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Subban's play since coming back Part 2

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Old
04-05-2013, 06:15 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'm not underestimating the impact of potentially overpaying for players... Just think that when you have a management staff that's proficient in drafting and player evaluation, you can always get around it
I agree. One mistake won't kill you in a game where the best team doesn't even have 100% chance of winning.

EDIT: The addition of small mistakes will though.

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04-05-2013, 06:16 PM
  #752
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only when you look at it on an individual basis.

For one, wether PK makes 5, 6 or 7 Mil it wont cost more to Molson, he'll spend to the Cap anyway.

And by giving him a long 2nd contract, you create a precedent, Sure other youngsters may not ask for 5 per, but if Gallagher keeps the pace you have to give him 3.5 or 4... if Galchenuyk get 60+ next two seasons you have to give him 4.5...


in the end, you may have saved on a single individual, but you have to spend more on a few others...
Yes, but in the end, you will end up paying more if you wait when they're worth 6-7-8M as opposed to getting them locked up early at 3.5-4.5M.

I mean really, it's not that complicated to understand.

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04-05-2013, 06:18 PM
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Remember when some compared PK to Del Zotto?

lol

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04-05-2013, 06:19 PM
  #754
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Ya, but Toews and Kane were signed right after their ELC.
they're making 6.3 Mil each... think it would have made much of a difference if they had to go trough a bridge contract and then to a 7 Mil contract ?

they saved 700K on each... it's not like they saved Millions per year by signing them long term right away.

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04-05-2013, 06:20 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yes, but in the end, you will end up paying more if you wait when they're worth 6-7-8M as opposed to getting them locked up early at 3.5-4.5M.

I mean really, it's not that complicated to understand.
in the end, bridge contract or not, Habs will spend to the Cap... so how are they going to spend MORE ? tell me, please...

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04-05-2013, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
I think you overestimating the difference. PK wouldn't have signed long term for less than $5 and probably wanted at least $5.5m.

With the cap supposedly going down next year, I don't see any $7m contracts next year except for Malkin. So we might end up paying him in the $6.5m range. Which is only a million more but we will end up having him tied up longer this way.
I can't see Malkin taking any less money than Crosby.

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04-05-2013, 06:22 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
You keep saying this 417, and have been for years, but managing the cap is still important, no matter how you try to downplay it. We discuss our team, winning, lineups, losing, dpairings, pp minutes, salayry caps, trades ect. Your position on a singling out the cap is a bit odd tbh. Everything we discuss on these boards is someone else's job to deal with. If we only discussed things that we were in control of it would be a pretty boring place to discuss habs related matters wouldn't it be?


To me, it makes little difference here. We saved money in the first 2 years and will pony up after that, if he signed him long term, we pay more in the early years and less in the years after. My point wasn't just about the dollars involved and it's about showing faith and confidence in your star as well. We give Brandon Prust 10m over 4 years and tell PK he has to wait and prove himself, like seriously? Having said that, from an owners/business aspect which can not be discounted, Molson will undoubtedly be paying more over x years now than if he signed him long term when the dispute happened. These things all matter when running a business.

I also disagree that the cap is completely irrelevant, in years past it was bordering on being pretty close to that, but the landscape has shifted a bit. I don't want to dive too deep into this discussion, I'm well aware of your opinion and you are mine and we are unlikely to change our way of thinking based on anything said here.
I never said the cap is irrelevant or if I did, I didn't explain myself clearly. I'm not sitting here advocating tossing around money like it's monopoly

But really, teams overpay all the time... Overpaying a star player like Subban, imo, is not an issue for me, he's an iconic player on the habs, he deserves to be paid like it

Look at Brandon Prust... Everyone here freaked out about his contract, what an overpayment

But how many habs fans here wldnt want Prust today even at 2.5M???

He's still making the same money he was this summer when he was 'overpaid'... Yet no one seems to care now do they???

Of course, player salaries matter...But not in the way fans seems to be convinced it does

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04-05-2013, 06:24 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
they're making 6.3 Mil each... think it would have made much of a difference if they had to go trough a bridge contract and then to a 7 Mil contract ?

they saved 700K on each... it's not like they saved Millions per year by signing them long term right away.
Who knows? They signed their extensions during the season, then won the cup.
Bringing a cup in might help you negotiate a little more than just a 700K increase.

In any event, this wasn't the point. It was said that looking around the league, signing players after their ELC seemed to be a mistake, I was just pointing out that this wasn't true.

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04-05-2013, 06:24 PM
  #759
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While it's great to see Subban earning his teammates' respect it, would be nice to see them start sticking up for him during game situations. PK is our star player and teams are increasingly targeting him and taking runs at him. His teammates need to step in when this happens. If we look at Kadri, Crosby, Kane, Doughty, Seguin... these players have so much space on the ice because opponents know that they'll pay the consequences if they take cheap shots at the star players. We can't afford to lose PK, and I'd be happier if he had a bit more protection.
Bravo

''Can't afford to lose PK'' is a major understatement!!
I would need a decade's worth of supply (prozac!) if Subban ever got injured, especially a vicious target play with intention of injuring him and none of our players come to his defense.

