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Subban's play since coming back Part 2

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04-05-2013, 07:28 PM
  #801
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
1. They already had Hossa.
2. You have zero clue what you are talking about.

I'm done here.
It's quite frightening that they are unable to understand what we are saying.

Has anyone ever heard of the "bridge contract" term before it was used in the media for the Subban negotiations? I never remember hearing it before.

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04-05-2013, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I'm sorry but I can't agree with your logic. By having a lower cap hit on a Subban contract helps let the Habs afford other players if they require a significant raise. For simple explanation, a team is made up of two player and the cap is 12 M. If one player makes 6, the other can now make 6, but if one player makes 7, he may be just as good if he made 6, but he takes up 7. Now when you are looking for a player to fill that whole, you have to sign a player for 5. I know my explanation sounds absurdly simple and redundent, but I don't understand where you lose sight that having Subban on a long term deal will help the Habs in the future. In 2 years, the only Habs defensemen under contract is Gorges. Which means that they will sign Subban to 7+ M a year, and will have 1.5 M less than they could of had if he signed for 5.5 M. Like you said, the money will be spent to the cap, but how it is distributed is so very important.
by making PK play trough a bridge contract they guarantee themselves (in theory at least) that our other youngsters such as Beaulieu, Patteryn, Tinordi WILL accept lower salaries for a few years as it will be their bridge contract... and since at least one of them will play on our top 6 by then, it's a good thing.

what do you do if Beaulieu turn out as good as Subban, sign him for 5.5 in two years ? I mean, he'll have the right to ask for it as a precedent would have been set...

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04-05-2013, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
by making PK play trough a bridge contract they guarantee themselves (in theory at least) that our other youngsters such as Beaulieu, Patteryn, Tinordi WILL accept lower salaries for a few years as it will be their bridge contract... and since at least one of them will play on our top 6 by then, it's a good thing.

what do you do if Beaulieu turn out as good as Subban, sign him for 5.5 in two years ? I mean, he'll have the right to ask for it as a precedent would have been set...
Why do other players need Subban to have a bridge contract for them to have one? Subban is one of a kind! If they can produce Norris like numbers, be our most responsible player defensively, than yes they deserve a contract similar to his, but don't kid yourself, this really isn't a possibility. None of them are even close to Subban and they are of similar age. You have to play like Subban to compare yourself to his contract.

Beaulieu hasn't shown the progress Subban has. Without a doubt, he will not be as good as Subban, as fast. The guy is a Norris candidate for christ sake. You think the Habs franchise are going to spit out Norris candidates because Subban is? Come on...

Enough with the "what if" that come out of no where. Subban has played to a high caliber and thinking he will get better was rational. Thinking that one of the D you mention is going to come in and take the league by storm, when not even taking the AHL by storm is irrational.

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04-05-2013, 07:41 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Why do other players need Subban to have a bridge contract for them to have one? Subban is one of a kind! If they can produce Norris like numbers, be our most responsible player defensively, than who ever else deserves a big contract. None of them are even close to Subban and they are of similar age. You have to play like Subban to compare yourself to his contract.

Beaulieu hasn't shown the progress Subban has. Without a doubt, he will not be as good as Subban. The guy is a Norris candidate for christ sake. You think the Habs franchise are going to spit out Norris candidates because Subban is? Come on...
You're being naive if you think agents of our other youngsters wouldnt use PK (long term) contract to get more for their client... wether it's more years or more money (and maybe both)

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04-05-2013, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
You're being naive if you think agents of our other youngsters wouldnt use PK (long term) contract to get more for their client... wether it's more years or more money (and maybe both)
You're naive to think that agents are going to use a player that their client doesn't hold a candle too.

"Hi Mr. Bergevin. We see here that you signed a young defensemen named Pernell Karl Subban to a long term, lucrative deal. Our client is also a young defensemen, so pay him the same."

Like I said, completely irrational logic.

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04-05-2013, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
It's quite frightening that they are unable to understand what we are saying.

Has anyone ever heard of the "bridge contract" term before it was used in the media for the Subban negotiations? I never remember hearing it before.
Better just to let it go at this point.

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04-05-2013, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Better just to let it go at this point.
I'm waiting for my gf to come home. At this point it's either this or NHL 13.

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04-05-2013, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
You're naive to think that agents are going to use a player that their client doesn't hold a candle too.

"Hi Mr. Bergevin. We see here that you signed a young defensemen named Pernell Karl Subban to a lorn term deal. Our client is also a young defensemen, so pay him the same."

Like I said, completely irrational logic.
You're right, but you're not explaining why you're right. I believe that would be faulty analogy fallacy - claiming that other young defensemen should be paid the same.

