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Mtl - Flyers at Draft

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Old
04-05-2013, 03:27 PM
  #51
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
yet you want Philly to do the same. Trade Couts for 2-3 lesser pieces. No thanks.

Unless Philly gets what they are looking for, they should be holding onto him and let him develop. Trading him for a D-man with similar upside makes sense. And if everyone is so worried about him, stop trying to trade for him.
In case you hadn't noticed, MOST of the Habs fans in this thread ARE NOT trying to trade for him. Most of us have said he is a very good young player with a lot of potential who is having a down year. It is a sophomore slump, most likely.

However, what we have also said is that we do NOT NEED Couturier, especially if the cost is 3 1st rounders with one of them being what we consider to be a blue chip defensive prospect.

So, no, most of us do not want "Philly to do the same", we want Philly to keep Couturier and we will keep Beaulieu, Leblanc, and our 1st in an incredibly deep draft.

Keep in mind, though, that Beaulieu is the kind of defensive prospect the Flyers should definitely try and get their hands on. He is a very good PMD who has a bit of a mean streak. He is capable of big hits and moves the puck well. I am not saying he is fair for Couturier alone, but he is the kind of guy Philly should want. Of course, he should be a Habs player for a good long time unless we get something we NEED. Couturier is NOT that "something".

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04-05-2013, 03:44 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by greenstickytoes View Post
oh you can keep him for another year or 2 till Chucky gets better or even Eller.
they both can easily take his place on the 1st line, especially Eller in a year from
now.
If you say that, you definitely need to give your head a check. How in the hell trading one of the best two-way C in the game would help us with center Depth ?
You know Plekanec has the hardest job on the entire team right ? Eller is a good shutdown C, but if he shuts down opponent thats the only thing he can do right now(Much like coots atm.) Plekanec shutdowns Crosby and even scores 60 points.

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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
If he was available they likely have similar value.
A first pairing Dman for a third liner atm ?...Have you watched enough games of both players ?

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Originally Posted by junyab View Post
You're assuming I forgot them...I have not. Just because we have decent centres in the system doesn't make us "deep". "Deep" would presume no upgrade is needed, and that we could stand up against any team, center for center. This is not the case. "Deep" does not mean "we have lots of". We lack size at center, we lack toughness at center, we lack strong faceoff skills. We don't lack playmaking ability at center. How could we not use an upgrade?!?!

How could anyone think "Leblanc, Dumont, Nattinen, White, Bournival and Vail" make us deep?!!?
Yeah, we lack size IN OUR LINE UP not at center. Let's just look at it this way...
Plekanec is our first C.. How many better C than him are available? None ? Yeah none.
Desharnais is our exploitation C... He could be upgraded. But is upgrading DD with couturier wise ? Now we'll have 3 Shutdown C ?
Lars Eller... Good enough for the 2nd line, plays the 3rd line in a second toughest matchup role. Who would be an upgrade over him ? Surely not Couturier. Can fill in for the two others in case of injuries
Alex Galchenyuk, Can fill ill for DD in case of injuries.
Halpern, Another shutdown C...
Dumont... Good 4th line C, could fill in the 3rd line in a shutdown-energy line role.
White, Good fourth line C.
Leblanc and Bournival are good enough for 3rd or fourth line duties. Both can either be explotation C or second/third toughest matchup C.
Nokelainen Another shutdown C...

Yeah, all those players are good enough for the 4th line AND UP.

How many teams are deeper (Not as in front loaded, which you seem to confound.)

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04-05-2013, 04:02 PM
  #53
FanHabtic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
yet you want Philly to do the same. Trade Couts for 2-3 lesser pieces. No thanks.

Unless Philly gets what they are looking for, they should be holding onto him and let him develop. Trading him for a D-man with similar upside makes sense. And if everyone is so worried about him, stop trying to trade for him.
If you actually read my posts you would see that i do not want Couturier at all! He is painfully slow and i question his offensive game and overall potential!

