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Subban's play since coming back Part 2

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04-05-2013, 05:46 PM
  #726
Kriss E
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I think you've misunderstood my post... I didn't necessarily agree with how the habs approached Subban's currently deal

I've gained an appreciation for it now... But I still think it will cost the habs more in the long run because IMO, and I've always thought thus, Subban is the habs surest thing... Of all our players with high upside, I happen to think that Subban is the likeliest to reach it

But I'm not sitting here biting my nails now that he's on his way to earning that big deal... Why the hell wld I be? I'm happy as hell, he will have earned his next contract

Feeling sorry for myself about the fact the habs missed out on getting him signed to a thrifty deal so they have more money to sign a hypothetical player 2 yrs from now, seems kinda silly...

Any player that the habs WANT to sign, whether that player is their own or a free agent, they'll find a way to sign him as long as the interest is mutual

It's not the fact that PK will be making 7M in 2 yrs as opposed to 5M that's going to prevent them from doing that
Of course not, when you have 60M+ in cap space, it's never about this one player. He might not even represent 10% of the cap. What bothers me about this isn't so much about the cap on one particular player, it's more the philosophy.
Not every kid should go through a bridge contract. I mean, if Gallagher keeps progressing and becomes a ppg player by the end of his ELC (hypothetical) are we going to play hardball and sign him to a bridge deal too? And then sign him to a huge deal too?
I mean, if we keep doing that with our star players, eventually we'll run out of money.

However, I agree that the cap is much higher than it once was, so it's certainly not as important as it was back in the early days of the cap (it started at 39M).

In any event, I expect PK to be extended this summer.

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04-05-2013, 05:47 PM
  #727
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It is quite possible that the bridge deal and the difficult negotiations provided the motivation for Subban to mature, develop and play up to his potential! There us no complacency in his game so far. The bridge contract IMO contributed to Subban's Norris calibre play.
We just never know. The only thing we know now is that it's going to cost the Habs a lot to extend/resign PK.

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04-05-2013, 05:50 PM
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That's fine, but it's not because you couldn't care less that it wasn't a mistake.

What's done is done, we will have to sign PK to a much bigger deal now, but still, we should have locked him up before. Anytime you can save some cash, you do it, especially when it's a sure bet like PK.
It's also not because you care that it is a mistake either...

But again, I don't know why it's a bad thing that they'll have to sign him to a bigger deal... If they do its cause he earned, that's a GOOD thing

You save cash by paying role players their proper value... You save cash by having performing players on entry level deals... You save cash by having expiring contracts coming off the books, etc

There are COUNTLESS ways to save money on the cap... Teams do it all the time

Yet fans still sit there and pul their hair out over teams 'overpaying' their players

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04-05-2013, 05:51 PM
  #729
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It is quite possible that the bridge deal and the difficult negotiations provided the motivation for Subban to mature, develop and play up to his potential! There us no complacency in his game so far. The bridge contract IMO contributed to Subban's Norris calibre play.
But that's nothing more than a theory built out of air. What do you have to support this claim? Nothing really..
If you followed the development of PK over the years dating back to juniors, then you'd know his progress is extremely fast. I mean, in just two seasons he was effectively shutting down the best opponents, some of the best players in the NHL.
If you also look at how he takes his off season training, his work ethic in games and practices, then you see a guy that's extremely serious, focused and dedicated.

So really, I don't see why he would suddenly become complacent. It just doesn't fit with his history or personality.

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04-05-2013, 05:54 PM
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I'm not sure this is true.

There are a ton of people who are clueless at evaluating talent. I was very involved in the contract talks threads and I remember a lot of idiots saying a lot of dumb things.
Yes, but they were still the minority imo. most people who knew PK was special didn't post in that thread. You, me, krisse and others did regularly, but I know of other posters who were very high on pk but just stayed away. There were less than a dozen regular posters like soutthernhabs ect voicing their opinion. Sometimes the minority are just louder even when they have no clue what they are on about.

