HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Subban's play since coming back Part 2

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-05-2013, 06:47 PM
  #776
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 21,005
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
So like I said... It's less about money and salaries and more about player evaluation
Everything is related.

But if the management's evaluation of PK was that he was not worth more than a bridge deal worth a little over 5M, then that's some bad evaluation.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 06:48 PM
  #777
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 18,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Wow, you talking about the Blackhawks. Really? They locked up their 2 talented forwards and their Norris Trophy winner to long term deals coming out of their ELC. Kane, Toews and Keith are all on long term deals.

You want to use them as your stick of success, well you better realize that what you say is not important, is exactly how they were able to stay competitive.
Not sure I follow here... He said the hawks are an example of a team that wentunder bbecause of bad cap management

I argued that the hawk have been able to keep the nucleus of their team and remain a playoff team every year since they won the cup

If that's your definition of the proverbial 'salary cap hell'

Then I'll take salary cap Hell every year then

417 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 06:51 PM
  #778
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 13,978
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Not sure I follow here... He said the hawks are an example of a team that wentunder bbecause of bad cap management

I argued that the hawk have been able to keep the nucleus of their team and remain a playoff team every year since they won the cup

If that's your definition of the proverbial 'salary cap hell'

Then I'll take salary cap Hell every year then
They were a possible dynasty.

If they had kept Niemi, Byfuglien, Ladd, Versteeg, they would have been a much much better team.

I didn't think I had to point out the obvious but I guess I do.

E = CH² is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 06:52 PM
  #779
ECWHSWI
P.K. is perfect.
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,107
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Solid argument.

''I'm not clueless..you are''


Great job kiddo.
lol.

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 06:52 PM
  #780
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 21,005
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
They were a possible dynasty.

If they had kept Niemi, Byfuglien, Ladd, Versteeg, they would have been a much much better team.

I didn't think I had to point out the obvious but I guess I do.
I don't understand the complexity..

It's so simple to understand and is entirely logical..

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 06:54 PM
  #781
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 18,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Everything is related.

But if the management's evaluation of PK was that he was not worth more than a bridge deal worth a little over 5M, then that's some bad evaluation.
I'd like to think they were just respecting the teams hierarchy...

417 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 06:55 PM
  #782
ECWHSWI
P.K. is perfect.
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,107
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
They were a possible dynasty.

If they had kept Niemi, Byfuglien, Ladd, Versteeg, they would have been a much much better team.

I didn't think I had to point out the obvious but I guess I do.
had they saved a few $ by signing the kids to bridge deals, they could have enough $ to spend on a few of them...

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 06:57 PM
  #783
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 21,005
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'd like to think they were just respecting the teams hierarchy...
There was no hierarchy. They're a new administration. But I don't believe in this, I think player negotiation is a case by case situation.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 06:59 PM
  #784
Hackett
HF Needs Feeny
 
Hackett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,852
vCash: 500
I think subban's play has slipped a bit recently. I don't think its something to worry about though, its probably just a bit of a lull.

When he tries things and miraculously escapes pressure, he looks like a legend. Other times, he coughs the puck up in a bad spot when there was a much simpler option available.

Lately, its been more of the latter. Anyways, like I said, its not gotten to the point where its a concern, though.

Hackett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 06:59 PM
  #785
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 18,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
They were a possible dynasty.

If they had kept Niemi, Byfuglien, Ladd, Versteeg, they would have been a much much better team.

I didn't think I had to point out the obvious but I guess I do.
Come on man... Do you REALLY think they wld of been able to keep all of

Kane, Toews, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, Holland, hossa AND Byfuglien AND Ladd AND Versteeg???

Yeah... That's realistic

417 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:01 PM
  #786
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 18,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't understand the complexity..

It's so simple to understand and is entirely logical..
You think it's logical that they wld of been able to keep all those players??

Yeah lol makes total sense lol

Come on... You're usually better than that

417 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:02 PM
  #787
Dr Gonzo
#1 Jan Bulis Fan
 
Dr Gonzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bat Country
Posts: 4,271
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
I think subban's play has slipped a bit recently. I don't think its something to worry about though, its probably just a bit of a lull.

When he tries things and miraculously escapes pressure, he looks like a legend. Other times, he coughs the puck up in a bad spot when there was a much simpler option available.