I fail to see any team trading away a top tier dman for a package including lesser players like Couts. The irony is that you would refuse a deal for what you consider a package of lesser players yet expect to do the same to get a to tier dman!

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04-05-2013, 04:11 PM
  #54
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Couturier would be a luxury, but why would Montreal trade for him when they already have Eller and Galchenyuk as big young centers and also Pleks and DD as top-6 centres? Habs have bigger needs for the short/mid term. If they get Couts they are going to have to make more moves to make room for him.

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04-05-2013, 04:13 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
If you actually read my posts you would see that i do not want Couturier at all! He is painfully slow and i question his offensive game and overall potential!

I fail to see any team trading away a top tier dman for a package including lesser players like Couts. The irony is that you would refuse a deal for what you consider a package of lesser players yet expect to do the same to get a to tier dman!
Every team in the league would like Sean Couturier on their team. Where he fits and what role he plays would be different in a lot of cases, but he would still be coveted. I always laugh when people know exactly what type of player Couturier is going to turn into; from Flyers fans calling him the next Ron Francis to you suggesting he's going to turn into a fourth liner. There is no possible way to know what his top level is at this point. I would still bet on him being a good to great player though.

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04-05-2013, 04:29 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
Why would someome trade a high end asset like a top end dman for lesser assets like Couts and other Flyer throwins?
Wow, did you really just say that... That is exactly what you're trying to do for Couturier....

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04-05-2013, 04:35 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Pierce Hawthorne View Post
Wow, did you really just say that... That is exactly what you're trying to do for Couturier....
Please show me where i am trying to trade anyone for Couturier. It is my opinion that he is overrated, painfully slow, offensively challenged and his high-end potential is that of a 2nd line centerman. That's my opinion of him. I wouldn't overpay for a player of this type.

I just find it funny that certain Flyer posters are so high and mighty about accepting a package of "lesser" players for Couts yet that is exactly their plan to acquire a top-end dman in a trade.

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04-05-2013, 04:37 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Pierce Hawthorne View Post
Wow, did you really just say that... That is exactly what you're trying to do for Couturier....
Is Beaulieu really lesser than Couturier though ? Both have their flaws. One is being brought up slowly and the other one was rushed.

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04-05-2013, 04:38 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Every team in the league would like Sean Couturier on their team. Where he fits and what role he plays would be different in a lot of cases, but he would still be coveted. I always laugh when people know exactly what type of player Couturier is going to turn into; from Flyers fans calling him the next Ron Francis to you suggesting he's going to turn into a fourth liner. There is no possible way to know what his top level is at this point. I would still bet on him being a good to great player though.
I don't see any teams dealing away young potential #1 dmen or current top-end dmen for the likes of Couturier. You don't trade away these types of defencemen for lesser players. Take a look at the upcoming UFA market for defencemen and the lack of top-end defencemen. That should tell you something. Even Philly locked up an aging Timmonen as a result of talent black-hole of UFA market.

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04-05-2013, 04:40 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Is Beaulieu really lesser than Couturier though ? Both have their flaws. One is being brought up slowly and the other one was rushed.
If we look at their potential, Beaulieu in my opinion has higher potential (at his position) than Couturier (at his position). When you look at development, there is no question Couturier is ahead of Beaulieu which definitely counts for something.

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04-05-2013, 04:50 PM
  #61
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Pass from the flyers. Couts isn't going for anything short of a true top pairing #1 pmd.

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04-05-2013, 04:50 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
If we look at their potential, Beaulieu in my opinion has higher potential (at his position) than Couturier (at his position). When you look at development, there is no question Couturier is ahead of Beaulieu which definitely counts for something.
No doubt about that. But I think Beaulieu could step in right now and be a good #5 and second PP QB. Which I think is pretty much equal to the role Coots plays.
I think management wants consecutive Calders

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04-05-2013, 04:53 PM
  #63
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Don't get the huge hype around Couturier. Nerver did either. He's good, but nothing that warrants a drastic overpayment. I'd pick B. Schenn ten times out of ten before him. He really impressed me the few times the Habs played against the Flyers. Couturier, not so much.