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04-05-2013, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
You're naive to think that agents are going to use a player that their client doesn't hold a candle too.

"Hi Mr. Bergevin. We see here that you signed a young defensemen named Pernell Karl Subban to a long term, lucrative deal. Our client is also a young defensemen, so pay him the same."

Like I said, completely irrational logic.
missed the point, completely...

dont have to be the exact same. Let's put it this way, after his last two seasons, MB sign PK to long term deal worth 5.5 per (instead of a bridge). in two years, after two full NHL seasons, Beaulieu isnt as good but is close, average 30 pts a season, decent defensively and al...

well, MB gave 5.5 to PK, you think Beaulieu agent wouldnt ask for 4 or 4.5 for 5 or 6 years ? really ?

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04-05-2013, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
You're right, but you're not explaining why you're right. I believe that would be faulty analogy fallacy - claiming that other young defensemen should be paid the same.
No one should be paid like Subban, compared to Subban... He is out best D in 20-30 years, and here someone is going to believe that an agent will use the contract of a Norris trophy candidate to boost his client who barely played in NHL games.

It just doesn't make any sense.

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04-05-2013, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
missed the point, completely...

dont have to be the exact same. Let's put it this way, after his last two seasons, MB sign PK to long term deal worth 5.5 per (instead of a bridge). in two years, after two full NHL seasons, Beaulieu isnt as good but is close, average 30 pts a season, decent defensively and al...

well, MB gave 5.5 to PK, you think Beaulieu agent wouldnt ask for 4 or 4.5 for 5 or 6 years ? really ?
Maybe they all ask for Gorges type money. 4 mill.

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04-05-2013, 07:59 PM
  #812
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
1. They already had Hossa.
2. You have zero clue what you are talking about.

I'm done here.
Oh yes my bad... Regardless though

My point still stands, they lost those players because of a clerical mistake and either, way, they wldnt of been able to keep all those players, including Hossa long term

They had to make moves likes all other teams in the nhl... At one point, the habs will have to make tough decisions on some of their core players... That's the nhl, you can't keep everyone

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04-05-2013, 08:04 PM
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Maybe they all ask for Gorges type money. 4 mill.
if the kid bring some offense, something Gorges can't do, you can bet he'll ask for more.

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04-05-2013, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
No one should be paid like Subban, compared to Subban... He is out best D in 20-30 years, and here someone is going to believe that an agent will use the contract of a Norris trophy candidate to boost his client who barely played in NHL games.

It just doesn't make any sense.
was he a Norris candidate his first two seasons ?

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04-05-2013, 08:05 PM
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if the kid bring some offense, something Gorges can't do, you can bet he'll ask for more.
Like P.K. .? He deserves a lot more than Gorges. Its crazy that he makes less.

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04-05-2013, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
missed the point, completely...

dont have to be the exact same. Let's put it this way, after his last two seasons, MB sign PK to long term deal worth 5.5 per (instead of a bridge). in two years, after two full NHL seasons, Beaulieu isnt as good but is close, average 30 pts a season, decent defensively and al...

well, MB gave 5.5 to PK, you think Beaulieu agent wouldnt ask for 4 or 4.5 for 5 or 6 years ? really ?
OK, I like this better, I can see where you are going.

To be honest, that would be fantastic for the Habs. If he is similar to PK, the drive is there, the play is there, absolutely give him a long term deal. Obviously we are talking about the best and most amazing scenario here.

I am not afraid to give long term deals out of ELC to players who can prove they want to win and play like that. The reality is we haven't had a player come up like Subban since Koivu.

Within 3 years of being drafted, Subban made an impact in the NHL in the playoffs against Crosby. That is when it started for me and I knew he was going to be special. Koivu was a dominant player for the Habs, 4 years after being drafted. How many players have made an impact to the habs so quickly after being drafted and to the extent of Subban and Koivu?

It took Plekanec 6 years to make it, and on his 7th he was one of our leading scorers. Who else? Andrei Kostitsyn? 5 years to be up decent numbers, not great numbers like Koivu and even Plekanec, but at an older age. Price and Pacioretty do not comapre.

If Beaulieu is another 1 in 20 years type of player, as you alluded to in effort to make a point, yes sign him to a long term deal. ONLY if he is a 1 in 20 years type of player like Koivu and Subban.

The Habs franchise would be so lucky.