Lately, its been more of the latter. Anyways, like I said, its not gotten to the point where its a concern, though.
I dunno, 8 points in his last 5 games. Was only on the ice for 1 ES goal during that time (maaaaaybe 2, I'd have to re-check it).

He does try high risk/reward plays, but that's what makes him the great player that he is, because more often than not they work out.

Dr Gonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:04 PM
  #788
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 13,978
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Come on man... Do you REALLY think they wld of been able to keep all of

Kane, Toews, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, Holland, hossa AND Byfuglien AND Ladd AND Versteeg???

Yeah... That's realistic
Ok, maybe they could have kept one or two more of those they lost without any mistake...

So clearly they were affected.

That's the point people are making and that you seem to not want to understand.

E = CH² is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:05 PM
  #789
CrAzYNiNe
Registered User
 
CrAzYNiNe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,919
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CrAzYNiNe
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
the explanation makes no sense for anyone who had to do some management at some point.

saving $ ? how about re-signing the Gallagher, Galchenuyk, and other youngsters to bridge contract, you'll save more than the "extra" spent on Subban...

in a year, you'll save by not having Gionta and kaberle (probably bought out before that), probably replaced by youngsters who cost less, then a year or two later it will be Prust and Moen, again replaced by other youngsters... by then, 4 or 5 years, you'll save by not having Plekanec on the team, replaced by other youngsters, and so on...
I'm sorry but I can't agree with your logic. By having a lower cap hit on a Subban contract helps let the Habs afford other players if they require a significant raise. For simple explanation, a team is made up of two player and the cap is 12 M. If one player makes 6, the other can now make 6, but if one player makes 7, he may be just as good if he made 6, but he takes up 7. Now when you are looking for a player to fill that whole, you have to sign a player for 5. I know my explanation sounds absurdly simple and redundent, but I don't understand where you lose sight that having Subban on a long term deal will help the Habs in the future. In 2 years, the only Habs defensemen under contract is Gorges. Which means that they will sign Subban to 7+ M a year, and will have 1.5 M less than they could of had if he signed for 5.5 M. Like you said, the money will be spent to the cap, but how it is distributed is so very important.

Now to you're explanation about players leaving, well it doesn't hold any weight. Saying that our players are simply going to vanish into UFA, without the Habs wanting to keep them is absurd. Thinking our draft picks are all going to develop and come in 1 or 2 at a time, year in and year out is simply not sustainable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Not sure I follow here... He said the hawks are an example of a team that wentunder bbecause of bad cap management

I argued that the hawk have been able to keep the nucleus of their team and remain a playoff team every year since they won the cup

If that's your definition of the proverbial 'salary cap hell'

Then I'll take salary cap Hell every year then
Tallon made mistakes with bonuses, they were penalized on their cap ceiling, it was lower than other teams for 2 years. He also didn't tender 2 RFAs, which he than had to pay UFA $ instead of their qualifying offer.

If it wasn't for him having 3 players on a discount (At the time they may not have looked like discounts), they would be losers again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
They were a possible dynasty.

If they had kept Niemi, Byfuglien, Ladd, Versteeg, they would have been a much much better team.

I didn't think I had to point out the obvious but I guess I do.
Ya they had to get rid of some really talented players due to mismanaging the cap, and yet because of some good management, they were able to salvage, but not after some significant loss.

CrAzYNiNe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:06 PM
  #790
HABSonaroll
Registered User
 
HABSonaroll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
I think subban's play has slipped a bit recently. I don't think its something to worry about though, its probably just a bit of a lull.

When he tries things and miraculously escapes pressure, he looks like a legend. Other times, he coughs the puck up in a bad spot when there was a much simpler option available.

Lately, its been more of the latter. Anyways, like I said, its not gotten to the point where its a concern, though.
Gotta pick his spots when to throw a hit - He's actually been playing good

HABSonaroll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:06 PM
  #791
Hackett
HF Needs Feeny
 
Hackett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,852
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I dunno, 8 points in his last 5 games. Was only on the ice for 1 ES goal during that time (maaaaaybe 2, I'd have to re-check it).

He does try high risk/reward plays, but that's what makes him the great player that he is, because more often than not they work out.
Yeah, I think that's why its not to the point of being a concern yet, because it hasn't cost the team on the scoreboard.

