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Jake Gardiner's Future

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Old
04-05-2013, 07:43 PM
  #51
InterceptSchenn
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Rather Carlyle get fired before we trade Gards. It is clearly a personal things against Jake with Randy. There is simply no reason to have Kostka in there before Jake. Its personal. Randlol doesnt like him.

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04-05-2013, 07:52 PM
  #52
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With the Leafs on the verge of making the post-season for the first time in nearly a decade, coaching decisions are about to get reallllly short-term. And that's fine. It really won't matter much in the long-term.

You know what this all boils down to? Handedness. Gardiner is a lefty.

<lefty> - <righty>
Fraser - Franson
Gunnarson - Phaneuf (left)
Liles - O'Bryne

The reason Kostka got a shot with Phaneuf is because he is a righty and better defensively than Gardiner. Same about Holzer -- also a righty.

So... on the lefties... who do you replace? Fraser? Gunnarson? Liles? Phaneuf?

The Leafs probably have to get rid of a left-handed defenceman in the off-season. Gunnarson or Liles are probably the odd-man out... or Gardiner, but I doubt that.

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04-05-2013, 07:53 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by InterceptSchenn View Post
Rather Carlyle get fired before we trade Gards. It is clearly a personal things against Jake with Randy. There is simply no reason to have Kostka in there before Jake. Its personal. Randlol doesnt like him.
I think of the Lupul situation in Anaheim as an example of Carlyle having a one liner evaluation of a player that's hard to shake: "He can play for me" or "he can't play for me."

I mean, they did go out and trade for O'Byrne, who probably doesn't add anything Komisarek doesn't already give the organization, but clearly he doesn't like Mike.

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04-05-2013, 07:53 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by SpeakerForTheDead View Post
But, in 2010 when they made the playoffs, Fowler was with the team right from camp and didn't have to be sent to the AHL to get back into playing shape. So, the team was clearly playoff-bound even with Fowler's rookie mistakes.

In 2011, the team was clearly out of the playoffs so allowing Fowler to grow and learn while on the ice didn't have an impact on their playoff chances. Different situations.

If, Gardiner wasn't waiver-eligible, he would be on the Marlies right now continuing to develop.

And again, it has only been 3 games where Gardiner has been healthy scratched. That is nothing in the long-run. Also, to the guy who said Gardiner won't re-sign with us as UFA over these last 3 games, that is just absurd. Do you hold a grudge with your boss due to a week-long incident from 5 years ago?
Got to it before I did.

Gards is fine, we'll be fine. Be patient folks.

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04-05-2013, 07:56 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by sommervr View Post
How this for a prediction: he gets traded on draft day as part of a package to move up to get Max Domi
Max Domi is said to have Crosby-esque in many ways. He's really strong for his size with impressive lower body strength. In sum, a skilled guy with a lot of heart. Nevertheless, I'd rather trade up for someone like Robert Hagg who is going to develop into those Swedish two-way #1Ds that everyone wants.


However, I wouldn't be trading Gardiner. He looks like a top pairing defenceman. The problem is, he really needs to develop his play on his own end. Since we're a playoff contender, we really can't be putting a guy that weak on his end on the ice. Simply, he needs to develop his game without the puck.

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04-05-2013, 08:00 PM
  #56
Stephen
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Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
Max Domi is said to have Crosby-esque in many ways. He's really strong for his size with impressive lower body strength. In sum, a skilled guy with a lot of heart. Nevertheless, I'd rather trade up for someone like Robert Hagg who is going to develop into those Swedish two-way #1Ds that everyone wants.


However, I wouldn't be trading Gardiner. He looks like a top pairing defenceman. The problem is, he really needs to develop his play on his own end. Since we're a playoff contender, we really can't be putting a guy that weak on his end on the ice. Simply, he needs to develop his game without the puck.
I wouldn't want to trade him either. I have a soft spot for young offensive defensemen, but the stars seem to be crossed with them and Toronto more often than not, case in point Bryan Berard, Kenny Jonsson, all those kids in the 80s, and weirdly enough, Randy Carlyle...

Key for me if it happens is we get great assets back.

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04-05-2013, 08:00 PM
  #57
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The way I look at it is Gards and Liles are competing for the same spot. We know Carlyle likes his lefties and righties to play their natural side. We also know that he likes his balance of skilled, puck moving offensive defensemen and rugged, physical defensive defensemen. So with Gards and Liles both being left handed, offensive defensemen, they are both competing for that 2nd pairing spot on the left side. As of late, Liles is outplaying Gardiner and giving us the best chance to win by bringing both offensive upside as well as half-decent defensive play. It's not some personal agenda that Carlyle has against Gardiner.