Considering the Habs are fine going forward at center, I see absolutely no incentitive to go after him.

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04-05-2013, 05:05 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by RogenIsTheMan View Post
Pass from the flyers. Couts isn't going for anything short of a true top pairing #1 pmd.
If that is true then its Safe to say that Couts isn't going anywhere.

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04-05-2013, 06:04 PM
  #65
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Don't get the huge hype around Couturier. Nerver did either. He's good, but nothing that warrants a drastic overpayment. I'd pick B. Schenn ten times out of ten before him. He really impressed me the few times the Habs played against the Flyers. Couturier, not so much.

Considering the Habs are fine going forward at center, I see absolutely no incentitive to go after him.
I'm probably one of very few Flyers fans that will agree with you on this so watch out haha.

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04-05-2013, 06:28 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by RogenIsTheMan View Post
Pass from the flyers. Couts isn't going for anything short of a true top pairing #1 pmd.
And which team will trade that for him. Seriously. I have no doubt that the pmd was a target, so, what kind of package would it take? Couts + prospect + 2nd?

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04-05-2013, 07:02 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Don't get the huge hype around Couturier. Nerver did either. He's good, but nothing that warrants a drastic overpayment. I'd pick B. Schenn ten times out of ten before him. He really impressed me the few times the Habs played against the Flyers. Couturier, not so much.

Considering the Habs are fine going forward at center, I see absolutely no incentitive to go after him.
I have same opinion as you. B. Schenn impressed me much more than Couts.

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04-05-2013, 07:27 PM
  #68
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As a Flyer fan, I do not mind the OP offer....though I think we could get more for Couts probably.....especially now that is he is starting to play decent again....

Not a bad offer...mayby we could pry Tinoridi from you guys instead though....is he not the better defensive prospect for you guys?

I could see for sure in the future some dealings between our 2 teams.....we need young solid d man badly and you guys have some really nice prospects...

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04-05-2013, 07:38 PM
  #69
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As a Flyer fan, I do not mind the OP offer....though I think we could get more for Couts probably.....especially now that is he is starting to play decent again....

Not a bad offer...mayby we could pry Tinoridi from you guys instead though....is he not the better defensive prospect for you guys?

I could see for sure in the future some dealings between our 2 teams.....we need young solid d man badly and you guys have some really nice prospects...
i wouldn't trade you Tinordi for couturier either, but then again, i think Couturier will top out as a 20/20 two-way center.

tinordi and Beaulieu are not going to get dealt. Ellis and pateryn might be available at some point but not our 1sts from the previous two-years. We also have Dietz and Thrower. We're loaded on D...Habs are building from the D out...

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04-05-2013, 07:41 PM
  #70
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i wouldn't trade you Tinordi for couturier either, but then again, i think Couturier will top out as a 20/20 two-way center.

tinordi and Beaulieu are not going to get dealt. Ellis and pateryn might be available at some point but not our 1sts from the previous two-years. We also have Dietz and Thrower. We're loaded on D...Habs are building from the D out...
lmao.

Couturier scored 27 points last year as an 18/19 year old, while playing some of the toughest minutes on the Flyers, with zero offensive linemates and 0 PP time.

Ok.

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04-05-2013, 07:43 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
lmao.

Couturier scored 27 points last year as an 18/19 year old, while playing some of the toughest minutes on the Flyers, with zero offensive linemates and 0 PP time.

Ok.
That is hardly a ringing endorsement for Couturier.

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04-05-2013, 07:47 PM
  #72
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That is hardly a ringing endorsement for Couturier.
Totally.

"Sean Couturier looked like he belonged in the NHL almost from day 1. His coach seemed to agree, and Couturier was trusted to play in high-leverage defensive situations despite the fact that he was "just" an 18 year old rookie. Couturier was often on the ice against the other teamís first or second scoring line at even strength, and was often paired with fellow rookie Matt Read on the teamís first or second PK unit. This kind of usage for an 18 year old rookie has to be pretty rare."

http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...harts_2012.pdf



"This time last summer, I considered Couturier and Schenn 1A and 1B prospects, but this year I've flipped the A and the B. Couturier had the more successful season, logging unusually tough defensive minutes for his age. He's not just a checker, however, as he has a ton of offensive potential as well."