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04-05-2013, 05:54 PM
  #731
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Of course not, when you have 60M+ in cap space, it's never about this one player. He might not even represent 10% of the cap. What bothers me about this isn't so much about the cap on one particular player, it's more the philosophy.
Not every kid should go through a bridge contract. I mean, if Gallagher keeps progressing and becomes a ppg player by the end of his ELC (hypothetical) are we going to play hardball and sign him to a bridge deal too? And then sign him to a huge deal too?
I mean, if we keep doing that with our star players, eventually we'll run out of money.

However, I agree that the cap is much higher than it once was, so it's certainly not as important as it was back in the early days of the cap (it started at 39M).

In any event, I expect PK to be extended this summer.
on the other hand, if you give them all (the good ones) long deal thinking you may save a few $ later... you'll end up with a team filled with high priced youngsters. there will always be a youngster waiting for his 2nd contract "later"...

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04-05-2013, 05:54 PM
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I have moved on. MB has had a great first year, and as long as he does the right thing THIS summer and extends Subban to an 8 year deal, I'm fine with whatever.

Now I think you underestimate uthe effect this will have on the team. There could be a 2-3M difference which could be the difference between re-signing Ryder or having to roll the dice on some UFA with less reputation whom we believe can take the next step with us. That's all fine and dandy if we have amazing pro scouts and we're ahead of the curve and we can somehow make sure these players want to sign with us despite all of the negative factors surrounding the team.

The truth is that GMs need every advantages they can get, and signings your RFAs out of their ELC deals to long term contracts at a lower value is one tool you can use to get ahead of other teams. We didn't take advantage of it, it's not the end of the world, but it has more consequences than you think.

Whatever, I've moved on. He'll make big dollars, pressure will be higher, and let's hope that our crazy market doesn't turn on him. It just bothered me that MB messed up on the most obvious move of the summer.
I'm not underestimating the impact of potentially overpaying for players... Just think that when you have a management staff that's proficient in drafting and player evaluation, you can always get around it

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04-05-2013, 05:55 PM
  #733
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Subban has it. We need to mix his passion with the rest of our rookies. Like a good red sauce... it stains. MT can handle him and develop him. Lefvbreve(sp) needs to go IMO. There's no way anyone can agree in giving him the keys to the team he may have next year, or even this year. Throw the bank at Muller and Boucher and get them back.

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04-05-2013, 05:57 PM
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Subban has it. We need to mix his passion with the rest of our rookies. Like a good red sauce... it stains. MT can handle him and develop him. Lefvbreve(sp) needs to go IMO. There's no way anyone can agree in giving him the keys to the team he may have next year, or even this year. Throw the bank at Muller and Boucher and get them back.
Dumont, Patteryn, Beaulieu and Tinordi did pretty good when called up, he must be doing some things right.

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04-05-2013, 05:57 PM
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It's also not because you care that it is a mistake either...

But again, I don't know why it's a bad thing that they'll have to sign him to a bigger deal... If they do its cause he earned, that's a GOOD thing

You save cash by paying role players their proper value... You save cash by having performing players on entry level deals... You save cash by having expiring contracts coming off the books, etc

There are COUNTLESS ways to save money on the cap... Teams do it all the time

Yet fans still sit there and pul their hair out over teams 'overpaying' their players
It's not a bad thing.

I don't know why you're having a hard time understanding really.

There's no problem. PK will re-sign, and he will have his money.
But here's the simple question, you rather have PK at 4.5M or 7M?..Pretty simple and obvious. Now, does it change anything to me? No. Does it mean it will prevent us from getting anybody else? Doubt it. But it would still save us some cash, and in a cap world, that's always a good thing. Simple. But it's not the end of the world.

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04-05-2013, 06:00 PM
  #736
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It's not a bad thing.

I don't know why you're having a hard time understanding really.

There's no problem. PK will re-sign, and he will have his money.
But here's the simple question, you rather have PK at 4.5M or 7M?..Pretty simple and obvious. Now, does it change anything to me? No. Does it mean it will prevent us from getting anybody else? Doubt it. But it would still save us some cash, and in a cap world, that's always a good thing. Simple. But it's not the end of the world.
at the end of the day, in two or three years having PK at 5 and lets say Gallagher at 4 (cause by that logic, if he plays well, Gallagher has to "skip" his bridge contract) isnt much different than having Subban at 7 and Gallagher at 2...