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04-05-2013, 08:03 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Terrence View Post
The way I look at it is Gards and Liles are competing for the same spot. We know Carlyle likes his lefties and righties to play their natural side. We also know that he likes his balance of skilled, puck moving offensive defensemen and rugged, physical defensive defensemen. So with Gards and Liles both being left handed, offensive defensemen, they are both competing for that 2nd pairing spot on the left side. As of late, Liles is outplaying Gardiner and giving us the best chance to win by bringing both offensive upside as well as half-decent defensive play. It's not some personal agenda that Carlyle has against Gardiner.
he played Dion on his wrong side for like the first 25 games did he not?

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04-05-2013, 08:03 PM
  #59
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Carlyle said that Gardiner is ready to play, however they are going to try him on the other side (right I think?) and are working with him in practice to improve his defensive play.

There was such an uproar to get him up by fans, media, his agent that Carlyle was left with no choice but to call him up. So now he isn't ready, and can't go down to the marlies to get playing time.

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04-05-2013, 08:08 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by InterceptSchenn View Post
he played Dion on his wrong side for like the first 25 games did he not?
Just speculating here, but he probably tried that because Phaneuf shoots left and he wanted him to play his "natural" side. But after 25 games or so after trying both Holzer and Kostka, he probably realized that his only half-decent right handed d-man was Franson. But he didn't want to break up the Fraser-Franson pairing because it has worked fairly well as a 3rd pairing. So he moved Dion back to the right side and put Gunnar on the 1st pairing like it was for the majority of last season.

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04-05-2013, 08:08 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
Carlyle said that Gardiner is ready to play, however they are going to try him on the other side (right I think?) and are working with him in practice to improve his defensive play.

There was such an uproar to get him up by fans, media, his agent that Carlyle was left with no choice but to call him up. So now he isn't ready, and can't go down to the marlies to get playing time.
I actually rather see him practice in the NHL than spend more time in the AHL at a level he doesn't have to work hard to be effective in...

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04-05-2013, 08:09 PM
  #62
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Dion Gardiner
Liles - Obyrne
Fraser Franson
Gunnar



Why not play 7D?

JVR Blowzak Kessel
Mac - kadri - Kuli
Frattin - Grabo - Mcclement
Komarov mclaren

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04-05-2013, 08:22 PM
  #63
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When I watched a bit of the game-day Practice yesterday and I focused on gardiner, 2 things stood out

1) When randy was explaining stuff, he was near the back of the huddle, probably doesn't say much but there's a lack of communication forsure; esp since randy doesn't tell the media anything.
2) Gardiner has the best shot amongst D-men. Gardiners 1-timer is still fast and quick. Frasers was the worst, unaccurate and slow (but as expected).

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04-05-2013, 08:24 PM
  #64
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Some of you guys are way to quick to spin up a conspiracy and get your panties in a twist... Trading... Firing... How about patience and let the kid shore up his game?

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04-05-2013, 08:32 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InterceptSchenn View Post
Dion Gardiner
Liles - Obyrne
Fraser Franson
Gunnar



Why not play 7D?

JVR Blowzak Kessel
Mac - kadri - Kuli
Frattin - Grabo - Mcclement
Komarov mclaren
Cause you would be constantly rotating D and F lines all night to get everyone in and that would just be a disaster.

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04-05-2013, 08:39 PM
  #66
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This year has been ridiculous. It's been like Kadri but even worse. He is so good. It's a total disgrace that he has seen so little ice time. I honestly haven't been more excited by a young player after last season. He should be in there learning the craft and putting up points.

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04-05-2013, 08:48 PM
  #67
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This year has been ridiculous. It's been like Kadri but even worse. He is so good. It's a total disgrace that he has seen so little ice time. I honestly haven't been more excited by a young player after last season. He should be in there learning the craft and putting up points.
I like Gardiner. But at the same time I totally understand why Carlyle might not want to play him. He's just not that strong defensively. And a team like the Leafs, who are fighting tooth and nail for the playoffs, there just isn't any room to put up with the defensive deficiencies of a rookie like Gardiner.
They should have kept him with the Marlies.

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04-05-2013, 09:00 PM
  #68
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I think he'll be fine. If not trade him for a center...Couturier sounds nice, what about Center Johansen from Columbus, another prospect that hasn't flourished in their system

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04-05-2013, 09:08 PM
  #69
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After some of the moves this guy made last year it would be a mistake to trade him.

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04-05-2013, 09:40 PM
  #70
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Several people said the exact same thing with Kadri, Stephen. We got some good heads in our organization and we are patient. Which is needed to develop our kids. Fowler, Sbisa, for the defensemen were raised under Carlyle. Lupul, Selanne, Ryan and now Kessel were also raised in a manner where offense is great but you have to work on your defense no matter what.
This. And yet some people are so willing to move him. Our fan base really is hilarious. He NEEDS time in the minors - all this about it being bad for him is baseless and Kadri is living proof of what some time in the AHL can do to a player's confidence and development. I have no doubt he will become a very strong offensive defenseman - if we have interest in moving up in the draft we have plenty of other guys we can use for that and/or other draft picks but giving up guys like Gardiner so early in their development who show such good raw ability is just insane.

