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Jake Gardiner's Future

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Old
04-05-2013, 06:02 PM
  #1
Stephen
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Jake Gardiner's Future

I want to start off by saying that by no means do I think Gardiner is a savior or beyond criticism as a young player, but I do feel like the organization has treated him a little bit strangely this season after the concussion time, the prolonged period in the AHL that probably did him no good, and the healthy scratch at this point.

He hasn't impressed me defensively, or even looked like he's been willing to play with a lot of courage since coming back, but I think he's a guy with enough skill and upside that he should be along for the ride and ups and downs in this quest to make the playoffs. I don't think he needs more minor league grooming. If anything, I think he needs to have some rope to run with to get back into a good NHL rhythm, the way Cody Franson did at the beginning of the year.

That said, I have the feeling like he's being written out of the Leafs long term plans at this point. He's not good enough to risk playing on a team that's putting it together, and there's another prospect in Rielly who might bring a similar and superior game in the near future.

I'd almost liken his situation to Fredrik Modin, Steve Sullivan and Jason Smith, three prospects who seemed to have a bright future in Toronto, but found themselves on the outside looking in under the Pat Quinn system for a variety of shortsighted reasons. I almost expect Gards to be moved at the draft for a forward in another JVR for Schenn type swap. It's not the end of the world if we get back proper value with upside, but it does seem disappointing from the perspetive of how bright a light he looked like last year and early in the AHL season.

How do you see this situation? What are your expectations for Jake Gardiner's future with the Toronto Maple Leafs at this point? Does he stay or go?

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04-05-2013, 06:04 PM
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How this for a prediction: he gets traded on draft day as part of a package to move up to get Max Domi

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04-05-2013, 06:08 PM
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have people ever heard of the word
patience?
wait?
development?

seriously
you people are the same ****s who wanted to trade Kadri
cause he wasn't performing as a 1st round pick


Jake Gardiner is a great guy with great offensive talent
he will play later on


Last edited by Epictetus: 04-05-2013 at 06:14 PM.
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04-05-2013, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Aplayaz2000 View Post
have people ever heard of the word
patience?
wait?
development?

seriously
you people are the same ****s who wanted to trade Kadri
cause he wasn't performing as a 1st round pick


Jake Gardiner is a great guy with great offensive talent
he will play later on
I am patient. I don't Carlyle is though.

Kadri succeeded because they gave him some room to run with. Gardiner is neither going to re-learn to play an NHL game in the pressbox, or earn a coach's trust being a healthy scratch.

To me, the equation is this:

Gardiner and his terrible defense and good offense and upside > Kostka's slightly better defense, lack of any offense and no upside. But Carlyle seems to value that slight bit more of reliability in Kostka.

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04-05-2013, 06:12 PM
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I have a feeling When Gardiner is in his UFA year, he won't take an offer from us and ditch somewhere else.

Yes, he hasn't looked good defensively but he has shown tremendous offense and he was really making things happen offensively when he played the 3-4 games with us.

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04-05-2013, 06:12 PM
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He'll be fine.


Got quite a chuckle from the people in the O'bryne thread saying Gardiner is on his way out.

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04-05-2013, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
He'll be fine.


Got quite a chuckle from the people in the O'bryne thread saying Gardiner is on his way out.
I think he is on his way out. I just don't see the organization standing behind him with any sort of confidence.

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04-05-2013, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I think he is on his way out. I just don't see the organization standing behind him with any sort of confidence.
Same. I think Gardiner will get traded.

Just look at who plays ahead of him:

Holzer...gets like 20 games despite making a 100 mistakes.
Kostka...
Fraser...he's good but he too makes mistakes as a 6th D.
Franson...again he's pretty good for what he does but that pairing is prone to cycling.

If Carlyle can't find a place for Gardiner to play, I don't think he'll be here for much longer.

It'll be a shame if we have to trade him because he's got an unbelievable skill set and we should be helping him realize his full potential instead of benching him.

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04-05-2013, 06:19 PM
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I think he is on his way out. I just don't see the organization standing behind him with any sort of confidence.
Several people said the exact same thing with Kadri, Stephen. We got some good heads in our organization and we are patient. Which is needed to develop our kids. Fowler, Sbisa, for the defensemen were raised under Carlyle. Lupul, Selanne, Ryan and now Kessel were also raised in a manner where offense is great but you have to work on your defense no matter what.

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04-05-2013, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I am patient. I don't Carlyle is though.

Kadri succeeded because they gave him some room to run with. Gardiner is neither going to re-learn to play an NHL game in the pressbox, or earn a coach's trust being a healthy scratch.

To me, the equation is this:

Gardiner and his terrible defense and good offense and upside > Kostka's slightly better defense, lack of any offense and no upside. But Carlyle seems to value that slight bit more of reliability in Kostka.
I think it's just down to circumstance.

Caryle wants to get in the playoffs and snap this drought, And even the biggest Gardiner fans will say he's had some problem in his own end this year and now isn't the time for Gardiner's re-acclamation process.