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04-05-2013, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
was he a Norris candidate his first two seasons ?
This is the part where I go on faith. He wasn't until this year, it was the way he continued to get better that I found faith in his progress. There are two possible outcomes, being right or being wrong. I thought he could be a Norris candidate at some point in his career, specifically within this 6 year contract (my fictional 6 year contract). The way Subban played in his first 2 years, I gave him around a 4 M $ contract. After that the salary increased to equate the learning curve I thought he was on. Well he went and surprised us all and has come into being this "complete" package player.

Was he a Norris candidate in his first 2 years? No. Was I justified in believing that one day, this player will be a Norris candidate? Yes. Because of faith. (I'm not talking religious faith, I'm talking definition of faith: "confidence or trust in a person or thing"). The person that he is, the way he personifies himself as a hard worker. His ability on the ice, his performances against some of the best in the game, his desire to get better after every season, learning from his mistakes. These players are very rare, I have a hard time thinking another one is right around the corner.

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04-05-2013, 08:21 PM
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OK, I like this better, I can see where you are going.

To be honest, that would be fantastic for the Habs. If he is similar to PK, the drive is there, the play is there, absolutely give him a long term deal. Obviously we are talking about the best and most amazing scenario here.

I am not afraid to give long term deals out of ELC to players who can prove they want to win and play like that. The reality is we haven't had a player come up like Subban since Koivu.

Within 3 years of being drafted, Subban made an impact in the NHL in the playoffs against Crosby. That is when it started for me and I knew he was going to be special. Koivu was a dominant player for the Habs, 4 years after being drafted. How many players have made an impact to the habs so quickly after being drafted and to the extent of Subban and Koivu?

It took Plekanec 6 years to make it, and on his 7th he was one of our leading scorers. Who else? Andrei Kostitsyn? 5 years to be up decent numbers, not great numbers like Koivu and even Plekanec, but at an older age. Price and Pacioretty do not comapre.

If Beaulieu is another 1 in 20 years type of player, as you alluded to in effort to make a point, yes sign him to a long term deal. ONLY if he is a 1 in 20 years type of player like Koivu and Subban.

The Habs franchise would be so lucky.
it STARTS with P.K., you give him long term, others will want long term. maybe not the same money or term but they will ask for it.

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04-05-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
it STARTS with P.K., you give him long term, others will want long term. maybe not the same money or term but they will ask for it.
So what if they ask for it? They are not even close to where PK is at the end of his ELC. You get what you deserve. PK deserved a long term deal. Tom Dick or Harry don't get the same treatment unless they are 1 in 20 year prospect like Subban is!

Come on, it's asinine to believe that another player coming up in the next 3-4 years will have the same impact as Subban. And even worse, if they did have the impact as Subban, you wouldn't want to give them a long term deal!

No other prospect will be able to use Subban deal as a bar setter.

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04-05-2013, 08:27 PM
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So what if they ask for it? They are not even close to where PK is at the end of his ELC. You get what you deserve. PK deserved a long term deal. Tom Dick or Harry don't get the same treatment unless they are 1 in 20 year prospect like Subban is!

Come on, it's asinine to believe that another player coming up in the next 3-4 years will have the same impact as Subban. And even worse, if they did have the impact as Subban, you wouldn't want to give them a long term deal!

No other prospect will be able to use Subban deal as a bar setter.
it's irrelevant. they're slightly less talented ? fine they'll ask for slightly less.

None of them will come in MB office and say "well you gave PK a long term deal (instead of bridge) but i'm not as good so I'll be ok with a bridge contract"...

come on now...

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04-05-2013, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
it's irrelevant. they're slightly less talented ? fine they'll ask for slightly less.

None of them will come in MB office and say "well you gave PK a long term deal (instead of bridge) but i'm not as good so I'll be ok with a bridge contract"...

come on now...
Yes, they are not as good. At that point in any of our young guys careers, when they are at the same as Subban is, they will not be as good.

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04-05-2013, 09:14 PM
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Yes, they are not as good. At that point in any of our young guys careers, when they are at the same as Subban is, they will not be as good.
irrelevant

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04-05-2013, 09:21 PM
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irrelevant
How is the comparison between two players that are being compared irrelevant?

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04-05-2013, 09:32 PM
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How is the comparison between two players that are being compared irrelevant?
cause in the end, if you give up (for PK) you'll have to give up for others as well...

and having a bunch of kids making 4.5, 5, 6 and 7 Mil isnt a good thing when you want to be competitive.

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04-05-2013, 09:38 PM
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cause in the end, if you give up (for PK) you'll have to give up for others as well...

and having a bunch of kids making 4.5, 5, 6 and 7 Mil isnt a good thing when you want to be competitive.
P.k. Is perfect, you mean the penalty kill or Subban?

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