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04-05-2013, 06:25 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
are you saying they were bad ?
Waiting........................................... ..................................

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04-05-2013, 06:27 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
in the end, bridge contract or not, Habs will spend to the Cap... so how are they going to spend MORE ? tell me, please...
Man, are you doing this on purpose or are you really that clueless?

Signing your RFAs to cheaper deals gives you more cash to spend on the open market, where players are a lot more expensive.
If you end up paying your RFAs just as much as UFAs, you gain no advantage.

Having star players locked up at a cheap price is a luxury. It makes things simpler. That's all. I mean really, you can't possibly deny that. Let it go already.

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04-05-2013, 06:28 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I agree. One mistake won't kill you in a game where the best team doesn't even have 100% chance of winning.

EDIT: The addition of small mistakes will though.
GM's don't usually stick around long enough to make many small mistakes

Although some GM's (sather) stick around long enough to make MANY big mistakes... And even then, it certainly doesn't prevent them from signing and/or trading for any player they want

Again... This myth that the salary cap acts as some mythical black cloud that hovers over teams is just that... A myth

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04-05-2013, 06:32 PM
  #763
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Man, are you doing this on purpose or are you really that clueless?

Signing your RFAs to cheaper deals gives you more cash to spend on the open market, where players are a lot more expensive.
If you end up paying your RFAs just as much as UFAs, you gain no advantage.

Having star players locked up at a cheap price is a luxury. It makes things simpler. That's all. I mean really, you can't possibly deny that. Let it go already.
But in the end, you end up overpaying for any player on the open market anyways lol

So what difference does it make?? I'd much rather overspend to keep homegrown talent than overpay for UFA's

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04-05-2013, 06:32 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
GM's don't usually stick around long enough to make many small mistakes

Although some GM's (sather) stick around long enough to make MANY big mistakes... And even then, it certainly doesn't prevent them from signing and/or trading for any player they want

Again... This myth that the salary cap acts as some mythical black cloud that hovers over teams is just that... A myth
Well this is clearly false. The blackhawks had to trade away all their depth following their cup win because of cap mistakes.

This is one instance of this happening, there are others. Not as obvious but I don't feel like going into obvious things.

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04-05-2013, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
in the end, bridge contract or not, Habs will spend to the Cap... so how are they going to spend MORE ? tell me, please...
They will spend more on one player and subsequently have less for another. Are you joking with him or did you really not understand his explanation? I'm not sure everyone in this discussion is on the same page.

Spending to the cap is going to happen, but spending to the cap with Subban signed on his bridge deal at 2.875 means that when this contract is done he will be getting close to a 250% raise (about 7.2 M a year). So that means the Habs need to find close to 5 M in cap space to get him under the cap. Some will say getting rid of Kaberle, etc... But what if he was making 5.75 for the next 6 years? We would have the cap space this year to handle it. Next year the Habs have a Norris Trophy Candidate with a strong possibility to win it, at 5.75 which allows you extra room to fill in other holes since you have the reigning best D in the league at a 5.75 bargain. And the wonderful thing is, he is paid like a star, earning 6.5, 7 and 7.5 M in year 4 to 6 of the deal.

The future is now and taking the risk on Subban was the best option. Again this risk is not for every player coming out of their ELC.

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04-05-2013, 06:35 PM
  #766
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Well this is clearly false. The blackhawks had to trade away all their depth following their cup win because of cap mistakes.

This is one instance of this happening, there are others. Not as obvious but I don't feel like going into obvious things.
That happened because of an administrative mistake

Furthermore, the hawks have been a playoff team every year since their cup and they've managed to lock up their core players to long term deals

So not sure I agree at all here... And at worst, ONE example does t change what I said

It' a myth


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04-05-2013, 06:36 PM
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But in the end, you end up overpaying for any player on the open market anyways lol

So what difference does it make?? I'd much rather overspend to keep homegrown talent than overpay for UFA's
Well if you don't have those RFAs locked up to cheaper deals you won't be able to overpay as much on those free agents.
At the end nothing changes, we will be a cap team. Same amount of cash will be dished out. But how that cash is distributed among the players is important.

To maximize talent, you need that homegrown talent signed for cheaper, so you can overspend when you have no choice but to do so. You hit the UFA market and you will have to overpay, there's no way around it.
Your homegrown talent though, you don't have to overpay there. And the least money overspent there means more cash for the open market.

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04-05-2013, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
But in the end, you end up overpaying for any player on the open market anyways lol

So what difference does it make?? I'd much rather overspend to keep homegrown talent than overpay for UFA's
But how do you fill holes? It is pretty close to impossible to draft and nurture talent and make sure they become that impact player the franchise desperate requires. If a Big C was available for the Habs and they didn't even try and sign them, filling the biggest hole they've had in 20 years, you wouldn't think "wtf is going on with them"? Having great players that you drafted at a discount because you believe in them and you take a risk, allows that franchise to go out and sign a Parise, Hossa. Yes their contracts look crazy, but that is the UFA market, you are in a bidding war. With your own RFAs, you don't have to compete against other franchises, which means the value isn't driven up by the market, supply demand.

