 PM
  #341
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Sherman greatly overestimated two things this season:

1) Lack of defensive capability of his current forwards. Winnik and McClement played large roles in getting pucks out of our zone that our current crop can't come close to matching. I can't tell you how many mistakes I see from our young forwards in the defensive zone on a nightly basis. Many blame the D but forwards are also largely at fault as well.

2) The value of veteran leadership on young teams. Someone like a Ray Whitney, while not a long term piece to the puzzle, can help stop a losing streak by scoring key goals, take over a game once in a while, pick guys up in the locker room when they are struggling etc. Sorry, Hejduk, Kobasew, and Hejda are not vocal leaders and are not skilled enough to take over even 1 game a season. It even more necessary w/ such a young captain.

I hope whoever is GM can bring in 1 or 2 strong veteran leaders in the offseason. Preferably who can provide strong defensive play and timely scoring support.

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04-07-2013, 12:39 PM
  #342
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Sherman greatly overestimated two things this season:

1) Lack of defensive capability of his current forwards. Winnik and McClement played large roles in getting pucks out of our zone that our current crop can't come close to matching. I can't tell you how many mistakes I see from our young forwards in the defensive zone on a nightly basis. Many blame the D but forwards are also largely at fault as well.

2) The value of veteran leadership on young teams. Someone like a Ray Whitney, while not a long term piece to the puzzle, can help stop a losing streak by scoring key goals, take over a game once in a while, pick guys up in the locker room when they are struggling etc. Sorry, Hejduk, Kobasew, and Hejda are not vocal leaders and are not skilled enough to take over even 1 game a season. It even more necessary w/ such a young captain.

I hope whoever is GM can bring in 1 or 2 strong veteran leaders in the offseason. Preferably who can provide strong defensive play and timely scoring support.
I agree completely, especially about the leadership part and with Hejduk probably/hopefully retiring.

But you are asking too much from Sherman, this is an accountant that doesn't know much about hockey.

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04-07-2013, 12:43 PM
  #343
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That's why I'm hoping its recognized and executed by a different GM!

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04-07-2013, 12:50 PM
  #344
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I agree that losing Silent Jay and Winnik made this team much easier to play against.

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04-07-2013, 01:03 PM
  #345
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Bruce Garrioch, Avalanche expert: "Greg Sherman, Colorado: Many believe he's in over his head and he'll be the first one gone with coach Joe Sacco. The betting money is former star Joe Sakic takes on the lead role to try to get the Avs back to respectability."

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04-07-2013, 01:08 PM
  #346
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I agree completely, especially about the leadership part and with Hejduk probably/hopefully retiring.

But you are asking too much from Sherman, this is an accountant that doesn't know much about hockey.
Man, just took a look at the 2013 UFA list its pretty barren but I'd consider Brendan Morrow, even if only a 3rd line winger he's been a captain before and as long his physicality hasn't completely left him could be the type of veteran contributor we need for a few years while these guys mature.

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04-07-2013, 01:09 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Bruce Garrioch, Avalanche expert: "Greg Sherman, Colorado: Many believe he's in over his head and he'll be the first one gone with coach Joe Sacco. The betting money is former star Joe Sakic takes on the lead role to try to get the Avs back to respectability."
God I hope so, anyone but the current regime would at least be a recognition of failure and desire to improve by PL/owner.

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04-07-2013, 03:47 PM
  #348
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Bruce Garrioch, Avalanche expert: "Greg Sherman, Colorado: Many believe he's in over his head and he'll be the first one gone with coach Joe Sacco. The betting money is former star Joe Sakic takes on the lead role to try to get the Avs back to respectability."
Haha, Avalanche "expert?" So Dater?

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04-07-2013, 04:30 PM
  #349
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Joe Sakic stepping in as GM?

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04-07-2013, 04:40 PM
  #350
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Joe Sakic stepping in as GM?
Ya that ain't happening

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