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1376

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04-05-2013, 07:51 PM
  #73
FanHabtic
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
Totally.

"Sean Couturier looked like he belonged in the NHL almost from day 1. His coach seemed to agree, and Couturier was trusted to play in high-leverage defensive situations despite the fact that he was "just" an 18 year old rookie. Couturier was often on the ice against the other team’s first or second scoring line at even strength, and was often paired with fellow rookie Matt Read on the team’s first or second PK unit. This kind of usage for an 18 year old rookie has to be pretty rare."

http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...harts_2012.pdf



"This time last summer, I considered Couturier and Schenn 1A and 1B prospects, but this year I've flipped the A and the B. Couturier had the more successful season, logging unusually tough defensive minutes for his age. He's not just a checker, however, as he has a ton of offensive potential as well."

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1376
Scouting reports hardly prove a players value. Couturier's 12 pts and horrendous plus minus ans horrid skating speaks volumes.

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04-05-2013, 08:06 PM
  #74
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Scouting reports hardly prove a players value. Couturier's 12 pts and horrendous plus minus ans horrid skating speaks volumes.
Scouring reports?

Do you even hockey?

They were both analytic views on the season Couturier had last year.

lol Habs fans are hilarious. Galchenyuk only has 17 points this year. He sucks, amirite?

Only 12 forwards in the entire NHL with at least 20 games played start in the offensive zone less than Couturier. He starts almost 70% of his shifts in the defensive zone. All the while facing the toughest opposing lines, with linemates like Max Talbot and Zac Rinaldo.

He's playing some of the toughest minutes (zone starts, opponent matchups, linemates, etc.) in the entire NHL.

His job, at this point in his career, is not to put up points. That is just gravy. He's playing in an extreme defensive role because he's already one of the better defensive forwards in the game.

Keep on undervaluing, him, Habs fans. He's a blue-chip stud C and I sure as hell wouldn't part with him for lesser players like Tinordi and Beaulieu.

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04-05-2013, 08:17 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
Scouring reports?

Do you even hockey?

They were both analytic views on the season Couturier had last year.

lol Habs fans are hilarious. Galchenyuk only has 17 points this year. He sucks, amirite?

Only 12 forwards in the entire NHL with at least 20 games played start in the offensive zone less than Couturier. He starts almost 70% of his shifts in the defensive zone. All the while facing the toughest opposing lines, with linemates like Max Talbot and Zac Rinaldo.

He's playing some of the toughest minutes (zone starts, opponent matchups, linemates, etc.) in the entire NHL.

His job, at this point in his career, is not to put up points. That is just gravy. He's playing in an extreme defensive role because he's already one of the better defensive forwards in the game.

Keep on undervaluing, him, Habs fans. He's a blue-chip stud C and I sure as hell wouldn't part with him for lesser players like Tinordi and Beaulieu.
Typical Flyer fan cherry picking stats...

First, Galchenyuk has 17 points in 37 games. Work out his PPG average and compare to Couturier's last season and this season.

Second, If Couturier is a bluechip defensive stalwart then his stats certainly don't show it. Putting aside his horrible skating and lack of points, how do you explain his second worst plus/minus on the team?

Third, the fact that you call Couturier a bluechip stud C clearly shows how badly you overrate him. Because news flash, he's hardly a stud nor blue-chip after the performance he has put in this season. You can make an argument that he has regressed.

Couturier has to be the most overrated player in the league. Yakupov a close second. Its disgraceful.

Couturier reminds me of Latendresse. Both have size and horrible skating. Latendresse has/had more offensive potential. Couturier is better defensively. Both are French Canadian. Both are (in Latendresse's case was) terribly overrated by their respective fanbases.

If Beaulieu was a Flyer, you would probably call him a stud gold-chip prospect! (or maybe platinum)


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