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04-05-2013, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
That happened because of an administrative mistake

Furthermore, the habs have been a playoff team every year since their cup and they've managed to lock up their core players to long term deals

So not sure I agree at all here... And at worst, ONE example does t change what I said

It' a myth
I said cap mistake. Cap mistake can be anything. If it happened because of an administrative mistake, then it can also happen because of cap mismanagement.

And yes, one example does change what you said. It's not a myth if it's happened before. Repeating it won't make it so either.

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04-05-2013, 06:39 PM
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PK has been playing some good Hockey -

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04-05-2013, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
That happened because of an administrative mistake

Furthermore, the habs have been a playoff team every year since their cup and they've managed to lock up their core players to long term deals

So not sure I agree at all here... And at worst, ONE example does t change what I said

It' a myth
Wow, you talking about the Blackhawks. Really? They locked up their 2 talented forwards and their Norris Trophy winner to long term deals coming out of their ELC. Kane, Toews and Keith are all on long term deals.

You want to use them as your stick of success, well you better realize that what you say is not important, is exactly how they were able to stay competitive.

Kane is the 25th highest paid forward, he is 5th in scoring. 5th highest paid forward is Nash at 7.8 million. Save 1.5M
Toews is 25th highest paid forward, he is 10th in scoring. Can't ignore the Selke he won and will continue to win, but for argument sake, ignore this. 10th highest paid forward is Stamkos at 7.5 million. Save 1.2M
Keith is the 16th highest paid D, he is 12th in scoring, not to mention has a Norris that Chara and Karlsson have that make more than him. 12th highest paid D is Seabrook. Save 300K

Total savings of 3M for 3 player this year. With them signed long term, this could mean even more savings with other players signing for more money if the cap rises again.


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04-05-2013, 06:43 PM
  #772
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Man, are you doing this on purpose or are you really that clueless?

Signing your RFAs to cheaper deals gives you more cash to spend on the open market, where players are a lot more expensive.
If you end up paying your RFAs just as much as UFAs, you gain no advantage.

Having star players locked up at a cheap price is a luxury. It makes things simpler. That's all. I mean really, you can't possibly deny that. Let it go already.
clueless ? coming from you that must be a joke...

Refusing to even look at other possibilities, other options, other ways of doing things... doesnt sound like someone with much clue.

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04-05-2013, 06:44 PM
  #773
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Well if you don't have those RFAs locked up to cheaper deals you won't be able to overpay as much on those free agents.
At the end nothing changes, we will be a cap team. Same amount of cash will be dished out. But how that cash is distributed among the players is important.

To maximize talent, you need that homegrown talent signed for cheaper, so you can overspend when you have no choice but to do so. You hit the UFA market and you will have to overpay, there's no way around it.
Your homegrown talent though, you don't have to overpay there. And the least money overspent there means more cash for the open market.
So like I said... It's less about money and salaries and more about player evaluation

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04-05-2013, 06:45 PM
  #774
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clueless ? coming from you that must be a joke...

Refusing to even look at other possibilities, other options, other ways of doing things... doesnt sound like someone with much clue.
Solid argument.

''I'm not clueless..you are''


Great job kiddo.

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04-05-2013, 06:45 PM
  #775
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
They will spend more on one player and subsequently have less for another. Are you joking with him or did you really not understand his explanation? I'm not sure everyone in this discussion is on the same page.

Spending to the cap is going to happen, but spending to the cap with Subban signed on his bridge deal at 2.875 means that when this contract is done he will be getting close to a 250% raise (about 7.2 M a year). So that means the Habs need to find close to 5 M in cap space to get him under the cap. Some will say getting rid of Kaberle, etc... But what if he was making 5.75 for the next 6 years? We would have the cap space this year to handle it. Next year the Habs have a Norris Trophy Candidate with a strong possibility to win it, at 5.75 which allows you extra room to fill in other holes since you have the reigning best D in the league at a 5.75 bargain. And the wonderful thing is, he is paid like a star, earning 6.5, 7 and 7.5 M in year 4 to 6 of the deal.

The future is now and taking the risk on Subban was the best option. Again this risk is not for every player coming out of their ELC.
the explanation makes no sense for anyone who had to do some management at some point.

saving $ ? how about re-signing the Gallagher, Galchenuyk, and other youngsters to bridge contract, you'll save more than the "extra" spent on Subban...

in a year, you'll save by not having Gionta and kaberle (probably bought out before that), probably replaced by youngsters who cost less, then a year or two later it will be Prust and Moen, again replaced by other youngsters... by then, 4 or 5 years, you'll save by not having Plekanec on the team, replaced by other youngsters, and so on...


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