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04-05-2013, 06:02 PM
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Dumont, Patteryn, Beaulieu and Tinordi did pretty good when called up, he must be doing some things right.
Really? Can you name the 1st year players in the AHL... on your list?

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04-05-2013, 06:03 PM
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Really? Can you name the 1st year players in the AHL... on your list?
are you saying they were bad ?

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04-05-2013, 06:03 PM
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Of course not, when you have 60M+ in cap space, it's never about this one player. He might not even represent 10% of the cap. What bothers me about this isn't so much about the cap on one particular player, it's more the philosophy.
Not every kid should go through a bridge contract. I mean, if Gallagher keeps progressing and becomes a ppg player by the end of his ELC (hypothetical) are we going to play hardball and sign him to a bridge deal too? And then sign him to a huge deal too?
I mean, if we keep doing that with our star players, eventually we'll run out of money.

However, I agree that the cap is much higher than it once was, so it's certainly not as important as it was back in the early days of the cap (it started at 39M).

In any event, I expect PK to be extended this summer.
Just to use your Gallagher example... If he's a PPG player by the end of his ELC, he likely will have to sign a bridge deal because that's the organizational standard that's they've apparently set

Like it or not... That's how they've chosen to do business. Looking at how some of the other teams have handled their players coming on entry level... I can't say I blame them entirely

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04-05-2013, 06:04 PM
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For the record, I wanted the habs to sign Subban to a long term deal when he was holding out

But now that he's signed his bridge deal and is performing, I cldnt careless about how much he'll eventually sign for... He's earned whatever deal he'll get

And if MB made his job more complicated, then that's on him... I'm sure he'll find a way around it

You know... Like all other GM's do
You keep saying this 417, and have been for years, but managing the cap is still important, no matter how you try to downplay it. We discuss our team, winning, lineups, losing, dpairings, pp minutes, salary caps, trades ect. Your position on a singling out the cap is a bit odd tbh. Everything we discuss on these boards is someone else's job to deal with. If we only discussed things that we were in control of it would be a pretty boring place to discuss habs related matters wouldn't it be?


To me, it makes little difference here. We saved money in the first 2 years and will pony up after that, if he signed him long term, we pay more in the early years and less in the years after. My point wasn't just about the dollars involved and it's about showing faith and confidence in your star as well. We give Brandon Prust 10m over 4 years and tell PK he has to wait and prove himself, like seriously? Having said that, from an owners/business aspect which can not be discounted, Molson will undoubtedly be paying more over x years now than if he signed him long term when the dispute happened. These things all matter when running a business.

I also disagree that the cap is completely irrelevant, in years past it was bordering on being pretty close to that, but the landscape has shifted a bit. I don't want to dive too deep into this discussion, I'm well aware of your opinion and you are mine and we are unlikely to change our way of thinking based on anything said here.


Last edited by habsfanatics: 04-05-2013 at 06:09 PM.
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04-05-2013, 06:07 PM
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at the end of the day, in two or three years having PK at 5 and lets say Gallagher at 4 (cause by that logic, if he plays well, Gallagher has to "skip" his bridge contract) isnt much different than having Subban at 7 and Gallagher at 2...
Well first off that's if Gallagher only gets 2M, and it's more about when his bridge deal is over, then he gets maybe 5M or maybe more depending on his progress.
Then it adds up to more, so instead of having 9M for 2 players, they end up combining for 12M.

But as I said, in no way does this mean we're doomed to have cap problems. I just think that whenever you have the chance to save some cash and commit to a player that's a sure bet, you do it. It only helps.

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04-05-2013, 06:07 PM
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are you saying they were bad ?
? It was a layered question. Sorry.

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04-05-2013, 06:07 PM
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It's not a bad thing.

I don't know why you're having a hard time understanding really.

There's no problem. PK will re-sign, and he will have his money.
But here's the simple question, you rather have PK at 4.5M or 7M?..Pretty simple and obvious. Now, does it change anything to me? No. Does it mean it will prevent us from getting anybody else? Doubt it. But it would still save us some cash, and in a cap world, that's always a good thing. Simple. But it's not the end of the world.
I think you overestimating the difference. PK wouldn't have signed long term for less than $5 and probably wanted at least $5.5m.