I have no worries about his offensive production. Tough to complain when you are producing at a rate that even karlsson would admire.

Anyways, good to talk talk about his actual on ice play rather than the contract for a change. I've had my fill of that.

Hackett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:07 PM
  #792
CrAzYNiNe
Registered User
 
CrAzYNiNe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,919
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CrAzYNiNe
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
had they saved a few $ by signing the kids to bridge deals, they could have enough $ to spend on a few of them...
And lose them after because they won't have the available room when the bridge is over and they all require 8+M contracts...

CrAzYNiNe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:08 PM
  #793
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 13,978
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
And lose them after because they won't have the available room when the bridge is over and they all require 8+M contracts...
ECWH knows he's being silly, do not feed him

E = CH² is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:12 PM
  #794
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 18,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Ok, maybe they could have kept one or two more of those they lost without any mistake...

So clearly they were affected.

That's the point people are making and that you seem to not want to understand.
So because you think they COULD have kept one or two... It means so you're making a valid point? Lol

Dear God lol

417 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:14 PM
  #795
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 13,978
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
So because you think they COULD have kept one or two... It means so you're making a valid point? Lol

Dear God lol
Dude... you're being obtuse on purpose now. They DEFINITELY could have kept niemi with 2-3M more... it was close.

Whatever. You are just being hard headed and I don't feel like wasting time on this.

E = CH² is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:18 PM
  #796
ECWHSWI
P.K. is perfect.
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,107
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
And lose them after because they won't have the available room when the bridge is over and they all require 8+M contracts...
they signed for 6.3 at 21 (I think), having them at a lower salary for another four or five years insted of their 6.3 salary would have meant Hawks being cup contenders for 4 or 5 more years, maybe winning another cup or two...

easily worth the risk.

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:19 PM
  #797
ECWHSWI
P.K. is perfect.
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,107
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Dude... you're being obtuse on purpose now. They DEFINITELY could have kept niemi with 2-3M more... it was close.

Whatever. You are just being hard headed and I don't feel like wasting time on this.
had they saved on bridge contracts instead of signing their youngsters long term right away, Niemi would probably still be a Hawks right now...

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:24 PM
  #798
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 18,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Dude... you're being obtuse on purpose now. They DEFINITELY could have kept niemi with 2-3M more... it was close.

Whatever. You are just being hard headed and I don't feel like wasting time on this.
If I'm being obtuse... It's because you're making me

You're making an assumption and trying to act like it's a definite when in reality, you have no clue

Look at the names you mentioned... How on earth do you think they wld of been able to keep all of them... Hell losing those guys allowed them to sign Hossa whose a much better player then the players they lost

Again... If that's salary cap hell, where do the habs sign up???

417 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:26 PM
  #799
CrAzYNiNe
Registered User
 
CrAzYNiNe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,919
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CrAzYNiNe
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
they signed for 6.3 at 21 (I think), having them at a lower salary for another four or five years insted of their 6.3 salary would have meant Hawks being cup contenders for 4 or 5 more years, maybe winning another cup or two...

easily worth the risk.
In the year Kane received his contract, he previously won the Stanley Cup, finished 9th in scoring for the regular season with 88 pts. Toews finished with 68 pts, first 3 seasons in the league he had 50 pts or more and won the Conn Smythe and the Olympic Gold medal before his new contract. Keith won the Norris. How on earth do you approach these 3 and say "Hey guys, I know you haven't proven enough to us, so we are going to offer you a bridge deal, do you understand why?"

Come on man, how do you offer a top 10 scoring leader, at only 21 years old a bridge contract? How do you offer your Conn Smythe winning CAPTAIN a bridge contract? How do you offer your Norris winning D a bridge contract?

I guess they had more to prove...

CrAzYNiNe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2013, 07:27 PM
  #800
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 13,978
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
If I'm being obtuse... It's because you're making me

You're making an assumption and trying to act like it's a definite when in reality, you have no clue

Look at the names you mentioned... How on earth do you think they wld of been able to keep all of them... Hell losing those guys allowed them to sign Hossa whose a much better player then the players they lost

Again... If that's salary cap hell, where do the habs sign up???
1. They already had Hossa.
2. You have zero clue what you are talking about.

I'm done here.

E = CH² is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:29 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.