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04-05-2013, 09:44 PM
  #71
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This. And yet some people are so willing to move him. Our fan base really is hilarious. He NEEDS time in the minors - all this about it being bad for him is baseless and Kadri is living proof of what some time in the AHL can do to a player's confidence and development. I have no doubt he will become a very strong offensive defenseman - if we have interest in moving up in the draft we have plenty of other guys we can use for that and/or other draft picks but giving up guys like Gardiner so early in their development who show such good raw ability is just insane.
I don't want to move him, I'm saying I'm resigned to it happening, because he seems like a Modin, Sullivan or Smith who were promising kids who somehow found themselves on the outside looking in when the team started climbing and they didn't fit into what was going on.

Kadri succeeding here this season seems like a bit of a miracle if you listen to the amount of times Burke and co. were willing to throw him out with the bathwater. If Philly, Phoenix and Vancouver had been willing, he'd have been moved for M. Richards, Yandle or Luongo ages ago.

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04-05-2013, 10:07 PM
  #72
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havent read through the thread but the fact of the matter is we've accomplished what we have so far this season no thanks to gardiner. I think he's a great prospect still and can definatly be a top 4 dman in the nhl, but we have a similar styled to him coming up in the next couple years in riley and we can fill a need by moving him. i'd be just as happy keeping him but i could definatly get behind either moving him as the center-piece in a deal to find a centre for kessel and jvr.

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04-05-2013, 11:12 PM
  #73
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I want to start off by saying I literally only read the first paragraph of this thread and that's it.

Carlyle is teaching jake a lesson, that lesson is he needs to get better defensivly (is that a fair lesson? I think so especially for a defender)

Now I realize this is very difficult for most of u but imagine u played a sport, and the coach sat u.... Do u want to prove the coach that he was wrong or do u just sulk (now based on how many pages there is ima assume most of u just sulk)

1. Gards was sent down to ge better, people complain about kadri being down there to long, now they praise him like WHAT THE ****? Did I miss something lmao

2. Now I know people may not like it but this is the new maple leafs, the maple leafs where u don't just make the team based on pedigree isn't that what everyone wants? That means kostka gets a hcance, holzer gets a chance. I don't remember people complaining about JML in the press box and he's doing pretty good.

Bipolar fan base is bipolar wow

Gardiner will dictate when he gets back in the lineup, don't worry he will get back in.

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04-05-2013, 11:20 PM
  #74
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The obvious answer is that Carlyle thinks Kostka over Gardiner gives him a better lineup right now...
I would think Age, Strength, and that he is only an AHL FA signing and not a major piece of a trade all plays a little part into it.

Loisselle was on the radio today saying Gardiner was at the point of belonging in the NHL to LEARN. Well the LEafs are at the point of making the playoffs. Carlyle doesn't have the time to give to a young guy who is here to Learn. The team is quite content to let Gards participate in practice and watch the games, until the time they think he is ready for an everyday role on the team.

Personally I think they want to try and catch lightning in a bottle a second time like they did with Kadri.

Force the talented young star to learn the finer points of the game before giving him a chance and hope he has an MVP type season when he finally gets a shot.

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04-05-2013, 11:29 PM
  #75
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I want to start off by saying that by no means do I think Gardiner is a savior or beyond criticism as a young player, but I do feel like the organization has treated him a little bit strangely this season after the concussion time, the prolonged period in the AHL that probably did him no good, and the healthy scratch at this point.

He hasn't impressed me defensively, or even looked like he's been willing to play with a lot of courage since coming back, but I think he's a guy with enough skill and upside that he should be along for the ride and ups and downs in this quest to make the playoffs. I don't think he needs more minor league grooming. If anything, I think he needs to have some rope to run with to get back into a good NHL rhythm, the way Cody Franson did at the beginning of the year.

That said, I have the feeling like he's being written out of the Leafs long term plans at this point. He's not good enough to risk playing on a team that's putting it together, and there's another prospect in Rielly who might bring a similar and superior game in the near future.

I'd almost liken his situation to Fredrik Modin, Steve Sullivan and Jason Smith, three prospects who seemed to have a bright future in Toronto, but found themselves on the outside looking in under the Pat Quinn system for a variety of shortsighted reasons. I almost expect Gards to be moved at the draft for a forward in another JVR for Schenn type swap. It's not the end of the world if we get back proper value with upside, but it does seem disappointing from the perspetive of how bright a light he looked like last year and early in the AHL season.

How do you see this situation? What are your expectations for Jake Gardiner's future with the Toronto Maple Leafs at this point? Does he stay or go?
I think the organization is doing absolutely the right thing with him. This year we are seeing what benefit there is to giving prospects time to develop. Kadri was brought along slow, and he eventually seized a job when he was ready. I see no reason not to do the same with Gardiner, especially given the injury he was coming back from. It's clear he has things to learn in his own end, he's not on par with the other guys on the team yet. That's why he's sitting. He's pretty good when he has the puck, but without it he's still too much of an adventure.

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