Next season with a full training camp should be a different story.

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04-05-2013, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Several people said the exact same thing with Kadri, Stephen. We got some good heads in our organization and we are patient. Which is needed to develop our kids. Fowler, Sbisa, for the defensemen were raised under Carlyle. Lupul, Selanne, Ryan and now Kessel were also raised in a manner where offense is great but you have to work on your defense no matter what.
Yes, but he allowed Fowler to make a lot of mistakes. I don't think Fowler was ever scratched and if he was, it wasn't for more than a game.

Fowler was in the region of -50 in his first two years. It's a bad stat to use but if you're -50, clearly the other team is taking advantage of you.

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04-05-2013, 06:26 PM
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I think he is on his way out. I just don't see the organization standing behind him with any sort of confidence.
Why do you have that little confidence in the team then?


Do we need a Colton Orr esque press conference every time a player has a bad stretch of games just so we know the team still supports him?

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04-05-2013, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Several people said the exact same thing with Kadri, Stephen. We got some good heads in our organization and we are patient. Which is needed to develop our kids. Fowler, Sbisa, for the defensemen were raised under Carlyle. Lupul, Selanne, Ryan and now Kessel were also raised in a manner where offense is great but you have to work on your defense no matter what.
Well, in Kadri's case, Nonis did have to go and go "all in" on Kadri by moving millions in dead salary at center to give him ice time, and when you hear the various reports on how often Kadri was packaged up for an upgrade (M. Richards, Yandle, possibly Luongo last summer), it seems like a bit of a miracle that he worked out at all...

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04-05-2013, 06:27 PM
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I don't really see it as a big deal and doubt the current situation has any bearing on the organization wanting to trade him.

He's a young player who is waiver-eligible and the team is in the middle of a playoff-run. Carlyle prefers to go with the "safer" option in Kostka for the last 3 games. Think about that, it has only been 3 games since Gardiner last played. Hardly that big of a deal.

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04-05-2013, 06:31 PM
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Yes, but he allowed Fowler to make a lot of mistakes. I don't think Fowler was ever scratched and if he was, it wasn't for more than a game.

Fowler was in the region of -50 in his first two years. It's a bad stat to use but if you're -50, clearly the other team is taking advantage of you.
But, in 2010 when they made the playoffs, Fowler was with the team right from camp and didn't have to be sent to the AHL to get back into playing shape. So, the team was clearly playoff-bound even with Fowler's rookie mistakes.

In 2011, the team was clearly out of the playoffs so allowing Fowler to grow and learn while on the ice didn't have an impact on their playoff chances. Different situations.

If, Gardiner wasn't waiver-eligible, he would be on the Marlies right now continuing to develop.

And again, it has only been 3 games where Gardiner has been healthy scratched. That is nothing in the long-run. Also, to the guy who said Gardiner won't re-sign with us as UFA over these last 3 games, that is just absurd. Do you hold a grudge with your boss due to a week-long incident from 5 years ago?

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04-05-2013, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
Why do you have that little confidence in the team then?


Do we need a Colton Orr esque press conference every time a player has a bad stretch of games just so we know the team still supports him?
Confidence in the Leafs ability to do it the right way requires a leap of faith I don't think anyone is justified to have after the last however many years you want to include into the discussion.

I'm not looking for a press conference, actions speak louder than words.

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04-05-2013, 06:32 PM
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Good idea to pull all the Gardiner conversation here

The more I think about it, the more I wonder-with this "push" to make the playoffs this year and "get rid of the albatross" so to speak, is Gardiner part of that kind of being put aside (rightly or wrongly) in a "we can't have a learning curve at this point, we need to make the playoffs" mentality going on. Then, when the offseason hits, ASSUMING Gardiner is not traded, he's told off season "this is what you work on". Fast Forward to preseason/early next season, Gardiner will show what progress he's made. I wonder at that point, depending on Reilly and what HE shows may depend on Gardiner's future.

The offseason will be an interesting one in that regard.

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04-05-2013, 06:34 PM
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How this for a prediction: he gets traded on draft day as part of a package to move up to get Max Domi
I would be rather upset if this happened. If we are to trade Gardiner, the only way id be ok with it would be to move into the top 5 of the draft. So...probably not going to happen.

What pisses me off about this whole Gardiner situation is that he was so brilliantly good last year. Despite what people say about his defense, he was great defensively last year. Not in terms of reading the play, anticipation, you know your typical defensive traits. He was amazing at stripping guys of the puck with his speed and agility and then taking off down the ice. He would recover from his own mistakes using his speed and agility.

This season he's on a short leash and he knows it. He is playing passively instead of aggressively, which is how he needs to play. I absolutely hate hate hate how Carlyle is treating him this season. His chain being jerked around reminds me a lot of how Franson was treated last year. It really leaves a bad taste in my mouth that Gardiner's development is possibly being stunted because Carlyle would rather play his boyfriend Mike "good at nothing" Kostka. Really aggravating.