With the cap supposedly going down next year, I don't see any $7m contracts next year except for Malkin. So we might end up paying him in the $6.5m range. Which is only a million more but we will end up having him tied up longer this way.

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04-05-2013, 06:09 PM
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Just to use your Gallagher example... If he's a PPG player by the end of his ELC, he likely will have to sign a bridge deal because that's the organizational standard that's they've apparently set

Like it or not... That's how they've chosen to do business. Looking at how some of the other teams have handled their players coming on entry level... I can't say I blame them entirely
You do? Because they did just that in Chicago and if they hadn't locked up some of that talent early on, they might have lost more of them.

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04-05-2013, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
You keep saying this 417, and have been for years, but managing the cap is still important, no matter how you try to downplay it. We discuss our team, winning, lineups, losing, dpairings, pp minutes, salary caps, trades ect. Your position on a singling out the cap is a bit odd tbh. Everything we discuss on these boards is someone else job to deal with. If we only discussed things that we were in control of it would be a pretty boring place to discuss habs related matters wouldn't it be?


To me, it makes little difference here. We saved money in the first 2 years and will pony up after that, if he signed him long term, we pay more in the early years and less in the years after. My point wasn't just about the dollars involved and it's about showing faith and confidence in your star as well. We give Brandon Prust 10m over 4 years and tell PK he has to wait and prove himself, like seriously? Having said that, from an owners/business aspect which can not be discounted, Molson will undoubtedly be paying more over x years now than if he signed him long term when the dispute happened. These things all matter when running a business.

I also disagree that the cap is completely irrelevant, in years past it was bordering on being pretty close to that, but the landscape has shifted a bit. I don't want to dive too deep into this discussion, I'm well aware of your opinion and you are mine and we are unlikely to change our way of thinking based on anything said here.
only when you look at it on an individual basis.

For one, wether PK makes 5, 6 or 7 Mil it wont cost more to Molson, he'll spend to the Cap anyway.

And by giving him a long 2nd contract, you create a precedent, Sure other youngsters may not ask for 5 per, but if Gallagher keeps the pace you have to give him 3.5 or 4... if Galchenuyk get 60+ next two seasons you have to give him 4.5...

in the end, you may have saved on a single individual, but you have to spend more on a few others...

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04-05-2013, 06:12 PM
  #746
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It's not a bad thing.

I don't know why you're having a hard time understanding really.

There's no problem. PK will re-sign, and he will have his money.
But here's the simple question, you rather have PK at 4.5M or 7M?..Pretty simple and obvious. Now, does it change anything to me? No. Does it mean it will prevent us from getting anybody else? Doubt it. But it would still save us some cash, and in a cap world, that's always a good thing. Simple. But it's not the end of the world.
I understand what you're saying... I'm not an idiot I can assure you

But to answer your question about Subban at 4.5M or 7M... I really think it's irrelevant, what's is important to me is that he's signed long term... So whatever it takes to get that done, get it done

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04-05-2013, 06:12 PM
  #747
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You do? Because they did just that in Chicago and if they hadn't locked up some of that talent early on, they might have lost more of them.
Seabrook and keith both had 2nd contracts at a way lower salary than the one they have now..

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04-05-2013, 06:13 PM
  #748
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I think you overestimating the difference. PK wouldn't have signed long term for less than $5 and probably wanted at least $5.5m.

With the cap supposedly going down next year, I don't see any $7m contracts next year except for Malkin. So we might end up paying him in the $6.5m range. Which is only a million more but we will end up having him tied up longer this way.
There were rumors saying he wanted 4.5M and PK's assistant agent also said during negotiations that the money wasn't that far off, the problem was length. So, if we look at next year, he'll be making 3.75M. So my guess is he wanted around 4M, for longer.

Anyways, pretty irrelevant at this point.

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04-05-2013, 06:14 PM
  #749
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It is quite possible that the bridge deal and the difficult negotiations provided the motivation for Subban to mature, develop and play up to his potential! There us no complacency in his game so far. The bridge contract IMO contributed to Subban's Norris calibre play.
Grasping at straws.

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04-05-2013, 06:14 PM
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Seabrook and keith both had 2nd contracts at a way lower salary than the one they have now..
Ya, but Toews and Kane were signed right after their ELC.

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