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04-05-2013, 06:34 PM
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I don't really see it as a big deal and doubt the current situation has any bearing on the organization wanting to trade him.

He's a young player who is waiver-eligible and the team is in the middle of a playoff-run. Carlyle prefers to go with the "safer" option in Kostka for the last 3 games. Think about that, it has only been 3 games since Gardiner last played. Hardly that big of a deal.
When you consider Gardiner was part of an all-rookie team including RHN, Landeskog and Henrique, I think it's more than fair to be disappointed that he's been handled like a part-timer.

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04-05-2013, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Good idea to pull all the Gardiner conversation here

The more I think about it, the more I wonder-with this "push" to make the playoffs this year and "get rid of the albatross" so to speak, is Gardiner part of that kind of being put aside (rightly or wrongly) in a "we can't have a learning curve at this point, we need to make the playoffs" mentality going on. Then, when the offseason hits, ASSUMING Gardiner is not traded, he's told off season "this is what you work on". Fast Forward to preseason/early next season, Gardiner will show what progress he's made. I wonder at that point, depending on Reilly and what HE shows may depend on Gardiner's future.

The offseason will be an interesting one in that regard.
Don't forget we didn't exactly have a training camp this season either. With limited practice time, it's not that easy to "try things out" and see who fits where. The d-core as is has gotten us this far. Carlyle doesn't seem that willing to change things drastically without seeing it in practice first.

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04-05-2013, 06:37 PM
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When you consider Gardiner was part of an all-rookie team including RHN, Landeskog and Henrique, I think it's more than fair to be disappointed that he's been handled like a part-timer.
But, for the games that he has played, he hasn't looked like the dman we had last season either. Giving him a week in the pressbox hardly seems to indicate that the team doesn't have faith in him or wants to trade him. If he doesn't play a single game the rest of the way, then maybe we can have this discussion.

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04-05-2013, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Good idea to pull all the Gardiner conversation here

The more I think about it, the more I wonder-with this "push" to make the playoffs this year and "get rid of the albatross" so to speak, is Gardiner part of that kind of being put aside (rightly or wrongly) in a "we can't have a learning curve at this point, we need to make the playoffs" mentality going on. Then, when the offseason hits, ASSUMING Gardiner is not traded, he's told off season "this is what you work on". Fast Forward to preseason/early next season, Gardiner will show what progress he's made. I wonder at that point, depending on Reilly and what HE shows may depend on Gardiner's future.

The offseason will be an interesting one in that regard.
I almost think of it like this:

-Internal discussion: "Rielly or Gardiner"? Answer: "Rielly."

-Offseason: trade Gardiner to Philadelphia, also an impatient organization, for a struggling Couturier, or the Barkov pick or something like that.

Going forward, we have a center to be the number 1A or 2 to Kadri, and one offensive defenseman to plug into a group of big bodied giants with medium skill as Carlyle likes it...

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04-05-2013, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Confidence in the Leafs ability to do it the right way requires a leap of faith I don't think anyone is justified to have after the last however many years you want to include into the discussion.

I'm not looking for a press conference, actions speak louder than words.

I Guess it depends on how many different Coaches and Managers you want to talk about. You can't blame Dave Nonis and the current group because a few kids in the 80's weren't handled right.

The current group did the right thing by Kadri and that's enough for me.

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04-05-2013, 06:40 PM
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I almost think of it like this:

-Internal discussion: "Rielly or Gardiner"? Answer: "Rielly."

-Offseason: trade Gardiner to Philadelphia, also an impatient organization, for a struggling Couturier, or the Barkov pick or something like that.

Going forward, we have a center to be the number 1A or 2 to Kadri, and one offensive defenseman to plug into a group of big bodied giants with medium skill as Carlyle likes it...
In Anaheim, Carlyle had no problem playing offensive-dman Fowler and Visnovsky in his lineup at the same time along with another youngster in Sbisa. I think a shortened season with minimal practice time is not the proper time to judge how Carlyle will want this team going further.

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04-05-2013, 06:41 PM
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Don't forget we didn't exactly have a training camp this season either. With limited practice time, it's not that easy to "try things out" and see who fits where. The d-core as is has gotten us this far. Carlyle doesn't seem that willing to change things drastically without seeing it in practice first.
And I understand that completely. I just wonder what he sees in practice with Kostka that SEEMS to give him free reign (optics saying he gets lots of chances) yet Gardiner seems to (again optically) be on a "short leash" and plays like it.

Going by what I read on the game forums, Kostka makes a lot of mistakes, which with a growing team is understandable, yet Gardiner seems to be held to a different standard and not allowed to make them, which is why I do wonder how much Gardiner is in Carlyle's plans.

I'm neither pro or con for either player, just trying to understand the "seeming" mixed messages.

I agree with the shortened season/Leafs in playoff push right now, there's that move to get rid of the playoff drought and it may not be the time to judge Randy's decisions (but I'm questioning anyway )

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